What do you guys think of my cue?

[JimBo]

I don't why I didn't this before.

I been asking myself the same thing... I think???
LOL
Jim

 

[classiccues]

That's twice now Joe it doesn't seem like you read what I said. Obviously we're talking abou the aesthetics and design. The measurement I was talking about were the actual measurements of the aesthetic features.

A few years ago at the BCA Nationals event, someone was selling Cokers. Their were about a dozen cues. If you saw them, I think your above statement would change.

http://www.indyq.com/custom/coker/12-20-d-cue.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7214020387&category=21212

Just a couple that have the split butt sleeve, just to show that they make them.

Fred

Ok but none of them would be confused with a SW. If you look at either of these and think its a SW then you haven't been around cues long. Are they South West styled.. absolutely.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

How dare you!!!!! I'm offended!! My relationship with my Man-Friend is nobody's business and it's not part of this debate, you keep him out of it.
I'm sorry Joe you ignore every question asked of you yet you want me to address each of yours that are off topic and have nothing to do with the debate. I will answer anything you want once you post up that list of my Heros and let us all know where you got the copy. The funny part is that a few here know exactly what I'm talking about and seeing you get so angry over it cracks me up, I'm sure they are all laughing as well. BTW Joe there is a new thread just for this stuff, please try to use it, you are making lenny very mad, this is HIS thread.

Jim

To bad.

I answer all 99% of the questions you ask. You can't answer any basic question that is asked of you. I don't have to answer a question that you have posted here numerous times.

Joe (--BTW nice try on the flip

 

[classiccues]

Joe, please don't attempt to speak for me, I'm right here and can easily let anyone with any questions as to what *I* think. The words you try to put in my mouth are *YOUR* version, not mine and they are lies to suite your side of the issue. Please stick to defending your side and not interpreting my side. As far as the money goes, yes there are different penalties as far as how much you steal, taking a dime is much less jail time then stealing millions. In the same way stealing a complex cue design from a 1 of a kind or unique cue is compared to a plain jane cue, but of course you knew this, since you seem to know all my thoughts so well. I say there is a large gray area, black and white is your version used to excuse what you do. I would also add that I don't think Joe steals designs, hell I don't think Joe orders many cues (his wife won't let him) as to why he gets so defensive I doubt I'll ever know.

Jim

You have already spoke for yourself. But just answer the question already.
Moving from Mark to my wife, nice. The problem is you don't know me and yet to keep talking like you do. Your still an idiot.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

Lord Shar who worked very close with Andy on the cue said he asked, not me. As far as I know Lord Shar is not a liar, are you calling him a liar? Joe there is a new thread for your twisting, please try to use it from now on, you're making lenny very mad.

Jim

But thats not what you said.. You said we heard from three cuemakers..
last I looked Lord Shar wasn't a cuemaker.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

Why would you venture anything? I mean why not just ask Jim, I hear he's right here and reads this stuff, I bet if you just asked him he'd say it's close, but OK. I think the rings are very different from SW rings and the butt section is also different, but again the more simplistic the cue the less design to steal and thus less material to steal, once inlays come into it it's much easier to comment. A very complex cue will have many more things to compare as well as many more things to detract (if you understand my point) then a basic 4 point 4 inlay cue.

Jim

So answer the question, is it or isn't it a knock off? You don't even know where your own line is.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

This post may be funnier then your previous homophobic one, I'd just like to point out that I have started a new thread for this, please stop making lenny mad.

Jim

Well one homophobic post deserves another...

Joe

 

[lord_shar]

I'm not angry at all, I'm just getting my opinion out there and also bringing awareness to a problem, you'll find that the only people who want to argue are those trying to sell cues.

Even if actual tempers aren't flaring, these chosen words implied otherwise:

Life is short and you have the money is NOT an excuse for stealing, the fact that it's hard to get one is also not an excuse. It really pisses me off that this is somehow an excepted excuse for something that is wrong.
...<SNIP>...

I agree with your message, but as I mentioned before, the line was not previously stated between similar-styled one-of-a-kinds vs. blatant counterfeits. I thought the two were being lumped together when I first read your arguments. If you are actually differentiating between the two, then we do concur.

...<SNIP>...
As far as Flames go I think you are way to thin skinned and your wanting more censorship scares me, if this type of debate truly bothers you why read it? Is there a person forcing you to open this thread every few hours?

No, this debate does not bother me... I find it quite interesting. Otherwise, I wouldn't check it every so often. However, I don't think flames are required to make any point. We're all adults here, so we should know better. The rules of these forums are clearly stated in this thread:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=25061

...and I see the line being liberally crossed every so often with attack and counter-attack. The topic then disappears in a volley of irrelevant insults, which is why I believe some moderation is occasionally required.

It's a news group about pool in a cue section, this is a very important cue issue, there is no hijack as far as I'm concerned, Greg has not been brought up or dragged through the mud, the thread has evolved and there has been some good debate.

I don't agree that a hijack did not happen here. A separate topic's importance doesn't give anyone blanket-permission to override the thread-originator's first topic inquiry, even if it belongs in the same forum. If a topic is important enough to require healthy debate, then it's not a problem to start its own separate thread. Thread hijacks are normally considered bad netiquette in every other forum I've visited. As a result, they are usually not often tolerated by other forum mods. However, I did see a new thread started for the Design-theft issue, which is a good way to correct the detour.

But again what I think we can take from your post is that Andy asked permission.

Jim

I believe so... at least that was what J.H. (Andy's net rep) mentioned to me before Andy accepted my cue request. I made it clear to him that I wanted a unique playing cue, and I was most happy with the results.

Back to our civil discussion

 

[Fast Lenny]

Lenny,

I really like your cue from Greg. I like the woods used, and I think it has a nice, balanced design element to it. Quite lovely. I hope you enjoy it for a long time to come.

Lisa

Thanks,i have enjoyed the cue and like his work.

As for Jimbo,i dont care if someone said my cue was ugly,i just wanted opinions on my cue,you didnt say anything about my cue positive or negative,you just went straight out and said dont have him make a copy of a SW,pretty stupid if you ask me because i never said i was going to,your a fool in my book,keep on your crusade which will never do a damn thing, people will continue to buy whatever they want from whomever whether its a knockoff or not.I just think you should have posted a seperate topic from the get go,everyone else in this debate replied to my topic and gave opinons then they went into a debate with you,you didnt even do that much.Well this is getting old,i guess i reply because its fun to see you take so much time to discect every sentence and reply,you must have alot of time on your hands.
Well take care Jimbo,i hope you dont act like this in VF because some of these cuemakers whom you are saying are copycats might not be to happy with you.
Lenny

 

[JimBo]

Ok but none of them would be confused with a SW. If you look at either of these and think its a SW then you haven't been around cues long. Are they South West styled.. absolutely.

Joe

Why should you have to be around cues a certain legnth of time to know?
Many people who have played pool for a long time could be fooled and have been. BTW Joe there is a new topic for this please stop hyjacking the thread.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

You have already spoke for yourself. But just answer the question already.
Moving from Mark to my wife, nice. The problem is you don't know me and yet to keep talking like you do. Your still an idiot.

Joe

I think I know you pretty good Joe, we've talked for hours and have met a hundred times over the past 10 years, I also know Mark pretty well, in fact I've known him longer then you. I also find it odd that you seem to want to comment on me as if you've known me a long time yet when the reverse happens you want to claim we have never met. Hell I would bet that I know you better then almost anyone who posts here, we are still friends aren't we Joe?

Jim <---Joe's pal

PS there is a new thread for this Joe, please stop hyjacking it

 

[JimBo]

But thats not what you said.. You said we heard from three cuemakers..
last I looked Lord Shar wasn't a cuemaker.

Joe

Joe as your good friend I'm asking you to please stop the hyjack and move your replies to the thread made for this topic, please I beg of you.

And while you are trying to twist words and back pedal with everything so literal why don't you also point out that Skins doesn't make cues either, so in fact it's only 1 cuemaker. But that 1 has a hell of a lot more expertise and pull (at least in my mind) then one wanna-be cue dealer who's main purpose is to baby-sit cues and lug them back to the room for the guy who owns them, and reply to e-mails and run a web-site for a computer dumb dumb.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

So answer the question, is it or isn't it a knock off? You don't even know where your own line is.

Joe

I know where my line is, I'll speak on it in the thread made just for this topic, please stop your hyjacking Joe.

Jim <---Your oldest pal here

 

[JimBo]

Thanks,i have enjoyed the cue and like his work.

As for Jimbo,i dont care if someone said my cue was ugly,i just wanted opinions on my cue,you didnt say anything about my cue positive or negative,

In my second post I said "I happen to like Greg and I like his cues" I think that covers the cue since it was made by him. I happen to like it.

you just went straight out and said dont have him make a copy of a SW,pretty stupid if you ask me because i never said i was going to,

Might be stupid, but since it happens every day I don't find it stupid. since your claim is you aren't going to do it I guess time will tell.

your a fool in my book,

That's fine, but what about this topic do you find foolish?

keep on your crusade which will never do a damn thing,

I believe you are wrong, I believe some people have never even given this a second thought and although they may not like or want to listen to me they may listen to someone like Skins or Sherm who point out how they feel and go about doing business.

people will continue to buy whatever they want from whomever whether its a knockoff or not.

I also believe that more and more REAL cuemakers will stop doing this when and if people point it out to them, I know for a fact it was brought up to ANdy Gilbert and his claim was that he would try to stop making cues that could be considered stolen designs, I think after a while a guy gets to a point where he doesn't need the business as bad and he wants his cues to stand on their own. Sure with all the overnight guys there will always be that group who have no design talent and will just make anything if you pay them, but those guy's cues won't be worth owning in 10 years and they will slowly go away.

I just think you should have posted a seperate topic from the get go,

No thanks, it fit in your topic, since your last thread was asking about a certain cue and then stating you want one just like it made, seems to me this worked just fine. But I will also add that I have since tried to move it for YOU, but my good friend Joe will not help out. Since we are buddies I have to apologize for him.

everyone else in this debate replied to my topic and gave opinons then they went into a debate with you,

I can see how you think I MADE them do that, sorry again.

you didnt even do that much.

So now you can see that it wasn't all my fault? Thanks for the apology.

Well this is getting old,

I agree.

i guess i reply because its fun to see you take so much time to discect every sentence and reply,

I didn't want you to think you were unimportant, specially since you helped the cause out so much. If ever you want someone to pay attention to your every word you just write me, I'm here for you dude.

you must have alot of time on your hands.

Yeah I do.

Well take care Jimbo,

You 2 buddy

i hope you dont act like this in VF because some of these cuemakers whom you are saying are copycats might not be to happy with you.
Lenny

I will be in VF and happy to meet anyone from here or any of the cuemakers, I will also be happy to debate any of the cuemakers there on this topic, I don't worry to much about how they feel about it since I really believe I am right on this one and I doubt they want to carry on about a topic they are wrong about. Everyone does it isn't really a good defense when you really think about it, but if you disagree try it next time you get pulled over for speeding.

Jim

 

[Cornerman]

Ok but none of them would be confused with a SW. If you look at either of these and think its a SW then you haven't been around cues long. Are they South West styled.. absolutely.

Joe

Christ Joe. I said I was putting those up just to show that they do make a split back butt sleeve. I'd put up another one that doesn't have a split back, but (other than their rings) looks just like a SouthWest in the Blue Book.

And as I also said, Coker is far less a problem then others. If you want to talk about those other cuemakers, then we'd have a little more meaningful discussion. Coker is mentioned because they are on eBay all the time, being described as "just like a South West."

Fred

 

[runscott]

So answer the question, is it or isn't it a knock off? You don't even know where your own line is.

Joe

Hey Joe, take it easy - cue design theft is no laughing matter. Imagine how pissed off the guy on the left was when he showed up to the pool hall with his own personal design, and finds his buddy has abandoned his broomstick handle and shown up instead with an exact copy of his design! Meanwhile, the guy on the far right sneaks out the door and starts producing and selling a hybrid copy, with HIS OWN NAME signed on the handle!!!!

Attrocious. Not to mention how pissed off the guys in Scotland were when they found out these English b*stards were playing pool using their golf club designs.

 

[classiccues]

Christ Joe. I said I was putting those up just to show that they do make a split back butt sleeve. I'd put up another one that doesn't have a split back, but (other than their rings) looks just like a SouthWest in the Blue Book.

And as I also said, Coker is far less a problem then others. If you want to talk about those other cuemakers, then we'd have a little more meaningful discussion. Coker is mentioned because they are on eBay all the time, being described as "just like a South West."

Fred

Fred,
I know why you put them there and since I had never seen one with the split sleeve, I thank you. But IMHO to say they are a SW knock off and the Gilbert Sean put up, or the McWorter just proved my point about favoritism. I know you like Andy, and thats well and good. But his SW style, is better than the McW and the Coker put together. It's not even debatable.
BTW you cannot chastise a cuemaker because some nit wants to say just like a SW. If it was Grady Coker, then ok, it means something.

Joe

 

[Cornerman]

Fred,
I know why you put them there and since I had never seen one with the split sleeve, I thank you. But IMHO to say they are a SW knock off and the Gilbert Sean put up, or the McWorter just proved my point about favoritism. I know you like Andy, and thats well and good. But his SW style, is better than the McW and the Coker put together. It's not even debatable.

I think you must have blinders on. Not only have I openly said that I don't like it when Gilbert makes a South West knock-off, but I've also told him in person. And I rib him every time I see him.

Andy has shown such talent, he doesn't need to make South West style cues. But, he's unfortunately gained a reputation for making "good South West copies." IMO, he needs to get away from that. His own style is too good to be mixed up with someone else's style.

Fred

 

[classiccues]

Why should you have to be around cues a certain legnth of time to know?
Many people who have played pool for a long time could be fooled and have been. BTW Joe there is a new topic for this please stop hyjacking the thread.

Jim

Show me ONE person, around pool and cues for a long time, that thought a Coker was a South West after having it in their hands.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

I think I know you pretty good Joe, we've talked for hours and have met a hundred times over the past 10 years, I also know Mark pretty well, in fact I've known him longer then you. I also find it odd that you seem to want to comment on me as if you've known me a long time yet when the reverse happens you want to claim we have never met. Hell I would bet that I know you better then almost anyone who posts here, we are still friends aren't we Joe?

Jim <---Joe's pal

PS there is a new thread for this Joe, please stop hyjacking it

Jim,
100 times, give it a rest. And about me admitting knowing you, are you kidding, I deny having ever met you at any chance I get.

I bet you don't know me nearly as well as at least two posters.

Joe