Shawn Armstrong said:
ehh... now your losing me there guy....
What do YOU call it, and why?
- Thread starter JesPiddlin
- Start date
ehh... now your losing me there guy....
Oops, meant to say "cases", not cues.smokeandapancak said:
John Barton
New member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Really, you think you could Jack to build you anything you imagine? Try it. Personally I think you'd have better luck with Murnak - that is until you started to question his pricing.
Why should I disclose anything to you? You think that somehow you are going to trap me but you're not. I pay well more than the average and everyone who works with me is glad to be doing so. Yeah, I sew, I rivet, I cut, I sand, I design, and I interact with the customers. I don't tool because I don't have the patience or desire to learn to do it right. But I do know how to tool. What I do though - is to put all the people together with the skills needed to build world class cases and we build them together.
You're really something, I mean really, you invent an epidemic of damaged equipment to justify your postion and then when that is shot down you think your best bet is to try and discredit my methods.
Well, I call you out Shawn-O - go ahead and design some cases and get Jack or Jim or anyone you can to build them. Let's see how far you get and how much you spend. Or if you want, find yourself some manaufacturers in China or India and have them do them. When you are finished we can compare mine and yours to see which is truly good and has value.
I am betting you can't get a case like the Spring in Sheridan for less than $1000 UNLESS someone just wants to give you a sweetheart deal. Even if you come to China you will spend far more getting that case made and you still won't have the quality level I produce. Why not? Because you lack the knowledge and experience to get it done.
But have at it. I hope I have fired you up to prove me wrong and you are able to make this level of case for far less. Because if you do then it will be good for the consumers and push us all to find a cheaper way to build.
Looking forward to the Armstrong line of cases. Or just one.
Shawn Armstrong said:
You should go smoke some grass and keep your eye out for "the man"
... hippie.
Relax, it's not like any other company outsources to other countries. What kind of shoes do you wear? Just as an example: Any idea how much nike shoes cost to make? Any idea what the cost is of those shoes to retailers that sell them? You know the cool thing is that nike makes less on their shoes sold at full price than an American corporation like foot locker does by selling those shoes at retail price.
Have no problem with capitalism. I don't see the owner of Nike touting himself as a master shoemaker (the plant people do that for him), or saying he can jump higher than Michael Jordan (but John could kick and jump better than him). BTW, I wear Doc Martens. Made in England. But I also wear Adidas and Nike - made in Malaysia or Singapore, or whatever else. When's the last time you saw someone try to dress up a Nike as a custom shoe? Production vs. custom - the age old argument. "Absolutely Unique Custom Cue Cases - JB Cases". Made in a plant in China. If I heard that name, I'd think he was a Whitten, or a Justis, or Chaz, or some other person that builds the cases themselves. Instrokes weren't custom. Giuseppe aren't custom.third_i said:
John Barton
New member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Well enlighten us then - what DID you mean by using the country in your comment?
Shawn Armstrong said:
Ever heard of Nikeid? You buy directly from nike with an upcharge from retail for a "custom" shoe. Nike has told you that you'll be able to run harder, run longer, just read some advertisements. You say that you "have no problem with capitalism" but what do you think he's doing that is different from anyone else? I'll tell you as a fact, the chinese are VERY hard working people and when they aren't put on large assembly lines like for nike and other companies they will make a damn fine product. There's not much job security over there, they know that if aren't working that there is a line of thousands behind them waiting to take their job. If you compare what they will work for compared to an american and number in the hours it will take them to make a handcrafted product you'd really realize how big of a difference it is. For the same hours put into a case you can easily expect to pay 3 or 4 times more and the company will still have a smaller profit margin... Which means to stay in buisness they need to cut corners and the quality will drop in craftsmanship and materials, it's the way things work in the world today. I'm not a fan of it but it's something you have to live with.
Here are my new cases - available from BilliardWarehouse
John,
You can check out my full line of cases at www.billiardwarehouse.com. There are WIN cases that are nicely tooled for $350. I have Widowmakers for $360. There are some beautiful Instrokes for $250-$350. I think you will find that all my cases are beautiful, with some exquisite tooling and details. I also think I offer EXCELLENT value in these cases. The cases look nearly identical to yours (perhaps they were made the same way?), without the $900 for the extra tooling.
There you go. I've producted my lines. Take your shot at them. These cues are available for me to ship to anyone within 4-6 weeks.
John,
You can check out my full line of cases at www.billiardwarehouse.com. There are WIN cases that are nicely tooled for $350. I have Widowmakers for $360. There are some beautiful Instrokes for $250-$350. I think you will find that all my cases are beautiful, with some exquisite tooling and details. I also think I offer EXCELLENT value in these cases. The cases look nearly identical to yours (perhaps they were made the same way?), without the $900 for the extra tooling.
There you go. I've producted my lines. Take your shot at them. These cues are available for me to ship to anyone within 4-6 weeks.
I meant your case was made in China. Sorry to cause confusion. I'll use smaller words next time.John Barton said:
When did I say the Chinese don't make a fine product? I have yet to see this comment I made that Chinese = crap. I drive a Hyundai, and a VW, so imports and their quality aren't an issue to me. I have owned some import cues. I own a lot of stuff made in Asia. I never said their quality sucked. I told John to take his gimmick stick and shove it into his Chinese cue case. I didn't say "your POS Chinese case" or "your cheap Chinese case". Perhaps I should have said "beautiful, high quality Chinese cue case" to remove all doubt as to what I was saying. God, you people love reading your own meanings into what people say.third_i said:
I've added more cue cases to my line:Shawn Armstrong said:
http://www.jjcue.com/instrokecases_painted.htm
http://www.jjcue.com/wincases1.htm
All available for less than $400US. That's a savings of $850 on John's case. But, I don't have the same "insane" amount of "tool"ing as John's do.
I'm done with you, Barton. Or was it Collins?
John Barton
New member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Wow, that's really great, I guess any monkey with a computer can find out prices in five minutes. I made a case similar to the Win and Instroke cases with "that" level of tooling then the price would be close. Nice designs don'tcha think, wonder who thought of them. I wonder whose idea it was to build cases that way?
Who brought those into the world Shawn? Not you. And why don't you sell them at cost since you want to talk price so much? Let's see you should be able to get cases from any distributor for about half of it's retail value so what exactly are "you" adding for the extra money in terms of value? Yes, the Win cases and the Instroke cases are made the same way as this particular pattern because I chose to build on that base that I designed. So what? Are cues only the sum of their materials? What do you charge to put a tip on? About $1.50 right? .50cts for the tip and $1 for the five minutes it takes to do it? I didn't think so. When you call Jack to build your fantasy case are you going to tell him to charge you the price of materials and dictate his wages to him? How's that going by the way. I'd sure like to see your Justis that is 95% tooled with YOUR pattern used and not Jack's.
Seems like you are a little off base with your previous remark about being able to "make" a case. Why don't you do this - call J&J and show them my Sheridan case. Ask them to get you a quote on that case - or call Frank's Center, the Instroke distributor and ask him. See what they tell you. If you don't play any games and ask them straight up I'd like to see if you can get in that case for less than 7-800 wholesale from Instroke. Tell them that 95% of the surface area is tooled and tooled with a super high degree of quality. If you can then get it made and show us. Prove that YOU CAN DO what you say you can do. Let's just assume that you could get it for $600 - what would your markup be? I mean would you sell it at cost because you are so fair? Would you tack on a couple hundred for your "effort"? Or would you sell it for keystone (double wholesale)? What would you do Shawn, tell us all so that we can be enlightened on how business is supposed to be done.
You can't win Shawn. No matter what you try and "prove" it doesn't work. It does not matter if I am able to make a case like the Sheridan for $50 - the point is that the market ultimately set the price and IF someone buys that case and it satisfies them then it was "worth" every penny they paid and I am entitled to every bit of profit I made.
I earned it.
John Barton
New member
Shawn Armstrong said:
That's right they aren't the same case. So Mr. Math it's not a "savings" if you aren't buying the "same" thing. If you are talking about buying the case for it's performance aspects then yeah the customer is better off to buy the cheapest Instroke and get all the performance at the lowest price.
But if you are talking decoration then the price goes up with the work that goes on it. So again, let's see you get a Sheridan case done with the same anount of carving and tooling as the one I did and show us the invoice. I bet $1000 that if you get it made without any backstory that it will cost you $1000 or more as a consumer and at least 6-800 wholesale. Go ahead and do it, get it made and show us the invoice. How long do you need? I can put one out in two weeks? Surely you can do one in the same amount of time right? I will give you a month from now and bet 1000 that you can't do it.
Now Instroke has the capability, they have toolers on staff that can carve. So you should be able to get it done, you know, "pencil and telephone." Go to it. What can you lose? You prove me wrong, make $1000 and end up with a highly tooled FREE case. I will post my $1000 with Jay Helfert if you will do the same and we can let AZ Billiards be the judge.
John Barton
New member
whitey2 said:
The reason that the spring-loaded cue and laser cues aren't part of the game is that they don't fill a need when it comes to playing the game. The jump cue does in the same manner that tips and chalk are needed to be successful.
Laser cues and spring loaded cues are good for training purposes however and that is where they found a spot in the marketplace.
The rules do in fact cover the use of laser cues in competition. They are not allowed because they provide mechanical assisted aiming.
Actually the spring-loaded cue did not take the need to develop a stroke out of the equation. I played with one of these and it was far more difficult to use to play pool than a normal pool cue. So it didn't fill a void and didn't work as well as what already existed. Result - market failure.
Jump cues however filled a void created by Texas Express rules and have since evolved to be highly suited to the task. Result - market success.
am I really banned form JB land?
John Barton
New member
Shawn Armstrong said:
I am the one that named it and got it mass produced to sell in the USA. the cue style actually was invented by Hans Jorg Bertram in Germany and the cue that became the "Bunjee" jumper was developed by Franz Hauber and myself in Germany.
The impetus was that I kept coming to the USA and seeing these jump cues selling for $200 and more and I knew I could have them made and sell them for less.
We sold out the first batch in Vegas. We initially made 500 pieces and 100 went to Franz Hauber so that he could have an inexpensive version of his custom jump cues. This was payment for the development work. 50 went to Martin Gauger, a German Distributor, and 350 went to Vegas and sold out ike warm buttered biscuits. At the end of the month Joe Salazar was selling the ones he bought for $125 that's how hot they were. We sold them for $99 and $50 to dealers if they bought ten.
Why do you ask? I know you have something you think that you can trap me on.
John Barton
New member
smokeandapancak said:
No, I just get hot sometimes. You're cool, I know you were just clowning. Just an FYI - Shawn is a forum regular like me and we have been down this road in other places.
We have history.
John Barton said:No, I just get hot sometimes. You're cool, I know you were just clowning. Just an FYI - Shawn is a forum regular like me and we have been down this road in other places.
We have history.
Well damn it !!!
I had a whole "FREE SMOKE" campaign planned.. I even ordered t shirts and everything....
So, Instroke and WIN produce cases that aren't good, and have no value.
You asked me to find someone to build cases for me, and then you'd see if they were truly good, and a value. I showed you a few lines of cues produced that are as nice. Don't take pride in work that isn't yours. Your tooler does nice work. You didn't tool it, John. Ying Sung did.
Take your $1000 and invest in counselling. Charm school. Play McWhorter for it. Have a kick-off with Reyes, or a jump off with Ned Morris. You go do what you need to to get off on yourself. Your case is nothing more than an Instroke (your design, right?) with some extra tooling by one of your workers. You open up on your description of your new case by bashing Justis and Whitten "If you like Justis or Whitten, then don't bother looking at my new case.........". At least Jack does, or at one point, did all the work on his cases. And he's also not an arrogant dink.
Bu bye, Barbie.
John Barton said:
You asked me to find someone to build cases for me, and then you'd see if they were truly good, and a value. I showed you a few lines of cues produced that are as nice. Don't take pride in work that isn't yours. Your tooler does nice work. You didn't tool it, John. Ying Sung did.
Take your $1000 and invest in counselling. Charm school. Play McWhorter for it. Have a kick-off with Reyes, or a jump off with Ned Morris. You go do what you need to to get off on yourself. Your case is nothing more than an Instroke (your design, right?) with some extra tooling by one of your workers. You open up on your description of your new case by bashing Justis and Whitten "If you like Justis or Whitten, then don't bother looking at my new case.........". At least Jack does, or at one point, did all the work on his cases. And he's also not an arrogant dink.
Bu bye, Barbie.
John Barton
New member
Shawn Armstrong said:
It was tongue in cheek about Jack and Dan's stuff - but i couldn't expect you with your comprehension deficiencies to get that.
I take pride in bringing something into the world that would NOT exist except for my efforts to create it. You showed me only what exists because of my efforts. Instrokes and Win cases exist solely because I created them. Not you Shawn. You can order some and make whatever profit you can on them but ONLY because I created them for you to be able to do it.
I am only arrogant when it comes to you and people like you. Because YOU have to INVENT hysteria to validate your personal distaste. Then when called on it you will go to great lengths to attempt to denigrate and discredit the person who called you on the BS. As if that would somehow make your fantasy true.
The very fact that you keep referring to my people as Yung Sing and other similar names shows just what a racist you are. But you are the worst kind, the kind that thinks he is superior to people in places "less developed" just because you happen to live where you do. You are the kind of racist who won't admit it, you don't even have the cojones to admit to it and intstead just dance around your comments as if they had no other meaning.
I hope you are done, because I have to conclude that your constant attempts to "get" me and the resulting smackdown can only mean you enjoy the abuse.
Of course you don't want to take the bet - you can't do it. That's the difference between us - I can get things done. You can only play with the toys I create. You can't create them.
Jack does do all the work on his cases. He's a fine craftsman who has settled on the style that he prefers to do. If having everything made by one person is your standard of quality then Jack is your man. Somehow though I don't think that this really matters to you Shawn. I think that you just want to say whatever you think will discredit me. Unfortunately for you I have always been 100% upfront about how I make cases and why. So it's a little disingenious to try and put me down for something that is a well known and accepted method. Do you think every Stradivarious was made by Stradivarious himself? How about every Porsche? Were they all done by Fernidand himself? Even the Dutch master painters had studios where apprentices did a lot of the painting under the tutelage and direction of the master and the master signed it.
I know that you understand this concept but are grasping for anything at all.
Adios, don't let the door hit you on the way out.