What do you aim at?

[CaptainJR]

It could be my eyes, or it could be the drawing is two demensional, or it could be that the "ghost ball" looks a little scrunched, but it seems to me like where you have the "ghost ball" would be a little thin if a hit to pocket the ball....

I see that as a slightly thicker hit.... center CB to edge of OB shot...(HH) system...

I think the common denominator is HH system(s) / Joe Tucker number system / Ghost ball system / Ghost Ball Horizon Line sytem....They will all ultimatley end up with the contact from CB to OB in the exact same spots on each ball.

The systems are just "Viewed Different"

Example...The (HH) system of center CB to edge of OB...That is your aim point visually, but the "actual contact" between the two balls ends up being equal to Joe Tuckers number system.

The difference is...which one are you more comfortable with when you line up...

I personally see the (HH) system much easier....but I know that there is a conversion process happening to where the balls are actually contacting each other based on the Joe Tucker Numbers system......thus for me I can be totally confident that may aim is on....

If I miss....it is because my execution was lacking somewhere...not my aim...

Read my post again. This wasn't something I'm recommending. It was something stupid that I tried for a while 30 or so years ago. The only thing that comes to mind that could be more stupid is thinking you can aim center ball at the edge of the object ball and think your going to make the shot.

 

[drivermaker]

The only thing that comes to mind that could be more stupid is thinking you can aim center ball at the edge of the object ball and think your going to make the shot.

No Capt...once again you show YOUR stupidity because you don't fully understand the remaining parts of how the system works. Fred just explained things in detail, and dumb motherf*#ker that you are, you still don't get it! READ for Chrissake!!

 

[Colin Colenso]

Well Fred, after you explained it to me I tried it and I'm convinced it works. When you first posted it here I didn't understand what you were talking about, but now I understand the concept. Like everything it takes practice but it is lights out if you figure the angle and offset correctly.

I do have one (more) question, when you pivot do you adjust your bridge hand and stance at all or just move the stick? Also, did you learn this from somebody or come up with it on your own?

Thanks,

Al

It still doesn't make sense to me.

Can you draw some diagrams Fred?

Seems if you're aiming at the contact point, then you're gonna hit thick on some shots. How does it work when you have a 80 degree cut from 3 inches away?

What are you aligning to the contact point? The cue, the centre of the cue ball or are you making some estimation of the contact point on the cue ball.

Fact is, you don't want the centre of the cue ball travelling straight at the contact point on the object ball. This will miss on thinner shots markedly.

If you're using a way to deviate the cue ball to the side of this path, it needs to be adaptable to different distances. Because a deviation of 2 degrees move the ball 1/4 inch from the contact point over 2 feet, but 3/4 inch over 6 feet of travel.

You cannot deviate from a line in a parallel sense, only in an angular sense.
You cannot align without having 2 points aligned.

I've read all you wrote here and the links you provided and I cannot decifer what you are doing in regard to the above.

Anyway, as I said, diagrams and/or a better explanation would help.

 

[Colin Colenso]

No Capt...once again you show YOUR stupidity because you don't fully understand the remaining parts of how the system works. Fred just explained things in detail, and dumb motherf*#ker that you are, you still don't get it! READ for Chrissake!!

Well that makes me stupid too, cause I went through all his stuff real close and still don't get it. Must be a secret code.

 

[drivermaker]

Well that makes me stupid too, cause I went through all his stuff real close and still don't get it. Must be a secret code.

Send an email to me and explain exactly what you're having a problem with or don't understand.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Send an email to me and explain exactly what you're having a problem with or don't understand.

Basically what I wrote above.

I'll try on the weekend to describe more clearly but it's late here and I've gotta hit the sack now.

I will get to the bottom of this puzzle and when I do I will make all the diagrams so it can be analyzed more clearly.

Cheers...no fighting while I'm gone kids

 

[CaptainJR]

No Capt...once again you show YOUR stupidity because you don't fully understand the remaining parts of how the system works. Fred just explained things in detail, and dumb motherf*#ker that you are, you still don't get it! READ for Chrissake!!

I read it. Maybe the explanation isn't quite right. What I read will not work. As Colin says on 80 degree cut you are going to undercut every time. No ifs ands or butts about it.

It has been diagramed on here why it will under cuts every time. If that is not true then explain why it isn't. Is it that damn complicated to explain that you can't even explain it on here? If it doesn't work on every cut shot then it doesn't work. "Remaining parts?" If it is a system than the same thing must work on every cut shot.


Opps, I might have just realized something. What I just said doesn't cut the mustard. I think you could have a system where you use different things to make different angled cuts. I just don't need it. I use the same thing to make all my cut shots.


Now! About the name calling! @#^%@#^%&$%*$%^%^#$%^@$&$%@#%!@%#$^&%*^&(%(*&#$@%% Use your imagination. LOL

 

[Colin Colenso]

Now! About the name calling! @#^%@#^%&$%*$%^%^#$%^@$&$%@#%!@%#$^&%*^&(%(*&#$@%% Use your imagination. LOL

I think you just stumbled onto the magic code JR

Hey, I couldn't sleep. Keep seeing balls! Had to tell the dog to get off my face

Anyway, maybe someone can post a better explanation while I re-read / decifer what Fred wrote in those posts.

btw: Has HAL HOULE ever written a decent explanation?

 

[Fred Agnir]

It still doesn't make sense to me.

Can you draw some diagrams Fred?

Probably not. It's pretty easy to show on a table.

Seems if you're aiming at the contact point, then you're gonna hit thick on some shots.

That's why there's a pivot. The pivot gets it to the right aimline.

How does it work when you have a 80 degree cut from 3 inches away?

Better than any other system I've ever seen in print.

What are you aligning to the contact point? The cue, the centre of the cue ball or are you making some estimation of the contact point on the cue ball.

I align the cue tip to the contact point of the object ball. I do no estimation on the cueball. I point through the cueball from the front side, the only side I can actually see.

Fact is, you don't want the centre of the cue ball travelling straight at the contact point on the object ball. This will miss on thinner shots markedly.

This is a definite fact. No disagreement. You must pivot. It ain't called "Contact and Pivot" for nuthin'

You cannot deviate from a line in a parallel sense, only in an angular sense.
You cannot align without having 2 points aligned.

EXACTLY. Angular deviation:that's the pivot. PIVOT PIVOT PIVOT!!!! Backhand english is the pivot.



Fred

 

[drivermaker]

btw: Has HAL HOULE ever written a decent explanation?

Hal doesn't write or try to explain it in that form. It's by him talking...somebody listening and doing. (If he wishes to give the info to you..and what precludes that is being a know-it-all, argumentative, a dweeb, a nerb, a goofball, or an asshole...past or present)

 

[Fred Agnir]

I do have one (more) question, when you pivot do you adjust your bridge hand and stance at all or just move the stick?

Probably the one thing that could be a detriment to a lot of players. You have to move the stick only, but it affects your stance. But the movement of the stick ends up being pretty minimal. It seems you could adjust your stance as well. You'll have to play around with it until it feels comfortable.

Also, did you learn this from somebody or come up with it on your own?

I sort of discovered it after using one of Hal's systems. When I wrote to him about it, he said he does know about the system but doesn't really teach it. It's sort of old hat. I backward engineered it, so I have more aimpoints than his systems. His systems, he's trying to reduce aimpoints.

Fred

 

[drivermaker]

Now! About the name calling! @#^%@#^%&$%*$%^%^#$%^@$&$%@#%!@%#$^&%*^&(%(*&#$@%% Use your imagination. LOL

Damn...you can cuss like a sailor! BTW...the #$@%% at the end was unwarranted and hurtful, even if I did call you a name. Take it back....

 

[Fred Agnir]

It still doesn't make sense to me.

Can you draw some diagrams Fred?

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The original aim (orange line) on this particular shot through the center of the left half of the cueball (shown on the cueball aim at the bottom left) to the theoretical contact point. The bridge hand is at "A." Pivot the cue to center (the yellow line). That's the new line.

Fred

 

[Mungtor]

I align the cue tip to the contact point of the object ball. I do no estimation on the cueball. I point through the cueball from the front side, the only side I can actually see.

Well, from the description, you do estimate on the cue ball. You estimate how far outside the center of the CB to line up the cue stick based on the angle of the cut. Unless I misunderstood something.

And, as you commented on previously, I wouldn't be surprised if your estimation worked out to aiming the contact point on the CB to the contact point on the OB. Exactly like aiming with the edge of the CB for a very thin cut rather than trying to estimate by ghost ball.

This is a definite fact. No disagreement. You must pivot. It ain't called "Contact and Pivot" for nuthin'
Fred

What I'm wondering is why the pivot works and a a "parallel shift" of the cue stick wouldn't. I'm not doubting that it works, but it seems to me that once you find the line of where the CB must contact the OB the pivot actually makes the CB diverge from that line in a way that would actually hit most shots thin. Maybe it works because it inherently compensates for throw or something. I'll have to get to a table and try it out this weekend. I do play with a Predator shaft tho, so it may not work for me at all times/distances.

 

[Colin Colenso]

To test/proove this, I line up with the stick pointing to the contact point of the object ball. To test this, place the object ball on the table such that the number is the theoretical contact point. That way, you have something definite to aim at.

Ok, so you're aligned with the center of the cue stick and the contact point on the object ball.

Set up a 45 degree cut or so. Your aim should be pointing through the halfway point of the cueball (1/4 ball) directly at the center of the number (contact point). Pivot about your bridge to center cueball. That's the new line. Trust it. Stare at the cueball. Deliver the stroke straight ahead.

So a 45 degree cut (or so???) means line cue through halfway point of the cue ball. (I guess to the same side/ direction as the the object ball will be cut to).

Set up a 10 degree or so cut. Your aim should be pointing through a point just a little off center of the cueball (about 1/8th offset) and at the contact point. Pivot to center. You can't miss that shot.
One place I find it super helpful is when the CB and OB are close, but the pocket is far away. The eyes play tricks on you, so it's helpful to have a system that you can just deal with points on the cueball and object ball rather than get mixed up on optics.

If you want to use english, and you have a standard squirt shaft, simply pivot about your bridge to whatever desired english. If you know your pivot point, pivot about that pivot point.

Fred

I cannot see how this will possibly work on a very close cut shot and I suspect that it will deviate the cue ball further off path on a full table cut shot.

I also expect the results will vary with a short and long bridge considerably.

I can see that this method may form an approximate method to compensate for moving the line of shot from the contact point to the ghost ball center and most shots could be played successfully this way with a little practice, but it cannot work on all length shots I believe and when you need to vary your bridge length. Probably 80% of game shots it is accurate enough for.

I think for beginners its a quick fix, and for advanced players they could adapt fairly well to it.

But keep in mind that snooker players, who are the best aimers in the cue sports business do not use this system. That doesn't prove it is wrong, but it makes be skeptical about the real accuracy of this system.

Seems I understand it now, but would like a clearer definition such as 10 degree = 1/8 cue ball = 4mm, 20 degree = 6mm, 30 degree = 8mm etc.
Bridge length = ? 8-10" ?

 

[Fred Agnir]

Well, from the description, you do estimate on the cue ball. You estimate how far outside the center of the CB to line up the cue stick based on the angle of the cut. Unless I misunderstood something.

As of this writing, I've broken the CB offset to three finite offsets: 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of that half of the cueball. I completely estimate and don't pay much attention to exactly where I'm at. Maybe I do it subconsciously, but when I've show this to people, I tell them 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4. They shoot.

What I'm wondering is why the pivot works and a a "parallel shift" of the cue stick wouldn't. I'm not doubting that it works, but it seems to me that once you find the line of where the CB must contact the OB the pivot actually makes the CB diverge from that line in a way that would actually hit most shots thin. Maybe it works because it inherently compensates for throw or something.

Could be. I really don't know.

I'll have to get to a table and try it out this weekend. I do play with a Predator shaft tho, so it may not work for me at all times/distances.

Center ball shots should work. Also, once you have the centerball aim, you can pivot about your grip hand (front hand english) with the Predator. It's tough, but that's the only way I know of how to use a Predator with this system if I were to use English. I'd suggest to swap shafts for a few hours. You may never go back.

Fred

 

[BRKNRUN]

Read my post again. This wasn't something I'm recommending. It was something stupid that I tried for a while 30 or so years ago. The only thing that comes to mind that could be more stupid is thinking you can aim center ball at the edge of the object ball and think your going to make the shot.

I read your post, and responded on that particular shot. I don't think I ever mentioned the word "stupid" anywhere...

The center CB to edge OB was for that particular shot....not all of them...I am sorry you do not understand the system. I recommend that if you want to understand.......... you call Hal like I did.

I am not saying that I blindly shoot using Hal's system...I "confirm" the aim by using other systems....guess what....the actual contact points between CB and OB are all the same for every system......

What I don't think you undersand is that by aiming the center of the CB to the edge of the OB on "that particular shot" does not mean that the center of the CB hits the contact point....what happens is the front part of the CB that is closest to the pocket aka the actual "contact point" contacts the actual "contact point" on the OB....ala the Joe Tucker Numbers system....

Hell, just look at your diagram....if you were to unscrunch the CB a little you would see that the verticle center of the CB is on the edge of the OB...or half ball hit or whatever the hell you want to call it....

I don't knock anyones systems...and I was not knocking yours...This is exactly the point I was trying to make when I replied to your post....People see things in different ways.... You obviously see things different than I do...

The only thing truely "stupid" is to discount a sytem you obviously know nothing about....Even stupid concepts can have "gold mines" of knowledge about this game....

 

[Fred Agnir]

Ok, so you're aligned with the center of the cue stick and the contact point on the object ball.

Sounds right.

So a 45 degree cut (or so???) means line cue through halfway point of the cue ball. (I guess to the same side/ direction as the the object ball will be cut to).

Yes. I'm trying to accentuate that the balls don't have to be in some exact area. Just throw them on the table. A cut to the left means use the left half of the cueball to start. You'd pivot clockwise to the center (as viewed from the top).

I cannot see how this will possibly work on a very close cut shot and I suspect that it will deviate the cue ball further off path on a full table cut shot.

Either you try it or you don't. If you speculate before you shoot it, you've closed your mind. Try it especially on those close cut shots. But I want you to report you findings. I seem to always ask this, and I get the guys reporting that it works, but I never seem to get the guys reporting that it didn't work. I'm sure it won't work for some people, they just don't seem to be getting back to me.

I also expect the results will vary with a short and long bridge considerably.

Correct. Use an 8-12" bridge. That's covers a lot of bridge length.

Seems I understand it now, but would like a clearer definition such as 10 degree = 1/8 cue ball = 4mm, 20 degree = 6mm, 30 degree = 8mm etc.
Bridge length = ? 8-10" ?

Don't bog yourself down with numbers and minutia. That's the whole point of the Houle Systems. I only use three points on the cueball, and one point (the contact point) on the object ball. That seems to cover three ranges of cut shots. And I use a bridge length of 8-12".

Fred

 

[Colin Colenso]

Well, from the description, you do estimate on the cue ball. You estimate how far outside the center of the CB to line up the cue stick based on the angle of the cut. Unless I misunderstood something.

And, as you commented on previously, I wouldn't be surprised if your estimation worked out to aiming the contact point on the CB to the contact point on the OB. Exactly like aiming with the edge of the CB for a very thin cut rather than trying to estimate by ghost ball.



What I'm wondering is why the pivot works and a a "parallel shift" of the cue stick wouldn't. I'm not doubting that it works, but it seems to me that once you find the line of where the CB must contact the OB the pivot actually makes the CB diverge from that line in a way that would actually hit most shots thin. Maybe it works because it inherently compensates for throw or something. I'll have to get to a table and try it out this weekend. I do play with a Predator shaft tho, so it may not work for me at all times/distances.

He cannot be lining up through the contact point of the cue ball, because then, after the pivot it would move the cue ball further to the side. Maybe it is about half-way toward the contact point.

eg. He mentioned a 45 degree cut as 1/4 ball from centre aim, but contact point is actually about 2/3 from the center to make a 45 degree angle. From billiards I know a half ball hit makes about a 30 degree angle, so 2/3 for 45 degrees is my guess. It can be calculated with a bit of trigonometry.

 

[BRKNRUN]

As of this writing, I've broken the CB offset to three finite offsets: 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of that half of the cueball. I completely estimate and don't pay much attention to exactly where I'm at. Maybe I do it subconsciously, but when I've show this to people, I tell them 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4. They shoot.

Could be. I really don't know.


Center ball shots should work. Also, once you have the centerball aim, you can pivot about your grip hand (front hand english) with the Predator. It's tough, but that's the only way I know of how to use a Predator with this system if I were to use English. I'd suggest to swap shafts for a few hours. You may never go back.

Fred

The observation I have is that people that have not learned the 3-line system which is Hal's base aiming system will have a hard time understanding the Shish-Kebob system...or your variation "aim and pivot"

I personally don't use the aim and pivot method for routine shots...but I do use it on cut shots and have found it is a very solid method..