what did you apply on this shot?

[Bob Jewett]

what happened here is that pocket the 7 at the lower right corner pocket. CB goes down to it's normal path after the initial impact, hits the rail but was killed almost instantly after the rebound. the CB did a semi-arch or bounced off the opposite angle. by the way, the CB was struck at above moderate speed. how did this happen? ...

There is a similar shot in Mosconi's book Winning Pocket Billiards and in lots of other books like Byrne. Any carom player knows this shot and lots of variations. In the recent ESPN show, "3-Cushion Grand Masters" Eric Yow played a shot like this.

I think you may have the diagram somewhat wrong, though. Try it again and see if you can have the object ball nearly a diamond from the pocket and still kill the cue ball. It's possible with slippery cloth or a little jump, but usually it is hard to get that action from that exact position.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As Bob Jewett said, I think the OB has to be closer to the end rail for this to happen, like this:

CueTable Help

And I agree with others who say it's not much use as a shot in pool. In fact, I usually see it happen as a mistake where the shooter shoots too hard trying to bring the CB back to the other end of the table. So I think the interesting question here is how do you prevent this from happening?

What's the best way to shoot a nearly straight on shot like this (assuming hitting thinner isn't an option), from the other end of the table, and give it enough follow to rebound off the end rail and return to the other end of the table, but without giving it too much overspin and killing it as shown?

I know what I do, but is it the best way? What's your technique?

pj
chgo

 

[coryjeb]

As Bob Jewett said, I think the OB has to be closer to the end rail for this to happen, like this:

CueTable Help

And I agree with others who say it's not much use as a shot in pool. In fact, I usually see it happen as a mistake where the shooter shoots too hard trying to bring the CB back to the other end of the table. So I think the interesting question here is how do you prevent this from happening?

What's the best way to shoot a nearly straight on shot like this (assuming hitting thinner isn't an option), from the other end of the table, and give it enough follow to rebound off the end rail and return to the other end of the table, but without giving it too much overspin and killing it as shown?

I know what I do, but is it the best way? What's your technique?

pj
chgo

Good point PJ- I too would be interesed in other responses to this. I seem to get inconsistant results on these shots, sometimes too much coming back and sometimes too much "grab". Seems center ball or using low just enough that it starts to turn back over before it hits the OB works as well as anything, but I am definately listening for something better...

 

[Bob Jewett]

... And I agree with others who say it's not much use as a shot in pool. ...

There are a few situations where you want to hold the cue ball on the cushion but cannot hit the cue ball low or the object ball full. The situation I see most often is when my opponent has a ball by his pocket on the short rail and the cue ball is way up table. I hit the object ball at a little angle to avoid the kiss-back, and use the follow to make the cue ball go back to the foot rail.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

There is a similar shot in Mosconi's book Winning Pocket Billiards and in lots of other books like Byrne. Any carom player knows this shot and lots of variations. In the recent ESPN show, "3-Cushion Grand Masters" Eric Yow played a shot like this.

I think you may have the diagram somewhat wrong, though. Try it again and see if you can have the object ball nearly a diamond from the pocket and still kill the cue ball. It's possible with slippery cloth or a little jump, but usually it is hard to get that action from that exact position.

you're right BOB, the cloth was slippery as hell.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

As Bob Jewett said, I think the OB has to be closer to the end rail for this to happen, like this:

CueTable Help

And I agree with others who say it's not much use as a shot in pool. In fact, I usually see it happen as a mistake where the shooter shoots too hard trying to bring the CB back to the other end of the table. So I think the interesting question here is how do you prevent this from happening?

What's the best way to shoot a nearly straight on shot like this (assuming hitting thinner isn't an option), from the other end of the table, and give it enough follow to rebound off the end rail and return to the other end of the table, but without giving it too much overspin and killing it as shown?

I know what I do, but is it the best way? What's your technique?

pj
chgo

mostly accidental but few were necessary. I just made the diagram simplier since I cannot remember exactly the position of the other balls were. and I'm not that good at illustrations. what I remember is that the distance between the CB and intended OB and how slippery the table cloth was.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Shooting a "force follow" shot is a bit difficult to learn. And it seems to me I need to have the tip of my cue in excellent condition, recently scuffed with a sandpaper shaper and very well chalked, especially around the sides of the tip.

The following shot is a good test to see if you are executing a force follow shot or not. If force follow, after contacting the 1 ball slightly to the left side and then the rail, the cue ball will curve around to hit the 2 ball. The cue ball does this because it has a forward roll and continues to have a forward roll after contacting the far rail. If you are not shooting with force follow, then the cue ball will come off the rail in a straight line and shoot toward the side pocket.

To shoot this shot, have your tip in excellent condition and very well chalked (no dark spots when held under light). Shoot mostly top with a little left. Shoot fast and TONS of follow through! So much follow through, it is as if you are going to send the tip of your cue through the far wall! So much follow through, you leave the tip of your cue at the center pocket after your shot!

Placement of the cue ball and where exactly you hit the 1 ball can make a big difference. If you get the cue ball to stay down at the far rail, but it is not curving towards the 2 ball, try moving the cue ball a little to get less of a full on hit or try hitting the 1 ball with less of a full on hit.

If the cue ball curves a little, but not enough, then need more follow through!

Here is the shot...

CueTable Help

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Shooting a "force follow" shot is a bit difficult to learn.

I think the term "force follow" is misleading because it implies some kind of special follow shot - it's just a follow shot hit hard (although not necessarily as hard as possible). It usually also means maximum follow (hit as high on the CB as possible), like this shot, but it can also have less than maximum, like when you want the CB to curve wider.

For instance, for this shot I'd say "hit the CB as high as possible and as hard as you accurately can". Saying "use force follow" just isn't specific enough.

And it seems to me I need to have the tip of my cue in excellent condition, recently scuffed with a sandpaper shaper and very well chalked, especially around the sides of the tip.

This, of course, is true, although it's not necessary to scuff with a sandpaper shaper - any kind of tip "texturer" will do (like a tip tapper or Tip Pik). A recently shaped tip might help.

The following shot is a good test to see if you are executing a force follow shot or not. If force follow, after contacting the 1 ball slightly to the left side and then the rail, the cue ball will curve around to hit the 2 ball. The cue ball does this because it has a forward roll and continues to have a forward roll after contacting the far rail. If you are not shooting with force follow, then the cue ball will come off the rail in a straight line and shoot toward the side pocket.

Two comments about this:

1. Again, "force follow" is not precisely defined, and there's more than one kind of forceful follow shot, so this isn't really a test of all of them.

2. I don't think this is a reliable test because your success at this shot depends a lot on how slippery your cloth and balls are. If the cloth is brand new it can make you think you're hitting the CB very well when you're only hitting it OK. If the cloth is dirty and sticky it can make you think you're hitting the CB poorly when you're hitting it very well.

...Shoot fast and TONS of follow through! So much follow through, it is as if you are going to send the tip of your cue through the far wall! So much follow through, you leave the tip of your cue at the center pocket after your shot!

All this exaggerated followthrough isn't really necessary, and might throw your stroke off more than help it. I think you should just concentrate on hitting the CB hard and accurately.

pj
chgo

 

[asbani]

top right... makes the CB forced follow at a powerful and speed.. Keep it bouncing out and goes in again.. this needs really powerful stroke.. and from the distant between the 7 and the CB is really hard.. almost impossible but the only way to do it is Top right indeed.

 

[LILJOHN30]

Actually, it's important to know this shot. Ironic you should bring this one up. I did this by accident against the same friend I played the previous shot I posted in this thread. I honestly believe every person who knows this shot learns it by accident.

The old hook shot

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

I use to do that shot the same as you, untill I started playing with an "X" Shaft, now I do it like this..

CueTable Help

Shooting a "force follow" shot is a bit difficult to learn. And it seems to me I need to have the tip of my cue in excellent condition, recently scuffed with a sandpaper shaper and very well chalked, especially around the sides of the tip.

The following shot is a good test to see if you are executing a force follow shot or not. If force follow, after contacting the 1 ball slightly to the left side and then the rail, the cue ball will curve around to hit the 2 ball. The cue ball does this because it has a forward roll and continues to have a forward roll after contacting the far rail. If you are not shooting with force follow, then the cue ball will come off the rail in a straight line and shoot toward the side pocket.

To shoot this shot, have your tip in excellent condition and very well chalked (no dark spots when held under light). Shoot mostly top with a little left. Shoot fast and TONS of follow through! So much follow through, it is as if you are going to send the tip of your cue through the far wall! So much follow through, you leave the tip of your cue at the center pocket after your shot!

Placement of the cue ball and where exactly you hit the 1 ball can make a big difference. If you get the cue ball to stay down at the far rail, but it is not curving towards the 2 ball, try moving the cue ball a little to get less of a full on hit or try hitting the 1 ball with less of a full on hit.

If the cue ball curves a little, but not enough, then need more follow through!

Here is the shot...

CueTable Help

 

[Stones]

Posters are saying they can't think of a useful situation to play this type of shot.

When you're out on the road, you find games where you can and sometimes the playing conditions are not what you would call pristine.

I have used this shot effectively playing on equipment that rolled off a lot with my CB frozen to the head rail and my next ball was on the end rail about a diamond and a half away from the object ball I was shooting at.

Because the table leaned so much, there was no way I could accurately slow roll the CB to make the shot and hold the CB for the next ball on the end rail. So, I hit it with force follow to hold the line and held the CB to the rail.

I probably used this shot a total of about 3 times over the years. The problem is it only comes up every 176,947 shots. LOL

It is nice to know what to do if it ever comes up though.

Stones

 

[Billy_Bob]

I think the term "force follow" is misleading because it implies some kind of special follow shot - it's just a follow shot hit hard (although not necessarily as hard as possible). It usually also means maximum follow (hit as high on the CB as possible), like this shot, but it can also have less than maximum, like when you want the CB to curve wider...

Yes I have trouble defining what exactly is going on with a force follow shot. This is because it happens so fast, I can't see what is going on with the cue ball.

I have heard that the cue ball in these cases actually has more of a forward roll than the ball is traveling? I don't know if this is true or not?

I'll ask the wizards on BD about this. Maybe Dr. Dave can do a high speed video of this and see what actually is happening...

So far as my excessive following through advice above to make this shot, correct you don't need that much follow through to make the shot. But this is what I tell other players to get them to where they can make the shot. At first they "poke", then I tell them to follow through so the tip goes through the far wall, then they might follow through 6 inches or a foot and this gets the job done!

 

[hang-the-9]

My local favorite pool hall just re-opened with all the tables recieveing fresh Simonis 860. I've seen several similar shots in league over the last couple of weeks, and while the shot is strange enough with all that slippage, the looks on the players face is priceless (the classis "WTF?" look). I've been very happy to see them however This action should diminish over the next couple of weeks as the cloth gets broken in ... ah well.

Dave

That look is actuall pretty common. People that use top to try to bounce off the rail after making a ball close to the pocket is one of the things I see all the time, even with pretty decent players. The follow remains after the cueball hits the rail and sends it to the rail a second time instead of up table like they thought. The correct way to handle this is wait untill the match is over, and show them that for a ball close to the rail like that, follow will not work very well, you need to spin it off the rails and around to get to the other side, unless you hit softly so the second follow effect does not take place. But that will not get you uptable again, berely to the middle pockets on fast cloth. This is all depending on how far away the OB is to the pocket and the angle.