What do you guys think of my cue?

[Cornerman]

I will ask you one time point blank.. when or what do I do that betrays myself as something I am not? Be specific and prove it to the contrary. If not, do yourself a favor and shut up. I am not sitting here telling everyone you haven't had a girlfriend in 20 years and yet at every pool / trade exhibit your bunking with the same GUY.

I can't see how the first part of your quote is related to the second part.

None of this is my business, but I'll put forth the questions rather than this implied bull$hit:

Are you or are you not a partner in Classiccues.com?
Do you buy and sell cues as a business?
Does your knowledge of cues portrayed on this board come from you, or from someone else?

I know the answers to these questions, but they are the underlying implications that are brought up. For me, I have no hesitation in asking Joe Van Buren about cues.

Now, to be fair, I'll bring up the other crap:

Has JimBo had a girlfriend in the last 20 years?
Does JimBo bunk with a GUY other than for the convenience of sharing a room with a friend?

I also know the answers to these questions, since I am that GUY. For me, I have no hesitation in bunking with JimBo. Or his girlfriend, for that matter.

Fred

 

[classiccues]

I can't see how the first part of your quote is related to the second part.

None of this is my business, but I'll put forth the questions rather than this implied bull$hit:

Are you or are you not a partner in Classiccues.com?
Do you buy and sell cues as a business?
Does your knowledge of cues portrayed on this board come from you, or from someone else?

I know the answers to these questions, but they are the underlying implications that are brought up. For me, I have no hesitation in asking Joe Van Buren about cues.

Now, to be fair, I'll bring up the other crap:

Has JimBo had a girlfriend in the last 20 years?
Does JimBo bunk with a GUY other than for the convenience of sharing a room with a friend?

I also know the answers to these questions, since I am that GUY. For me, I have no hesitation in bunking with JimBo. Or his girlfriend, for that matter.

Fred

Fred,

To answer your questions, I use the name classiccues, it was the name of the site in which PTM posted cues, while pooltablemagic.com was being squatted. Pool table magic now has pooltablemagic.com, and.net classiccues continues to be its mirror, since people had 2 years of using classiccues.com as the url. I have said this at least 25 times. No, buying and selling cues are not my primary business, it is a hobby. My knowledge, is my knowledge. I don't portray it any other way, I never have and I never will. It took me years to aquire and thats that.

IMHO I know you read the flames, so its funny to me when he brings up something so irrelevant as my friendship with Mark, you don't say anything. Especially since you know. But now when the irrelevancy is YOU, you have something to say.

As far as the other.. It's the same question I ask everytime Jim makes an accusation about Mark and I. Since he wants to sling friendships and innuendos about those friendships around, we can both play that game.

Joe

 

[Cornerman]

Fred,
Here..
http://cgi.ebay.com/McWorter-Custom-Cue-Serial-Number-0943_W0QQitemZ7215644521QQcategoryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is one of two 6 point, 3 hi, 3 lo McWorters that have been on ebay this week. They both have the primary woods seperated by a veneer ring in the butt sleeve, another SW trademark. Now, if the defense is going to be he used silver trim rings, then it all horse sh**. Because in all Jim's examples of Phillipi and other cues, changing the rings was NOT good enough to seperate the designs. Since the 6 point cue 3 hi and 3 low, with the veneered back end is commonly acknowledged as a South West innovation, than this cue is without defense, a copy.

Joe

C'mon Joe. This cue is even farther off from a SW ripoff than Jerry's earlier cues.

The SW ripoff has its own parameters that people enjoy ripping off, and there are different combinations of the rippoff. Previously mentioned cues have everything down to the dimensions the same, but they have different ring checkwork. Others cuemaker have exactly the same design work, but then change some dimensions. Both are different, but both are ripping off SW, and are intended to do so. How one rips off a SW might not come in the same form as how one would rip off a McWorter or a Ginacue.

The Phillippi doesn't seem to have any other intention other than to copy some of the most unique design aspects from Ginacue. It's not like inlaying propellors or peacocks. They're incorporating entire CNC patterns.

Again, there is no specific line. Some people have their line drawn here, some drawn there. IMO, anyone who is serious about buying cues that doesn't have a line drawn somewhere (even if it's a big wideass line) should have their motivations questioned.

Fred

 

[classiccues]

C'mon Joe. This cue is even farther off from a SW ripoff than Jerry's earlier cues.

The SW ripoff has its own parameters that people enjoy ripping off, and there are different combinations of the rippoff. Previously mentioned cues have everything down to the dimensions the same, but they have different ring checkwork. Others cuemaker have exactly the same design work, but then change some dimensions. Both are different, but both are ripping off SW, and are intended to do so. How one rips off a SW might not come in the same form as how one would rip off a McWorter or a Ginacue.

The Phillippi doesn't seem to have any other intention other than to copy some of the most unique design aspects from Ginacue. It's not like inlaying propellors or peacocks. They're incorporating entire CNC patterns.

Again, there is no specific line. Some people have their line drawn here, some drawn there. IMO, anyone who is serious about buying cues that doesn't have a line drawn somewhere (even if it's a big wideass line) should have their motivations questioned.

Fred

Theft is theft.. I will say it again. Jim calls it design theft, is the 3 hi, 3 low, split backend with veneers a South West design? The answer is YES.
But are you saying that the peacock or propellor has no design creator? I mean it took Gus time to design, right? How can anyone theorize that design theft has to be complicated to be theft? Thats like saying stealing 100 dollars is less wrong than stealing 1000.

Joe

 

[Cornerman]

Theft is theft.. I will say it again. Jim calls it design theft, is the 3 hi, 3 low, split backend with veneers a South West design? The answer is YES.


Joe

This is why I said that people will have a line here, or there. Do YOU draw a line somewhere? It sounds like you don't have a line. It also reads from past posts that you don't have any problem with any cue design.

Me, I have a wide line. Any 3 hi, 3 low split butt sleeve does not constitute a South West. The hi to low ratio is important. The split dimension is important. The dimension between points at the A joint is important. When a cuemaker starts to copy all of those, then they're stealing, IMO. That's my line. If a cuemaker makes high thin points that are greater in hi/low ratio, and the points are touching at the A joint, or the split is equal, and/or if they use wood combinations that South West doesn't use, then it no longer has the South West look.

But are you saying that the peacock or propellor has no design creator? I mean it took Gus time to design, right? How can anyone theorize that design theft has to be complicated to be theft? Thats like saying stealing 100 dollars is less wrong than stealing 1000.

I DO have a problem with people inlaying peacocks and propellors. What I was trying to stress is that what Phillippi is doing is well beyond that and that even if a buyer can't decide where he draws the line, I would think that the Phillippi copies are well beyond that line.

Fred

 

[classiccues]

This is why I said that people will have a line here, or there. Do YOU draw a line somewhere? It sounds like you don't have a line. It also reads from past posts that you don't have any problem with any cue design.

Me, I have a wide line. Any 3 hi, 3 low split butt sleeve does not constitute a South West. The hi to low ratio is important. The split dimension is important. The dimension between points at the A joint is important. When a cuemaker starts to copy all of those, then they're stealing, IMO. That's my line. If a cuemaker makes high thin points that are greater in hi/low ratio, and the points are touching at the A joint, or the split is equal, and/or if they use wood combinations that South West doesn't use, then it no longer has the South West look.

I DO have a problem with people inlaying peacocks and propellors. What I was trying to stress is that what Phillippi is doing is well beyond that and that even if a buyer can't decide where he draws the line, I would think that the Phillippi copies are well beyond that line.

Fred

Fred,
You're right I have a very wide line, that could be construed as no line. Your opinion on the McWorter is fine, and I understand where you are coming from. But its not your opinion I am looking for. By someone elses standards, that McWorter is a SW knock off.

Do you think Cokers are SW knock offs?

IMHO stealing is stealing. (not that I care, I don't deal in greys) If someone made a cue with four peacock inlays, its the same as Phillippi making a Rasputin. You're an engineer, if you created a new paperclip (trivial) and got a copyright or patent, wouldn't you want to be protected as much as the guy with the patent for an artificial hip?
Joe

 

[Jeff]

Fred,
You're right I have a very wide line, that could be construed as no line. Your opinion on the McWorter is fine, and I understand where you are coming from. But its not your opinion I am looking for. By someone elses standards, that McWorter is a SW knock off.

Do you think Cokers are SW knock offs?

I'm of the opinion that at this point, any stick made (not counting inlays) has been made before. Do you think there is ANY wood or ANY combination of wood that hasn't been used in a stick? A common stick has a butt, a handle, a forearm, and a shaft....there are only so many combinations that can be used.

I think that is one reason cuemakers are using the technology that is available today to produce more and more extremely intricate designs, because without that, it is just impossible to produce a cue that hasn't been made before.

 

[Cornerman]

Do you think Cokers are SW knock offs?

Yes, I do. Their rings are different, and that's pretty much it. I measure one (and only one), and the measurements I was talking about were entirely too close. From a few feet, you'd swear they were a SW, since many of the color combinations were also classic SW. So, they've pushed it pretty far.

But, there's worse than Coker out there.

You're an engineer, if you created a new paperclip (trivial) and got a copyright or patent, wouldn't you want to be protected as much as the guy with the patent for an artificial hip?
Joe

Of course I'd want it protected. I think that's what I've been saying. The peacock, as I said, I have a problem with people copying that design. Are you saying you also do have a problem with people copying designs of cues?

Fred

 

[cueaddicts]

Yes, I do. Their rings are different, and that's pretty much it. I measure one (and only one), and the measurements I was talking about were entirely too close. From a few feet, you'd swear they were a SW, since many of the color combinations were also classic SW. So, they've pushed it pretty far.

But, there's worse than Coker out there.
Fred

Fred, just curious.......do you consider this to be a SW knock-off, copy, or what ???

I would venture a guess to say Jim would think this is a "knock-off", but IMO there are obvious differences with respect to specs of the cue's butt diameter and taper, pin, point depth, veneer thickness, wrap bed length, rings (Andy always sets his rings inside phenolic on both sides...SW does not), etc. which should be evident in the scans of a SW provided just below it.

Just curious.

Sean

 

[classiccues]

Yes, I do. Their rings are different, and that's pretty much it. I measure one (and only one), and the measurements I was talking about were entirely too close. From a few feet, you'd swear they were a SW, since many of the color combinations were also classic SW. So, they've pushed it pretty far.

But, there's worse than Coker out there.

Of course I'd want it protected. I think that's what I've been saying. The peacock, as I said, I have a problem with people copying that design. Are you saying you also do have a problem with people copying designs of cues?

Fred

Fred,
We have been talking asthetics, and design. IMHO There isn't a Coker I have seen that has the degree of South West copying that the McWorter on ebay has. I have yet to see ONE that had a split material backend and have yet to see one with South West rings. No one would mistake a Coker for a SW. You can go to Erik Lee's site, you can go to any site selling Cokers and none have anything that would be considered classic south west except 3 hi and 3 lo. I also think its a very fine line trying to equate the available wood combinations as "design" criteria. There are only so many woods that really mesh.

For me to even consider a cue a "copy" or "inspiration" using a South West for criteria, it would have to have the 6 points in similar fashion, the split material backend, the sw ringblocks. Cokers have only had one of the three, while the McWorter on ebay has 2 of the 3. http://cgi.ebay.com/JERRY-MCWORTER-CUE-0725-6-POINT-PLAYERS-CUE_W0QQitemZ7212517240QQcategoryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

No, I have no problem with it. I have a problem when people try to justify the amount of stealing that constitues theft. It is, or it isn't.

Joe

 

[JimBo]

To be honest with you Jimbo, i wouldnt care if my thread only had 13 post or not,it makes no difference,but atleast it would be 13 post on what the topic was,not 50 on stuff i dont give a shi* about.I said SW style and you were crying theft,

My reply to your original post was "I hope you don't ask him to make a copy" does that really sound like crying to you?? Please learn to read and don't get all caught up with the stalkers.

big deal,i dont really care,

Then I guess what I did worked, cause now you seem to care lots :-D

i will do as i please and have a cue made the way i want,it wont be a knockoff,it wont be a carbon copy,i dont think Greg would do that anyway.

I've never talked to him about it, but next time I see him I am going to.

I was upset that my post was hijacked,

YOUR thread LOL, let me get you a tissue.

but oh well and since it was my origianl post that was why i have been replying,

Maybe next time YOU post something you can make a list of who can and can't post to it and also let us know what we can or can't say in our replies.

you were trying to "educate" me

Not you, lots of people and since it's been viewed so much I'm pretty sure I did the job I set out to do, thanks for all your help.

on something i already know,

I doubt you knew anything about, hell from this post alone it's clear you don't even read very well.But guess what?? You know now:-D Thanks again buddy.

its wrong in my eyes but do i care as much as you?

How would you know how much I care about anything??

,no,not even a little bit,i am not a cuemaker so i dont think it hits home.

I'm not a cuemaker either so I guess the same applies to me.

I dont think your a bad guy and im sure you dont care whether i do either,but you jump to conclusions,

I said "I hope you don't ask him to make you a copy" What was the conclusion? I think you read way to much into my words, they were very basic, first I was crying and now I'm jumping hmmmmm seems you are the one who reads too deep into things.

you read to deep into stuff,where did this turn into cue design theft?

Again I wish you'd learn to read, I said "I hope you don't ask the guy to make a copy" and then OTHER people jumped in and ran with that, 1 person can't hyjack a thread, if nobody cared then everyone would have just ignored it and carried on the way you dreamed it was going to go, but it didn't happen if you want to go back and see how it evolved you can easily, it's all still there.

,all because i said SW style,well enough of this

I agree, why did you post this? I mean I started a new topic for this type of stuff, yet you continue to want to post off topic here, please use the other thread from now on.

,you think i am some newbie on this site who doesnt know anything and am clueless,

Where did you get that impression? all I said was I hope you don't ask him to make a copy. I think you're reading too deep into things and jumping to conclusions;-D

i have watched this forum for over a year,

I believe this to be a lie, if it were true you'd have known all about the cue design theft thing, and you would have never asked where it came from. But it is a comon lie, people try that line all the time "I've been reading for XXXX and just decided to post now LOL.

just started posting 4 months ago and love the game and custom cues,

Me 2, seems like we have lots in comon.

lets just leave it at that,but for some reason i dont think you will,you have to always have the last word,childish IMHO,

Kinda like what you're doing with this post? I started a new thread yet you had to post one more time? I guess I'll just let you have your last word then :-D

when i have my cue made and its finished then i will post pics

I HOPE YOU DON'T ASK HIM TO MAKE A COPY.

then you can cry theft

Cry???

or just say nice cue as you should have about this post and my cue now.

As I should have?? What if I don't like the cue, should I just not post because when you asked how we liked it what you really meant was only those who like it and want to say so can post to MY thread. I would have thought after your YEAR of reading here you would have learned that not everyone agrees here, I don't think you're cut out for opinions, maybe you should have hung it on the fridge in your house and then everyone would have had nice words to say about it. BTW I happen to like the cue and greg, but it's not important at this point.

As for the whole Adams copy thing,

I have no idea what you're talking about, this is something you brought up, not me. If it really bothers you maybe you should have started a new thread like I did. I don't want to comment on that here it's off topic.

here is your link to all the copied Rambow,Paradise and Bushkas,so i guess im ignorant and uninformed, http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cues/hall_of_fame/hall_of_fame_series_pg2.htm ,it has all these remakes of cues made for Crane and Balsis,these are exact copies in every detail,so thats not theft?

Lenny

It's not? As I've said many times there are many gray areas and it's not up to me to set the line. To me what matters is what the cuemakers think and from this post alone we've heard about what 3 of them think, I'd like to thank them for posting their opinions.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Did Andy Gilbert chime in? I must have missed it. Oh.. I get it.. another lie.

Joe

Lord Shar who worked very close with Andy on the cue said he asked, not me. As far as I know Lord Shar is not a liar, are you calling him a liar? Joe there is a new thread for your twisting, please try to use it from now on, you're making lenny very mad.

Jim

 

[Cornerman]

Fred,
We have been talking asthetics, and design.

That's twice now Joe it doesn't seem like you read what I said. Obviously we're talking abou the aesthetics and design. The measurement I was talking about were the actual measurements of the aesthetic features.

IMHO There isn't a Coker I have seen that has the degree of South West copying that the McWorter on ebay has.

A few years ago at the BCA Nationals event, someone was selling Cokers. Their were about a dozen cues. If you saw them, I think your above statement would change.

http://www.indyq.com/custom/coker/12-20-d-cue.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7214020387&category=21212

Just a couple that have the split butt sleeve, just to show that they make them.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Fred, just curious.......do you consider this to be a SW knock-off, copy, or what ???

I don't consider it a SW knock-off or copy.

Fred

 

[JimBo]

I will ask you one time point blank.. when or what do I do that betrays myself as something I am not? Be specific and prove it to the contrary. If not, do yourself a favor and shut up. I am not sitting here telling everyone you haven't had a girlfriend in 20 years and yet at every pool / trade exhibit your bunking with the same GUY.

Joe

Joe

How dare you!!!!! I'm offended!! My relationship with my Man-Friend is nobody's business and it's not part of this debate, you keep him out of it.
I'm sorry Joe you ignore every question asked of you yet you want me to address each of yours that are off topic and have nothing to do with the debate. I will answer anything you want once you post up that list of my Heros and let us all know where you got the copy. The funny part is that a few here know exactly what I'm talking about and seeing you get so angry over it cracks me up, I'm sure they are all laughing as well. BTW Joe there is a new thread just for this stuff, please try to use it, you are making lenny very mad, this is HIS thread.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Jim: I only bring up Mark because you guys must be partners, I mean in all your posts it's US and WE, your name is Classiccues, you guys must be partners, why would you get upset with me bringing him up? After all you spoeak for the two of you, I'm sure you know when I say Mark I mean you:-D

That’s right, sometimes it’s us, me, we depends upon the circumstance. We both contribute cues to the website, so that’s a we, we will both be at the show so it’s a we, Mark has a collection so that’s a him, I own some cues and that’s me, we are partners on some cues and that’s a we or us. So I ask you again, show me where I have ever stated anything but this. I am waiting for the 100th time.

Jim: I don't make excuses, I just relaid a story, the list is only in your head, and that's why I find it funny that you can't write it down for us all. I know it's a waste of time but I'm going to say it one more time for your benifit, read slow Joe. It's wrong NO MATTER who does it, I would never defend anyone who does it, I have never defended Thomas for knocking off Jerry and I won't defend Jerry even though I have no idea what cue you're talking about. Although what if Jerry M asked Jerry F if he could do it? I mean in my book that makes it fine, when you ask you aren't stealing and as we've learned many people do have the state of mind to ask, that must mean something right Joe? I mean why do YOU think they would ask? I mean if there is no reason since it's ok to steal, why do you think these guys ask????

We are all still waiting for to go after certain cuemakers and single them out. The best you do when its one of your “friends”, “heros” or whatever is say exactly this. “It’s wrong no matter who does it”, but yet when DZ or Phillippi or some cuemaker you never have to face, or want to face, does it you have no problem singling them out. Do you know if Jerry asked Jerry? If you don’t, its irrelevant. As far as your list, you have one here in this thread and have posted it many times in reference to all these “creative, original” minds that would never copy a cue design. (yeah right) So there is no need for me to post it.

Jim: Crying Joe?? Come on you overreact and lie as always. Why would I cry Joe? What do I have to gain or lose? Come on Joe please just try to us a touch of comon sense.

You cry every time you get to a see a cue made in the style of someone who didn’t invent the style. Your motive is simple, you think everytime you complain and front this “cue design issue” that all the cuemakers that might believe the same thing will give you a break when you buy a cue. Your motive seems to also be financially backed.

Joe

This post may be funnier then your previous homophobic one, I'd just like to point out that I have started a new thread for this, please stop making lenny mad.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Has Jerry McWorter made cues that look like South Wests? I know his early works were 3 hi-3low, but the ones I've seen wouldn't be confused with any South Wests.

If he's made a few that do look just like a South West, I wouldn't think he'd be very proud of them. Nor do I think he'd make one today. He's built such a name for himself and his unique design style.

To put Jerry's name into the "ripping off South West design" group is, IMO, far off base when compared to some cuemakers out there that really make cues that are indistiguishable from a South West.

Fred

Fred please don't take Joe too serious, he thinks he's found some imaginary list of guys that are on a list I own and all he tries to do is drag them through the mudd. Mark K (the owner of PTM/Classiccues& the guy Joe works for) doesn't sell cues made by Jerry and that means Joe can try to bash them as much as possible. He is driven by this make believe list and when he thinks it will some how hurt me he'll lie and stretch the truth as much as he can.

Jim

 

[Jeff]

Well, I just added the first name to my ignore list, and I've got to say, it makes the thread a whole lot easier to read.

I don't why I didn't this before.

 

[JimBo]

Theft is theft.. I will say it again. Jim calls it design theft, is the 3 hi, 3 low, split backend with veneers a South West design? The answer is YES.
But are you saying that the peacock or propellor has no design creator? I mean it took Gus time to design, right? How can anyone theorize that design theft has to be complicated to be theft? Thats like saying stealing 100 dollars is less wrong than stealing 1000.

Joe

Joe, please don't attempt to speak for me, I'm right here and can easily let anyone with any questions as to what *I* think. The words you try to put in my mouth are *YOUR* version, not mine and they are lies to suite your side of the issue. Please stick to defending your side and not interpreting my side. As far as the money goes, yes there are different penalties as far as how much you steal, taking a dime is much less jail time then stealing millions. In the same way stealing a complex cue design from a 1 of a kind or unique cue is compared to a plain jane cue, but of course you knew this, since you seem to know all my thoughts so well. I say there is a large gray area, black and white is your version used to excuse what you do. I would also add that I don't think Joe steals designs, hell I don't think Joe orders many cues (his wife won't let him) as to why he gets so defensive I doubt I'll ever know.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Fred, just curious.......do you consider this to be a SW knock-off, copy, or what ???

I would venture a guess to say Jim would think this is a "knock-off", but IMO there are obvious differences with respect to specs of the cue's butt diameter and taper, pin, point depth, veneer thickness, wrap bed length, rings (Andy always sets his rings inside phenolic on both sides...SW does not), etc. which should be evident in the scans of a SW provided just below it.

Just curious.

Sean

]

Why would you venture anything? I mean why not just ask Jim, I hear he's right here and reads this stuff, I bet if you just asked him he'd say it's close, but OK. I think the rings are very different from SW rings and the butt section is also different, but again the more simplistic the cue the less design to steal and thus less material to steal, once inlays come into it it's much easier to comment. A very complex cue will have many more things to compare as well as many more things to detract (if you understand my point) then a basic 4 point 4 inlay cue.

Jim