What cue stroke are you using?

[Mikjary]

I was making zero connection to whatever definition of "pin" you might be thinking of. As to the stroke thing, I believe it can go either way: some guys will swipe through and others will piston through.

Lou Figueroa

Some players call it "digging in", to the cue ball. CJ has mentioned it a few times when he's talked about staying closer to center with cueing.

I think it's all dependent on the timing in the stroke. I've proved this to myself by an example. I get down on the shot and before I take my backstroke to shoot, I move my whole body forward or backward an inch or so. My timing is thrown off quite a bit. I can't seem to get the correct amount of spin/speed.

Best,
Mike

 

[gregcantrall]

Simple explanation

ENGISH!, the simple explanation is that as the cue approaches the tangent line the difference approaches 0. My explanation was that the cue tip variation from straight was 1/32 of an inch in 5 inches of travel at the sweet spot with a perfect pendulum stroke. I stand by that assertion.

Levers and leverage are the foundation of Bio-mechanics. I tried to show that due to the difference in the distance between the shooting hand and the bridge hand(the fulcrum) and the bridge to the cue ball any variation from straight at the shooting hand is diminished by a factor of approximately 5/1.

You seem to be set on placing Bob Jewett and RandyG in opposition. I contend that they are not. The cue does follow the path described by Bob and it does have a sweet spot that does not vary significantly from straight for several inches.

Perhaps I did sandbag my understanding of engineering principles and mathematics. You see, I did take a basic college course in mechanical engineering while a cadet at the United States Air Force Academy. My strong scores in mathematics helped to gain a Congressional appointment to same.

 

[Mikjary]

I take the misspelling as a sign of honor and respect. Just think Efrem, Effren and Segal. Nobody ever types Haul, though.

They would if his name was Foyer or Vestibule.

Best,
Mike

 

[BeiberLvr]

Neil,

Thank you for your detailed response. I'm glad you included a physical description to the question of what is "the angle of attack", for those who weren't familiar with it. Let's to take it a step further and apply it to each person's individual stroke and why they are all NOT created equal.

An advanced player's stroke "in relation to the table surface", describes their physical positioning during their stroke, but not descriptive of what they do to get into that position. I would like to see an examination of what we do to develop a high level stroke and define it. I think there isn't an actual definition of the parts making up the pool stroke because we don't know enough about its components. "Do this", is a limited teaching tool.

What separates the pro from the 20 year banger? Raising or lowering my cue butt, moving my hand backward or forward on my grip, shortening my bridge, etc., are all ways to change a stroke. I think the bickering in this thread can be summed up to a common denominator...timing.

The desired result in each stroke when applying the correct angle of attack, contact point, and speed, is dependent on the timing of hitting the cue ball. IOW, you will not achieve the correct angle of attack, speed, or contact point without the correct timing in your stroke.

This should be the basis of the discussion. Not the length of the flattening out of the stroke and its distance. At what point of the stroke is the cue ball being contacted? For most, it will change on 50% of their shots. The consistent pro will hit the cue ball 90% of the time not too early or late. They don't get the funny english or no english. Their timing is repeatable.

And yes, this thread has turned into a brawl. Neither side is backing down, so fagedaboudit! Every opinion is a piece of the puzzle. Nobody knows it all. If they do...please send me your PayPal info. I've got a few questions backing up on this end.

Best,
Mike

I can agree with that, and I believe I already said something similar in another thread, but without using the word 'timing'

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Neil,

Thank you for your detailed response. I'm glad you included a physical description to the question of what is "the angle of attack", for those who weren't familiar with it. Let's to take it a step further and apply it to each person's individual stroke and why they are all NOT created equal.

An advanced player's stroke "in relation to the table surface", describes their physical positioning during their stroke, but not descriptive of what they do to get into that position. I would like to see an examination of what we do to develop a high level stroke and define it. I think there isn't an actual definition of the parts making up the pool stroke because we don't know enough about its components. "Do this", is a limited teaching tool.

What separates the pro from the 20 year banger? Raising or lowering my cue butt, moving my hand backward or forward on my grip, shortening my bridge, etc., are all ways to change a stroke. I think the bickering in this thread can be summed up to a common denominator...timing.

The desired result in each stroke when applying the correct angle of attack, contact point, and speed, is dependent on the timing of hitting the cue ball. IOW, you will not achieve the correct angle of attack, speed, or contact point without the correct timing in your stroke.

This should be the basis of the discussion. Not the length of the flattening out of the stroke and its distance. At what point of the stroke is the cue ball being contacted? For most, it will change on 50% of their shots. The consistent pro will hit the cue ball 90% of the time not too early or late. They don't get the funny english or no english. Their timing is repeatable.

And yes, this thread has turned into a brawl. Neither side is backing down, so fagedaboudit! Every opinion is a piece of the puzzle. Nobody knows it all. If they do...please send me your PayPal info. I've got a few questions backing up on this end.

Best,
Mike

Good post, the consistent pro has the ability to hit point on the cue ball with their tip at a consistently higher rate than others. (note I did not say 100 percent of the time as we are human) Once that is obtained you can begin to show real progress in other areas of the game.

Bert Kinister summed it up in the 60 minute workout for nineball saying that the "difference between a good player and a great player is the quality of their stroke". He was not referring to pendulum or piston, he was referring to the ability to hit the precise place on the cueball that you intended in shot number 1 of his workout video.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I kind of figured you had more than 2 years of high school physics, and 2 semesters of it in college.

:thumbup:

ENGISH!, the simple explanation is that as the cue approaches the tangent line the difference approaches 0. My explanation was that the cue tip variation from straight was 1/32 of an inch in 5 inches of travel at the sweet spot with a perfect pendulum stroke. I stand by that assertion.

Levers and leverage are the foundation of Bio-mechanics. I tried to show that due to the difference in the distance between the shooting hand and the bridge hand(the fulcrum) and the bridge to the cue ball any variation from straight at the shooting hand is diminished by a factor of approximately 5/1.

You seem to be set on placing Bob Jewett and RandyG in opposition. I contend that they are not. The cue does follow the path described by Bob and it does have a sweet spot that does not vary significantly from straight for several inches.

Perhaps I did sandbag my understanding of engineering principles and mathematics. You see, I did take a basic college course in mechanical engineering while a cadet at the United States Air Force Academy. My strong scores in mathematics helped to gain a Congressional appointment to same.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Greg,

If the line is centered at the bottom of the arc then when the rod swings up & takes the line with it the front side of the line arcs down below the line of level as the back end of the line moves above the line of level. What you did SETS the line level during the course & range of the pendulum swing. Your line IS SET level & straight (Unless I misunderstand you). You have formed a triangle with the rod at the end of the swing being two sides & a level line at the bottom. But the bottom of a pendulum is not straight. Tracking the swing of the bottom of a pendulum forms a curved arc as the rod is swung.

If you keep the line attached to the rod representing the tangent line perpendicular to the rod/forearm the angle of it in constantly changing. It only returns to a level position at one point & for one instant before the angle changes again 'immediately' on the other side.

Bob Jewitt's chart of the analysis of tracking the tip travel for a fixed elbow stroke indicates 3 arcs, one as the cue is swung up, two as it is swung down & 3 as it is swung up on the front side.

That is why I found randG's assertion very interesting. Bob Jewitts' chart of the analysis of the tip travel for an elbow drop stroke tracked the tip movement straight but with the elbow moving in the up down directions.

The conclusion of that analysis was that by taking the moving elbow out that the stroke would be 'more simple' 'like a pendulum'.

That is another discussion.

The point is that the pendulum stroke is called more simple with the elbow stationary & then randyG asserts that the tip also moves straight for several inches. My question was basically, 'how & why'.

I THINK we ALL know that for that to happen something has to change during the swing of the pendulum. The only place for that to happen is in the connect from the end of the forearm to the connection to the cue, which is what Renfro/Chris pointed out is rarely if ever talked about.

I thought I might get an answer as to what is going on there but only guys like Chris, Mike, & Pidge have any ideas or are willing to talk about it.

So, IF the tip is moving straight as asserted for several inches what exactly is going on in the area of the connection to the cue & the wrist that would make or allow straight/'level' tip travel as is the case of Bob Jewitt's chart for tracking the elbow drop stroke?

Again, I appreciate your efforts but I'm looking for a simple explanation that 'everyone' can understand.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

You got your answer, you just need to take Neil off of ignore and view the video.



" The camera sees what the eyes deceive."

 

[lfigueroa]

Some players call it "digging in", to the cue ball. CJ has mentioned it a few times when he's talked about staying closer to center with cueing.

I think it's all dependent on the timing in the stroke. I've proved this to myself by an example. I get down on the shot and before I take my backstroke to shoot, I move my whole body forward or backward an inch or so. My timing is thrown off quite a bit. I can't seem to get the correct amount of spin/speed.

Best,
Mike

I always feel that, when I'm playing my best, I can go through the CB at all different kinds of angles. It's odd, but I can only make it happen occasionally.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

I've tried both and in each instance the tip lowers on the way back slightly. On the way forward it starts to rise. And then on the the portion that would be after contact it lowers again. The movement of the tip was very small. As is the arc in a pendulum stroke. It goes along with what I thought and that is it counteracts any diversion from the horizontal plane that a pendulum stroke would cause. More than enough to let me keep my cue level for 8 inches and let me hit the CB on the vertical axis where I intend.

Pidge,

First of all, thanks for indulging me.

That IS what the tip does.

Please forgive me, but I don't understand your statement in blue. If that 'mini pendulum' wrist movement makes the tip move in the same directions & at the relative same points & time during the swing of the larger pendulum, how do you deduce that it counteracts the diversion from the horizontal plane that would happen as the longer forearm/rod swings along the path of the larger pendulum.

As I see it, the movement of the 'mini pendulum' wrist action would have to be reversed & cause the tip to move in the opposite direction to have ANY countering effect. A reversed wrist action would in effect be shortening the length from the elbow to the cue as the forearm/rod swings down.

Now... the wrist action that you & I do in effect would lengthen the distance from the elbow to the cue on the back stroke which when 'undone' as the arm/rod swing comes down would returned to neutral & restore the length & then that wrist action on the other side would lengthen it again. That in effect would be a changing of the length of the rod to a small degree. This in effect would lesson the total differences of change in the slope of the tangent lines along the swing of the pendulum but I think 'counteract' is too strong of word. In fact, since it seems that the tip is of no concern to many past the point of contact, a slight forward cock of the wrist at the set position would further enhance the effect of 'our' wrist action from the top of the back swing up until contact with the ball.

Does that not make sense?

You did not answer me, but I think it is a given that you are not & did use a 'cradle' grip with the cue sitting loose on the curl of the fingers, because that type wrist action then results in the cue being lifted higher in the back swing which would in effect negate or reduce the benefit of the lengthened connection from the cue to the elbow as their is not a pivoting of the butt within the hand connection to the cue. Now opening the last 3 fingers on the back swing would lesson that lifting effect to some degree.

In any case, if anything but a loose connection is used on the butt there is 'extreme' downward pressure placed on the bridge hand if the elbow is not allowed to drop on the back swing. I think that is why those that use a firm grip wind up rolling their wrist going back & forward as doing that reduces the straight down pressure on the bridge as that turns the lift part of the hand to the side of the cue which results in less lifting & less downward pressure & 'wanted' movement on the shaft end.

Well I've said a mouth full, but what do you think about what I have said.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Bumped for Rick

Okay... so what is that?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Neil,

Thank you for your detailed response. I'm glad you included a physical description to the question of what is "the angle of attack", for those who weren't familiar with it. Let's to take it a step further and apply it to each person's individual stroke and why they are all NOT created equal.

An advanced player's stroke "in relation to the table surface", describes their physical positioning during their stroke, but not descriptive of what they do to get into that position. I would like to see an examination of what we do to develop a high level stroke and define it. I think there isn't an actual definition of the parts making up the pool stroke because we don't know enough about its components. "Do this", is a limited teaching tool.

What separates the pro from the 20 year banger? Raising or lowering my cue butt, moving my hand backward or forward on my grip, shortening my bridge, etc., are all ways to change a stroke. I think the bickering in this thread can be summed up to a common denominator...timing.

The desired result in each stroke when applying the correct angle of attack, contact point, and speed, is dependent on the timing of hitting the cue ball. IOW, you will not achieve the correct angle of attack, speed, or contact point without the correct timing in your stroke.

This should be the basis of the discussion. Not the length of the flattening out of the stroke and its distance. At what point of the stroke is the cue ball being contacted? For most, it will change on 50% of their shots. The consistent pro will hit the cue ball 90% of the time not too early or late. They don't get the funny english or no english. Their timing is repeatable.

And yes, this thread has turned into a brawl. Neither side is backing down, so fagedaboudit! Every opinion is a piece of the puzzle. Nobody knows it all. If they do...please send me your PayPal info. I've got a few questions backing up on this end.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

As I'm sure you know by now, I have 'him' & 'them' on ignore.

But timing is what part of my original question was about even though I did not say it specifically because I did not know what an answer might entail. However during the 'dicussions' I have said whatever it is certainly would have to be 'timed' as some say that the elbow drop has to be coordinated & timed.

While I agree that the timing of when the elbow drop happens effects the outcome I do not agree that one must 'time' it with any conscious thought.

Apparently, the 'pendulum' stroke has some aspect that must be timed to get 2 inches of straight/level tip travel, but it must not be conscious because apparently no one can explain what it is or when it happens.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

 

[BeiberLvr]

Okay... so what is that?

I'm assuming you couldn't see the quoted post?

In any case, it's a video that Neil recorded that backs up the statement RandyG made, that you're still hanging on too.

Here's the link again if you weren't able to see it in my other post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNIW3zwmeYo


I guess now you can move on to something else.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Angle of attack has always meant, to me, how your cue tip goes through the CB. If you think of a pin cushion and imagine pins all inserted at the same spot you'll see that they can vary in their angle of attack, from just a bit to a lot.

The late Harry Sims one day spent some time with me on a billiard table and explained his theory on AoA for a while and demonstrated how a descending stroke differs from an ascending stroke, along with a few other variations.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

Do you happen to know if he was using a fixed elbow stroke or was he allowing his elbow to drop. Just curious.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

Do you happen to know if he was using a fixed elbow stroke or was he allowing his elbow to drop. Just curious.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

hmmm, not sure I recall. But I do remember that Harry had a *very* upright stance, so I would say that in all likelihood it was an elbow drop scenario.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

Does anyone know if Rick intentionally misspells Bob's last name as a snipe or is it just a constant mistake? It irks me because Bob is highly respected and has been a friend for a long time.

No, I do not do it intentionally & did not even realize that I was doing so. I'll check for the correct spelling & apply it from here on out. Or...at least will attempt to do say, as I am I bit of what I call a 'dyslexic' two finger 'typist'. I misspell from as form nearly every time & must correct it when I catch myself doing it.

Thank you for pointing it out to me.

I will also PM him an apology.

From your statement I would surmise that you would also respect his findings of tip travel for a fixed elbow stroke & the chart that has made to compare it to the tip travel of an elbow drop stroke.

 

[gregcantrall]

Snip........

Apparently, the 'pendulum' stroke has some aspect that must be timed to get 2 inches of straight/level tip travel, but it must not be conscious because apparently no one can explain what it is or when it happens.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

I thought I gave an explanation .

My explanation was that the cue tip variation from straight was 1/32 of an inch in 5 inches of travel at the sweet spot with a perfect pendulum stroke. I stand by that assertion.

They call me Nobody not no one.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Some players call it "digging in", to the cue ball. CJ has mentioned it a few times when he's talked about staying closer to center with cueing.

I think it's all dependent on the timing in the stroke. I've proved this to myself by an example. I get down on the shot and before I take my backstroke to shoot, I move my whole body forward or backward an inch or so. My timing is thrown off quite a bit. I can't seem to get the correct amount of spin/speed.

Best,
Mike

Mike,

That has also been part of what I have been saying about the pendulum stroke in that it requires a 'perfect' set up to work correctly as 'designed' which is not that easy on many shots, especially on larger tables. That is also why the 2 inches of straight/level tip travel would be important to understand as to the how, why, & when of it.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

 

[MSchaffer]

So I have no research here, but I think of it this way, Rick...

One way to achieve a straight line of travel on a pendulum machine is to dynamically vary the length of the pendulum. In other words, lengthen the pendulum on the back stroke, then shorten the pendulum as it accelerates toward the cue ball.

As I stroke the cue, I sub-consciously grip tighter as the tip approached the cue ball in anticipation of the hit. As the grip tightens, the 'pendulum' shortens (albeit only for a short period of time...say 'several inches').

I know that the shortening is not a large amount, but ANY shortening would result in a move toward a level stroke, and a well timed shortening will result in a perfectly level stroke for several inches.

No research involved here, so I can't provide any measured results, but that is what I have going in my head.

 

[Neil]

Some players call it "digging in", to the cue ball. CJ has mentioned it a few times when he's talked about staying closer to center with cueing.

I think it's all dependent on the timing in the stroke. I've proved this to myself by an example. I get down on the shot and before I take my backstroke to shoot, I move my whole body forward or backward an inch or so. My timing is thrown off quite a bit. I can't seem to get the correct amount of spin/speed.

Best,
Mike

First off, "timing" has several different meanings when referring to the pool stroke, depending on just what one is actually talking about.

1. Timing can mean the act of trying to have the cue accelerate through the cb. In reality, this can not really happen, as the cue significantly reduces forward speed at the moment of contact with the cb. Also, it has been shown that one can not even accelerate all the way to the cb. The last few inches before contact there is zero acceleration and the cue is traveling at a constant speed. Most amateurs actually decelerate on the way to the cb without realizing it.What you don't want to have happen is to be decelerating the cue before contact.

2. Timing can also mean not having a forward straight stroke and getting your cue to come on line at just the right moment to hit the cb where you intend to. To exaggerate, the cue is coming forward on an "S" line, and you bring it back just in time to hit the cb correctly. Few have an actually straight stroke. Most wobble side to side on the way to the cb.

If you take the best stroker alive and the worst banger alive, have them hit the cb at the same spot, at the same speed, at the same angle, you will get identical results. What separates the better players stroke from the lesser players stroke is accuracy and repeatability.

The amateur thinks he is accelerating on the way to the cb, but often is actually not doing so. Often you will here an amateur say "where did that spin or draw come from?" Stroking correctly can often cause this to happen.

The other part is accuracy. Very few amateurs actually hit the cb where they think they are hitting it. This is easily proved by the chalk mark on the cb or training ball. The main reason they can't hit with precision and repeatability is due to how they actually stroke the cue, or bring the cue forward. They think they are going straight forward with it, but under analysis, they aren't. The biggest cause of this,- are you ready for this one?- is using a piston type stroke. There are enough moving parts in a piston stroke to make it very difficult without an extreme amount of practice to have the cue go straight reliably. That combined with a non-chalant stance is a recipe for failure with precision.

So, what the better players have that the others don't is simply precision and repeatability. Doesn't matter if they have a piston stroke or a pendulum stroke. Although, it is much easier with a pendulum stroke. If you watch most pros, most of the time there elbow does not move until they make contact with the cb. What happens after that is immaterial to the shot. The after results are only useful for helping to backpedal to see what went wrong or right before the shot was actually taken.

For the angle of attack, you will see that almost every person that even plays decent tries to keep the cue as level as possible. A few may have a slightly elevated cue in the back, but as long as they consistently do it, it doesn't really matter. All it does is make the cb swerve quicker, and if they are consistent with it, they also learn when it curves for them, just like the guy trying to keep it level learns when it curves for him. Seldom can one shoot with an actually level cue, so we all get some swerve when using english. (of course swerve is also dependent on speed of shot and distance until contact with ob)

 

[Ghosst]

No, I do not do it intentionally & did not even realize that I was doing so. I'll check for the correct spelling & apply it from here on out. Or...at least will attempt to do say, as I am I bit of what I call a 'dyslexic' two finger 'typist'. I misspell from as form nearly every time & must correct it when I catch myself doing it.

Thank you for pointing it out to me.

I will also PM him an apology.

From your statement I would surmise that you would also respect his findings of tip travel for a fixed elbow stroke & the chart that has made to compare it to the tip travel of an elbow drop stroke.

Thanks for correcting it. I have not read Bob's paper so I cannot comment on that. What I do know is how well he plays, how gifted he is, and what a nice person he is. Having known him for many moons (let's no age ourselves here), I can honestly say that anything he teaches I would listen to. The same can be said for several others.

My personal disagreements with people have no bearing on them being great teachers. There is someone in this thread I vehemently disagree with on a certain topic. But when it comes to pool, I sit down, shut up, and listen because he knows more about using a pool cue than I ever will. In fact, he doesn't even know I disagree with him on that mysterious topic because I find more value in his teaching than any silly dispute.

I don't know if that will ring true to you or not. I hope it does.