What cue stroke are you using?

[BeiberLvr]

Sarcastically, is that diagram pictured from above the ball or is it a view from the side of the ball looking into the rail?

I hope you see that difference.

On what axis are you trying to demonstrate? Hit a ball TOO low or TOO high & you can mis your position by not controlling the vertical spin on the ball.

You & your diagram are exhibiting one dimension & one aspect which also exhibits one dimensional thinking in this discussion & perhaps in actual play.

No offense but some of you are starting to make me feel like Patrick Johnson.

As I have said in another post, I think the collective 'you' protest TOO much & makes me wonder why. Remember it is not just me that says that the tip is arcing down, up, down but Bob Jewitt's chart comparing tip movement for both still & dropped elbow strokes. Maybe you & the rest should be arguing with Mr. Jewitt.

randyg made an assertion that the tip moves 'level'/straight for several inches in a fixed elbow pendulum stroke. I asked how because I don't see it & Bob Jewitt's charts do not support that assertion. NO PBIA instructor has given any explanation as to how that assertion can be true, bio-mechanically or otherwise. Renfro/Chris (apparently he has switched from the pendulum after wasting many years) has offered the best possibility in saying that a certain grip action might be the answer, but if so it is in the opposite direction of the pendulum swing & would be unnatural to the montra of letting the cue do the work & would also need to be timed & coordinated. So...would that be more simple than to just let the elbow drop when it wants to to keep the cue moving straight?

As I have also said once before, it seems to me that maybe you me like you & Larry are trying to talk yourselves out of 'buyers remorse' more than anything else. Keep in mind that I have received quite a few PMs stating just how much money & time that some have wasted to the point of near total frustration regard the 'pendulum stroke' as taught to them by a certified instructor. I understand that nothing can be 100% successful, but am just pointing out that the pendulum stroke was not as effective for them as they wanted their stroke to be so they switched.

As it always should be, different strokes for different folks. If the pendulum stroke works for you or anyone else & you are happy with it, fine. Stay with it. I just feel that the different parameters should be available for each individual so that they can make their own determination.

Best Wishes,
Rick

As Neil already pointed out, there's a difference between level and straight.

I can draw or follow a ball full table without dropping my elbow. So answer me this. How?

And no offense, but you're not even close to being on the same level as PJ when it comes to pool, and I actually like you a lot more than him.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I was trying not to get involved, but now you're just arguing semantics. No, I'm stating the 3D reality & it appears that Neil & Sean have been successful in clouding that reality with semantics & vernacular. The straight line in cueing is based on one thing, and one thing only. I don't think so. See the following. But in my opinion hitting that 3mm by 3mm spot is easier to do consistantly with a cue that is moving straight in EVERY direction & NOT just on the side to side plane. Hitting the intended spot on the CB. Yes hitting the intended spot on the target is important but hitting it with the exact up & down angle that one wants is just as important.

If one aims at center CB, and hits center CB, then the cue is moving in a straight line. NO... the cue could be moving on an arc as it hits the center aim point & be moving more on an upward or downward angle than intended.The tip pointing down after contact is just as irrelevant as the elbow dropping, provided it's done after contact. The tip pointing down has nothing to do with the discussion. The tip can be pointing down in a straight line piston type stroke if the cue is angled down on that straight line.

Here's a little diagram of a before and after pendulum stroke.

Looks pretty straight to me.

Sarcastically, is that diagram pictured from above the ball or is it a view from the side of the ball looking into the rail?

I hope you can see the difference.

On what axis are you trying to demonstrate? Hit a ball TOO low or TOO high & you can mis your position by not controlling the vertical spin on the ball.

You & your diagram are exhibiting one dimension & one aspect which also exhibits one dimensional thinking in this discussion & perhaps in actual play.

No offense but some of you are starting to make me feel like Patrick Johnson.

As I have said in another post, I think the collective 'you' protest TOO much & makes me wonder why. Remember it is not just me that says that tip is arcinc down, up, down but Bob Jewitt's chart comparing tip movement for both still & dropped elbow strokes. Maybe you & the rest should be arguing with Mr. Jewitt.

randyG made an assertion that the tip moves 'level'/straight for several inches in a fixed elbow pendulum stroke. I asked how so because i don't see it & mr. Jewitt's charts do NOT suppoet that assertion. No PBIA instructor has offered any explantion, bio-mechanical or otherwise to support that assertion. Renfor/Chris (apparently he has switch from the pendulum after many wasted years, I believe is how he said it) has suggested that it might have to do with a certain grip action. But that action would be in the opposite direction of the pendulum swing & would require coordination & timing & also go against the montra of just let the cue do the work. So would that be more simple than to just let the elbow drop when it wants to keep the cue moving straight.

As I have said once before, it seems to me that you & bbb might be trying to talk yourselves out of 'buyers remorse' more than anything else. I have received quite a few PMs from people saying how much time & money that they have wasted learning the pendulum stroke from a certified instructor only to switch & have much greater success. Now I know that nothing can be 100% successful & that is why it is different strokes for different folks, as it should be. One size does not fit all.

I'm not asking you, bbb, or anyone to change their stroke. I just think that all of the parameters should be made clear so that one can make their own determinations.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Tony_in_MD]

English, here is your WHOLE post, how did I take your sentence in red out of context?

Are you going to prove your statement or not by taking me up on this or are you going to give me more excuses?

Edit: Oh and when did I say ANYTHING about money?

Final Edit: This is a pool forum not a knitting club, when you say something off the wall and are called up on it, don't take it personal, or try to weasel your way out.

Do Crayfish make the same sound as Crickets?

Just to clarify ONE of Sean's misleading suggestive statements.

I never watch the cue moving during the stroke.

I doubt that anyone that uses a straight moving cue like in a piston stroke ever watches the cue movement during the stroke.

Until I started using TOI after CJ introduced it, I looked at the 'spot' that I wanted to send the cue ball while making the stroke. On certain rare shots I have looked at the cue ball exactly where I wanted the tip to contact it while making the stroke as with TOI.

I can honestly say & will affirm on a stack of Bibles that in all of the I don't know how many cue strokes that I have made in my 47 years of playing the game that I have never once watched the cue stick moving during the stroke.

I, & I am sure that very very many if not all that use a straight moving cue, can close the eyes & make a straight stroke. (I would not recommend turning the head as Sean stated.)
To suggest that one has to watch the cue move to make it move straight is not only misleading either intentionally or unintentional but is ludicrous in its foundation.

To another point regarding longevity of something being taught, I am fairly sure that Scott Lee has changed what he teaches regarding whether to look at the OB or the CB during the stroke. Was what he taught earlier correct & is what he teaches now incorrect or is it the other way around.

How many years was it thought & taught that this planet was flat & at the center of the universe & ALL revolved around it? Where they correct for all of those centuries?

IMO, Those types of 'arguments' in an attempt to prove a point are illogical & representative of a closed mind that says, it's always been that way, it must be true. I don't know where science would be today if everyone had that type of thinking.

Best to ALL & sorry for the derailment.
Rick

 

[CreeDo]

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,

I'm not trying to get you to switch.

Read this again

The straight line in cueing is based on one thing, and one thing only. Hitting the intended spot on the CB.

If you and I were both given a straight in shot, and hit the CB at the exact same spot at the exact same speed. I could keep my elbow still and you could drop yours. The results would be identical.

Jon,

Believe me. I am NOT ever going to switch to a complete pendulum stroke & I am not asking you or anyone else to switch from what they are using. Please read my earlier post to you regarding all of the parameters being made available for each individual to make there own determinations.

In your hypothetical, the results would be identical ONLY IF both tips hit the cue ball on the exact same spot with the cue on the exact same angle AND ONLY IF they both travel through contact with the ball on the EXACT same path. In other words the cue must be at the exact same angle when it makes contact with the ball & must travel on the exact same path through contact for the results to be 'identical'

Look at it from the other point of view. Look at it from above as in your diagram. Put the tip on the ball with the cue aimed at the pocket. Now rotate the back end of the cue so that it is angle midway on the rails but with the tip on the same point on the ball. Will you get identical result?

Let me ask you. How long did the 'knowledgeable' people say that this planet was flat & at the center of the universe & everything revolved around it & everyone believed them & even repeated it as fact?

Where would science & we be if everyone drank the 'Kool Aide' of that time & few individuals could not or did not think for themselves.

I forget the exact details but a professor brought in a guest speaker. The speaker totally went against everything that the professor had been espousing on the subject. Everyone thought that the professor was going to blow a fuse. But instead at the conclusion he walked up to the guest speaker & shook his hand & thanked him for showing him the errors in his thinking.

The professor had an open mind.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sorry . Duplicate.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

....................

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well I thought you would like the first shot at the parameters but OK here it is.


Stroke the cueball firmly (no lag stroke) from the headspot, up and back to you. It must come back and hit your tip and it must be done with a draw stroke and an open bridge with your eyes shut (or turning your head if you like)

Remember you said most if not all people who use straight moving can stroke their cue straight with their eyes closed.

We need the cueball to help us tell us how straight this stroke is right or left, and of course the video will show us how straight the cue moves in the other direction.

What do you think 10/10 20/20 or 50/50 in one video session, no splicing of the best shots over multiple days, weeks or years?

Okay, I will admit that perhaps I overstated a bit by saying, 'if not everyone'.

But the point of the 'discussion' is not for a side to side comparison as your proposition suggests. The discussion is in regards to the vertical direction because in a true complete pendulum the cue is 'rocking' with the butt going up, down, & up while the tip arcs down, up, & back down.

My point was that one does not have to watch the cue move to make a piston like stroke as Sean was suggesting & that almost anyone can make their piston like stroke with their eyes closed.

So no bet on that. One can have a 'hook' flaw in their 'pendulum' stroke & one can have a 'hook' flaw in their piston stroke.

But why all of the diversion. Just explain in no uncertain terms how the cue moves straight for several inches with no up or down movement in a fixed elbow stroke.

Do that & this 'discussion' is ended & as I have stated several times my opinion of a fixed elbow stroke will probably be changed for the better.

So here is my counter. Let me see a super slow motion of you doing a complete fixed elbow stroke where the elbow does not move & the cue tip moves straight with no up or down arcing for several inches. Then if you would be so kind please explain what bio-mechanics allowed you to accomplish it.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I used to have an almost pure pendulum. Bc of several issues with elbow and shoulder i had to change it.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100 mit Tapatalk 2

Ingo,

I'm sorry but I can not resist.

Did the use of the pure pendulum cause you to have issues with your elbow and shoulder?:wink:

Did they lock up from lack of use?:wink:

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, it's got nothing to do with liking you. It's got nothing to do with what stroke you prefer to use. It's got nothing to do with what is the best stroke. It's got everything to do with you not understanding at all what you are so fixated on disputing. With you using terms to mean something else than what the entire rest of the world means. With you constantly harping against what instructors teach without having a clue what they teach. With you making crap up all the time. And with you not understanding even the basic sentences without twisting them around to something else.

You want people to leave you alone? Quit posting about things you don't know about. It's that simple. Don't you realize that we are also sick and tired of having to point out where you are wrong on the same things over and over? And, it's not just a matter of being wrong about something. It's your fixation on being against what 90% of the instructors teach. Constantly tearing and ripping and twisting every little statement you can come up with. Just to try and make it look like you are helping someone, when all you are doing is hurting others. Just in this thread alone you have made a number of statements that are absolutely absurd. It's almost like you are in some parallel world and don't see things like the rest of us do.

You are like the Jesse Jackson of the pendulum stroke. He probably thinks he's really trying to help too. But, he is so misinformed that all he does is make things worse. And he refuses to look at the actual truth, it's got to be his way. Other topics, you've made some good observations and posts. Nobody hounds you on every post you make. We do hound you on the B.S. Quit trying to hard to be liked, and just try to be knowledgeable and factual for a change.

Sorry you did not recognize that I was being facetious.

Please answer this question.

Is Bob Jewitt's chart for tip travel for a fixed elbow stroke WRONG?

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I was not propositioning a side to side comparison as you suggest, I only wanted you to try it.

Pendulum vs any other stroke don't matter, I am fairly sure that the best cueists in the world will not be able to do this with 100 percent accuracy.

I am glad you have seen the light on at least this little thing.

You want an answer on Randy's statement, ask Randy, I will not speak for him. Contact him, his phone number is published.

I am happy to see a student make contact with a level (or within few degrees of stroke) As the tip is on the ball for 1-2 thousands of a second the ball is long gone when the stoke is completed.

This also why some instructors do not relay only on our eyes, we use video capture, and review the stroke with the student one frame at a time. These frames are fraction of seconds. I think my camera does 30 frames per second. I guess you can say we real-eyes our eyes can deceive us. "The camera Sees what our Eyes Deceive" (This may be my new tagline.)

BTW you said that I took your statement out of context and something to the effect about money.

I said anything about money, a wager can be many things. I would have been happy just having you try it, and report back.

Okay, I will admit that perhaps I overstated a bit by saying, 'if not everyone'.

But the point of the 'discussion' is not for a side to side comparison as your proposition suggests. The discussion is in regards to the vertical direction because in a true complete pendulum the cue is 'rocking' with the butt going up, down, & up while the tip arcs down, up, & back down.

My point was that one does not have to watch the cue move to make a piston like stroke as Sean was suggesting & that almost anyone can make their piston like stroke with their eyes closed.

So no bet on that. One can have a 'hook' flaw in their 'pendulum' stroke & one can have a 'hook' flaw in their piston stroke.

But why all of the diversion. Just explain in no uncertain terms how the cue moves straight for several inches with no up or down movement in a fixed elbow stroke.

Do that & this 'discussion' is ended & as I have stated several times my opinion of a fixed elbow stroke will probably be changed for the better.

So here is my counter. Let me see a super slow motion of you doing a complete fixed elbow stroke where the elbow does not move & the cue tip moves straight with no up or down arcing for several inches. Then if you would be so kind please explain what bio-mechanics allowed you to accomplish it.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Geesh, Rick. The diagram shows a straight stroke. What you are talking about is referred to as a level stroke. Please at least learn what the terms mean to the rest of the world.

Pool does not change physics, geometry, etc. or common language.

But I will play with your semantics for a bit.

By your 'lingo' the discussion that stems from randG's assertion has nothing to do with a 'straight' stroke in the side to side direction. It has to do with the up & down direction.

Answer this, if the butt is 'jacked up' is the cue 'level'?

Also, does the cue move more 'level' in a complete fixed elbow 'pendulum stroke' or does it move more 'level' in a complete 'piston stroke'?

Are you happier when I & others ask you questions?

 

[RRfireblade]

ENGLISH!, your too damn gullible, stop letting theses guys have fun at your expense.

Everyone here knows that the pivot stroke causes the rear of the cue to move through a arc and subsequently, the tip moves on an inverse of that arc.

The ONLY point that truly matters is that the cue tip consistently returns precisely the same point at impact in relation to where it started. It doesn't matter in any way how it does that, the CB will never know what the cue tip was doing milliseconds before impact.

For many people, fixing the whole system to one hinged point, (pivot stroke) is just easier and more reliable. It's easier for many to learn, especially those that don't put a ton of time into playing, and it's also easier for most to repeat consistently. This is why it is so commonly taught by so many instructors, it offers many gains and very few shortcomings.

Bottom line, there is no "Best", only what's best for you.

Stop feeding the troll attack , they're having way too much fun.

 

[ENGLISH!]

As Neil already pointed out, there's a difference between level and straight.

I can draw or follow a ball full table without dropping my elbow. So answer me this. How?

And no offense, but you're not even close to being on the same level as PJ when it comes to pool, and I actually like you a lot more than him.

Jon,

Thanks. I was not comparing myself to PJ. However my opinion of his level is apparently different than yours.

Yes, the term 'level' refers to one direction.

The word 'straight' actually refers to 'in all directions' when talking about the physics, geometry, etc, when trying to discuss or explain what is going on on the table.

Did I ever say that one can not draw or follow a ball with a fixed elbow pendulum stoke. Why are you asking me to explain 'How'?

You were talking about 'identical' I have explained the ONLY way that the results will be 'identical'.

I have asked you a couple of questions that you have not answered at all.

Would you rather try to throw a baseball to hit another baseball by throwing it straight or by throwing a curve ball?

When you use the mechanical bridge, do you rock your cue on it so the tip arcs down, up, & back down or do you move it straight so the tip moves straight back & forth away from & to the target?

Last question. Can you re-size your diagram. I think it is messy with the navigation logistics of the thread?

Thanks again & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Neil]

Pool does not change physics, geometry, etc. or common language.

But I will play with your semantics for a bit.

By your 'lingo' the discussion that stems from randG's assertion has nothing to do with a 'straight' stroke in the side to side direction. It has to do with the up & down direction.

Answer this, if the butt is 'jacked up' is the cue 'level'?

Also, does the cue move more 'level' in a complete fixed elbow 'pendulum stroke' or does it move more 'level' in a complete 'piston stroke'?

Are you happier when I & others ask you questions?

Rick, I don't mind answering questions from serious people. I do mind when it is done like you are now doing. Now you are just trying to be a jerk. You are succeeding admirably! If you can't answer those questions yourself, you need to immediately get away from anything pool related.

 

[Neil]

ENGLISH!, your too damn gullible, stop letting theses guys have fun at your expense.

Everyone here knows that the pivot stroke causes the rear of the cue to move through a arc and subsequently, the tip moves on an inverse of that arc.

The ONLY point that truly matters is that the cue tip consistently returns precisely the same point at impact in relation to where it started. It doesn't matter in any way how it does that, the CB will never know what the cue tip was doing milliseconds before impact.

For many people, fixing the whole system to one hinged point, (pivot stroke) is just easier and more reliable. It's easier for many to learn, especially those that don't put a ton of time into playing, and it's also easier for most to repeat consistently. This is why it is so commonly taught by so many instructors, it offers many gains and very few shortcomings.

Bottom line, there is no "Best", only what's best for you.

Stop feeding the troll attack , they're having way too much fun.

We have been saying the same thing you just said, but we are the trolls? My gosh, some of you have reading problems.

 

[ENGLISH!]

English, here is your WHOLE post, how did I take your sentence in red out of context?

Are you going to prove your statement or not by taking me up on this or are you going to give me more excuses?

Edit: Oh and when did I say ANYTHING about money?

Final Edit: This is a pool forum not a knitting club, when you say something off the wall and are called up on it, don't take it personal, or try to weasel your way out.

Do Crayfish make the same sound as Crickets?

Please see post #84.

Taking one sentence out of several paragraphs can make a statement have a whole different appearance.

The point of that post was to point out that one does not have to watch the cue move to perform a 'piston stroke' as Sean was suggesting. Also the focus of this 'dispute' is not on the side to side aspect of either stroke but on the up & down aspect of each stroke.

Your taking that one statement apart from the rest leaves a lot out.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, I know.

I'd much rather play Pong than this.

I may have to retreat just to catch my breath as the bombardments are coming from several directions.

It's getting a bit difficult to keep them in perspective.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I was not propositioning a side to side comparison as you suggest, I only wanted you to try it.

Pendulum vs any other stroke don't matter, I am fairly sure that the best cueists in the world will not be able to do this with 100 percent accuracy.

I am glad you have seen the light on at least this little thing.

You want an answer on Randy's statement, ask Randy, I will not speak for him. Contact him, his phone number is published.

I am happy to see a student make contact with a level (or within few degrees of stroke) As the tip is on the ball for 1-2 thousands of a second the ball is long gone when the stoke is completed.

This also why some instructors do not relay only on our eyes, we use video capture, and review the stroke with the student one frame at a time. These frames are fraction of seconds. I think my camera does 30 frames per second. I guess you can say we real-eyes our eyes can deceive us. "The camera Sees what our Eyes Deceive" (This may be my new tagline.)

BTW you said that I took your statement out of context and something to the effect about money.

I said anything about money, a wager can be many things. I would have been happy just having you try it, and report back.

Tony,

I did ask Randy in the thread where he first said it twice. He made no reply. That is why I opened the sweet spot thread for anyone to explain it.

When he made a small comment to clarify that 'several' meant two or more, I pointed out that two is a couple & to me several is more than two but that I would be happy with two. I asked him again at that time. He responded with a comment to the affect that maybe it is because we are not machines. I agreed but asked for more than just that as an explanation. Again, no reply.

I can certainly understand that you would not want to speak for Randy. But...you are a certified instructor & now I have asked you. But, to be clear do you agree with Randy's assertion & if so can you give an explanation that would show Bob Jewitt's charts to be wrong.

If it ain't so then say it ain't so. If it is, then please explain it. Not for me, but for everyone else, many of which only read AZB & never make a post.

Please explain it & change my mind regarding the pendulum stroke.
You might become a hero to Jon, Larry, & others.

Best Wishes,
Rick

As to your table suggestion, I don't do drills but I have done that on several occasions with success but not with my eyes closed & I have suggested it to other's just as you did, hit hard & low on the cue ball. I think we both know why to test it that way.

 

[Neil]

Tony,

I did ask Randy in the thread where he first said it twice. He made no reply. That is why I opened the sweet spot thread for anyone to explain it.

When he made a small comment to clarify that 'several' meant two or more, I pointed out that two is a couple & to me several is more than two but that I would be happy with two. I asked him again at that time. He responded with a comment to the affect that maybe it is because we are not machines. I agreed but asked for more than just that as an explanation. Again, no reply.

I can certainly understand that you would not want to speak for Randy. But...you are a certified instructor & now I have asked you. But, to be clear do you agree with Randy's assertion & if so can you give an explanation that would show Bob Jewitt's charts to be wrong.

If it ain't so then say it ain't so. If it is, then please explain it. Not for me, but for everyone else, many of which only read AZB & never make a post.

Please explain it & change my mind regarding the pendulum stroke.
You might become a hero to Jon, Larry, & others.

Best Wishes,
Rick

As to your table suggestion, I don't do drills but I have done that on several occasions with success but not with my eyes closed & I have suggested it to other's just as you did, hit hard & low on the cue ball. I think we both know why to test it that way.

Rick, just how many times do you need it explained to you? It's been explained to you in detail at least half a dozen times in the past. All you have to do it go to the table yourself and you will readily see the answers to your questions yourself. Yet, you keep harping on it like no one will help you. Randy is not going to say anymore to you because of how you act on here. He's not going to get in a pissing contest with you like you always want to do. You obviously don't really want to know, so he has left you alone.