What Do You Hate To See In A Cue?

[skins]

My post was about scrimshaw work on cues , not designs, I'm not sure if your story fits into the line of thought I was commenting on. I personally don't see a problem with what you do or your business relationship. BTW do you just write the code or do you have any other part in the construction of the cue, say cutting the pockets or the pieces? Inlaying them? Where does your role end?

Jim

my role with keith is as the designer and cnc code writer for Josey Custom Cues. keith is the true machinist and builder of the cues in his one man shop and is where the hard work of being a cuemaker is done. he makes everything, cuts the inlays and pockets, prepares the pieces for inlay and inlays the cues along with the tedious task of shaft making, butt construction, wraping and finnishing. he is the real cue maker.

 

[skins]

Bobby Hunter

also tim? did you do design work for bob hunter cues as well? or are his design just patterned after yours?

no. bobby does his own designs and joe gold uses some of his designs too. bobby is another one of those weird thinkers as it comes to cues and that's a good thing IMO.

 

[skins]

also i know cnc design takes time to do in software so to use an intricate cnc design once and discard it is not practical. but i also dont consider using the same program but swaping out woods and maybe deleting a small design element here and there as doing a one of a kind cue but more just a variation off the original one of a kind.

today i think one of a kind cues are exactly what they are. no two cues look ecactly the same. but in reality a cue that is truly one of a kind should say 1 of 1 somewhere on the cue, under the wrap or bumper and the cue never reproduced. the cue maker then has that on his mind beore making another one similar. but here is the problem. try to imagine someone wanting a cue made by G. Szamboti with four points w/veneers and ivory dimaonds in the points and ivory diamonds in the sleeve. this is what the customer wanted so is this to say since he designed it Gus wouldn't make a four point cue w/veneers with diamond inlays in it. no, these were the type of shapes that were used in customs then. any cue he makes with those shapes will remind the customer of the cue Gus made for him. will he be mad, probably not. i believe it's about giving the customer something they want and that no one else has wether it be different wood combos or a few more inlays. this is what i meant by short runs and not true one of a kinds and is why we keep our noses to the grind stone designing different looking cues so as to give the customer an opportunity to have a cue no one else has exactly. true one of a kinds in my type of cue mean the design itself once used is retired and never used by that cue maker again. those cues could cost big $$$$ and when the market bears it we do it. i'll design you something nice jeff. i'll let you know when we recieve the check.

 

[monski]

i apologize in advance if you do not mean me but if you understand one thing understand this- as far as josey custom cues is concerned his work is not outsourced. we are partners in cue building and we colaborate on every design that is done and we consider the cues we make to be of two sources acting as one towards the same goal, beauty meeting form meeting function. and as Gump said " that's all i'm goin to say about that".

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No not this situation. You being partners not minding to have additonal acknowledgement is entirely up to the party. If the artist has his own name --- no matter how small the brand is (outside of the cuemaker's shop) --- I think the guy should be cited. Sub-contracting is probably a better term... I'm not sure... But if a cue maker did not have an encoder and had a professional encoder make him one maybe the encoder deserves credit. Or maybe the cue maker should inform the people that the he does not do that part of the work.

 

[skins]

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No not this situation. You being partners not minding to have additonal acknowledgement is entirely up to the party. If the artist has his own name --- no matter how small the brand is (outside of the cuemaker's shop) --- I think the guy should be cited. Sub-contracting is probably a better term... I'm not sure... But if a cue maker did not have an encoder and had a professional encoder make him one maybe the encoder deserves credit. Or maybe the cue maker should inform the people that the he does not do that part of the work.

what about the people who used or use pantograph machines. most of thier designs have to be outsouced to a machinist who uses some sort of computer aided design program to make the templates so should this guy get credit for making the template for the cue? you can beat your head into the ground on this topic but let me leave you with this. look at your avatar. some would say they could be a great team, unless your not into that, if you know what i mean. that's what me and keith are, a great team, not in the same way , but with the same vision in cue making just not as good looking! look for sound construction, beauty, uniqueness and attention to detail and you can't go wrong. the fun part for all of us is taking the journey to find these.

 

[classiccues]

my opinion is it does make his cues less appealing. i like some of the classic looking bushka designs but think his cues are over priced partially due to the mention in the "color of money".
if tom cruise would have mentioned "szamboti" their values would be double bushka's.
we also certainly can't go by the values in the bluebook since they were determined by mark kulungian, one of the largest collectors of bushka's.

Many have tried the color of money arguement and those usually fail to realize that Balabushka was THE cue before the movie. One can only speculate a "what if". What if they mentioned Meucci, or Adams? Do you think they would have been worth more than a Szamboti or Bushka? Why DIDN'T they mention another cue? should be the question asked.
Mark owns less than 15 primo examples of Bushkas, his overall collection is large, but I don't think its the largest or even close. Your disapproval of the bluebook is your choice, but its better if you e-mail Brad. One last note, they weren't exclusively priced by Mark, he had alot of input, but they were agreed prices. If you think you have better proof, or have sold one or two or 10 in the past year, please submit your discrepancy to Brad at his e-mail address.

Joe

 

[icon]

Many have tried the color of money arguement and those usually fail to realize that Balabushka was THE cue before the movie.

your the first person that i've heard make that claim

One can only speculate a "what if". What if they mentioned Meucci, or Adams? Do you think they would have been worth more than a Szamboti or Bushka?

i guess you are not being serious

Why DIDN'T they mention another cue? should be the question asked.

i have no idea why they decided to mention balabushka! maybe they like the way it sounded? these days they would mention which ever maker or company paid for the mention.

Mark owns less than 15 primo examples of Bushkas, his overall collection is large, but I don't think its the largest or even close. Your disapproval of the bluebook is your choice, but its better if you e-mail Brad.

the bluebook is published! what good would emailing brad do?
you also exspressed displeasure with the bluebook! have you changed your mind? did you email brad?

One last note, they weren't exclusively priced by Mark, he had alot of input, but they were agreed prices. If you think you have better proof, or have sold one or two or 10 in the past year, please submit your discrepancy to Brad at his e-mail address.

again the bluebook is published! what good would emailing brad do?

Joe

the bluebook values on cues are not valid. you agreed with this before.

as far as bushka's go - obviously we do not share the same opinion.

 

[icon]

what about the people who used or use pantograph machines. most of thier designs have to be outsouced to a machinist who uses some sort of computer aided design program to make the templates so should this guy get credit for making the template for the cue? you can beat your head into the ground on this topic but let me leave you with this. look at your avatar. some would say they could be a great team, unless your not into that, if you know what i mean. that's what me and keith are, a great team, not in the same way , but with the same vision in cue making just not as good looking! look for sound construction, beauty, uniqueness and attention to detail and you can't go wrong. the fun part for all of us is taking the journey to find these.

tim! i respect your opinion and it is obviously your call in your situation. the only reason i bring up the point is if i were in mr josey's position and had you as a partner, personally i wouldn't feel right about not acknowledging your input on the design of the cues. this is obviously my opinion and from other peoples posts it is readily appearent that others do not feel the same way.
you do some GREAT design work!

jeff

 

[TATE]

i've read much of this forum and one thing is clear, everyone's tastes are different. i would like to address a few comments made herein regarding the use of floating points and the use of cnc machines. let me start off by saying i hate mass produced cues and i am a huge fan of the traditional prong and veneer cues. with that being said i believe that true custom cue making involves the processes of design and machining with the intent of producing cues that are one of a kind or very short runs, less than 10 perhaps, where no two are exactly alike. whether it be the same design with different wood combinations or maybe a few extra or less inlays.

I would like to say I hate to see a cue maker paint themselves into a corner by promising 1 of 1 and ending up with ridiculous looking wood combinations. I think DP has done this and he's produced some strange looking birds in the process. Too many 1 of 1 makes 1 of 1 less important to the customer. I mean, is anybody saying "gee, wow, you really have a DP 1 of 1?"

Chris

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

my opinion is it does make his cues less appealing. i like some of the classic looking bushka designs but think his cues are over priced partially due to the mention in the "color of money".
if tom cruise would have mentioned "szamboti" their values would be double bushka's.
we also certainly can't go by the values in the bluebook since they were determined by mark kulungian, one of the largest collectors of bushka's.

I totally agree with you Jeff. People are starting to get it about Balabushkas. I remember in 1990 I had $8,000 and wanted to buy a Balabushka early in my collecting days. I could not find one for sale for anything less than $12,000, and that wasn't even an original (it was refinished with non-original shafts). Today, 15 years later, there seem to be plenty of them on the market for little more money. I think as people realize how many fakes there are and that other cue makers made the points, that there is more available for their money in other cue makers. And you are right on regarding the mention in the movie. If one were to graph the prices and availability of Balabushkas that were sold since the movie, they would see a decline in price and an increase in availability. In all fairness, they were sought after cues before the movie...just not THAT sought after. If the name wasn't mentioned in the movie, entry level Bushkas would be worth $3000-$4000 (max) today in good original condition, IMO.

Deno

 

[monski]

what about the people who used or use pantograph machines. most of thier designs have to be outsouced to a machinist who uses some sort of computer aided design program to make the templates so should this guy get credit for making the template for the cue? you can beat your head into the ground on this topic but let me leave you with this. look at your avatar. some would say they could be a great team, unless your not into that, if you know what i mean. that's what me and keith are, a great team, not in the same way , but with the same vision in cue making just not as good looking! look for sound construction, beauty, uniqueness and attention to detail and you can't go wrong. the fun part for all of us is taking the journey to find these.

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Templates can be "generic" and not necessarily related to the cue design. What I am referring to is the "composition" of the cue and how the artwork or design blends into it. Your input in Kieth's cues are effectively and integral part of the design itself. On the other hand, templates can be used in the composition. However the template is not the "composition." If an artwork is absolutely critical to the overall concept and design, any outsourcing and/or sub-coontracting of such work deserves mention in my opinion.

 

[classiccues]

Icon: your the first person that i've heard make that claim

Well you would have needed to be around pool before the movie.

Icon: i guess you are not being serious

Dead serious…

Icon: i have no idea why they decided to mention balabushka! maybe they like the way it sounded? these days they would mention which ever maker or company paid for the mention.

Forget about these days.. we are talking about then. Again I ask, why didn’t they mention Rambow, Martin, Paradise ? I mean think about it.. Paradise would have been a better choice because you could really play off the meaning of the word "Paradise". He used a Rambow in the first movie, so why not just pass on "his" original cue?

Icon: the bluebook is published! what good would emailing brad do?
you also exspressed displeasure with the bluebook! have you changed your mind? did you email brad?

I e-mailed Brad before it was published. I expressed my concern over an invalid price and it was adjusted.

Icon: again the bluebook is published! what good would emailing brad do?

Maybe input like yours from a lot of people will get a change made??

Joe

 

[coastydad]

Don't be sorry to me, I also love old school designs, except I love them when they were done the first time, by the original guys. You want a Bushka style cue?? then go buy a Bushka, why have someone copy it?? You can't afford it?? That's a shame, then you shouldn't have it. I'd love a Lamborghini, but I can't afford it, I don't go out and buy a mustang and have someone fit it with a Lambo body, I just live with the fact that I can't afford what I like. Also there are guys now who have done that tuff or have reason to do that stuff. You want a Boti but can't find a Gus? Call Barry and get one. You want a Bushka style cue call Pete or have Black or Scruggs do it, at least these guys were from the area and have done those cues. These new garage hacks just offend me when they do it.

Jim

First, I would not ask a cuemaker to copy a design from a Bushka or Boti, but I would not hesitate to have a cuemaker build one with those type of designs. Think it has been pretty evident from my previous posts that my favorite cuemaker is Skip Weston, from New Jersey, pretty close to where Balabushka and Szamboti plied their trade. A lot closer than Richard Black by the way, although I do really like Richards work and have had the opportunity to visit his shop and play with his cues. I had a Szamboti many years ago and hit-wise I like my current Skips better. Also, actually think the workmanship is better in my Skip. Really don't believe that because someone likes the old school designs, pointed cues, notched diamonds etc. that they are ripping off someone elses ideas. I have great admiration for guys like Thomas Wayne, Perry Weston and Bill Stroud who are "pushing the envelope" of cue design, but, just wouldn't own one because personally I think they are too gaudy.

 

[coastydad]

Hey, since this is getting so nice, why don't you call Grassley up and invite him to the party.........

LOL...That's funny man!

 

[icon]

Icon: your the first person that i've heard make that claim

Well you would have needed to be around pool before the movie.

to hear a person make that claim? no! i don't think so!

Icon: i guess you are not being serious

Dead serious…

you're being serious about muecci or adams possibly being worth more than a bushka or szam becuase they were mentioned in the movie? surely you jest!

Icon: i have no idea why they decided to mention balabushka! maybe they like the way it sounded? these days they would mention which ever maker or company paid for the mention.

Forget about these days.. we are talking about then. Again I ask, why didn’t they mention Rambow, Martin, Paradise ? I mean think about it.. Paradise would have been a better choice because you could really play off the meaning of the word "Paradise". He used a Rambow in the first movie, so why not just pass on "his" original cue?

no! before you asked about muecci and adams! i don't think actors get to choose dialogue! the movies were directed by two different people 25 years apart. i answered the first time that i have no idea why they selected balabushka. did you not understand that? why are you asking me again? maybe martin scorsese shoots with one? if you know why - spit it out!

Icon: the bluebook is published! what good would emailing brad do?
you also exspressed displeasure with the bluebook! have you changed your mind? did you email brad?

I e-mailed Brad before it was published. I expressed my concern over an invalid price and it was adjusted.

and what would this have to do with pricing after published? if you had a concern why didnt you just tell mark since he had input? how did you have access to prepublished pricing? did mark share things he wasnt supposed to?

Icon: again the bluebook is published! what good would emailing brad do?

Maybe input like yours from a lot of people will get a change made??

as i stated before the values are not valid. any changes that were made would go in a second printing and by the time it hit the shelves they would no longer be valid as well. i don't think cue values have a place in a book that come out every 3 to 5 years.

Joe

jeff

you have got me curious as to why balabushka was used in the movie. maybe i'll give marty a call and see what he says? didnt they really use joss cues though? who was the tech adviser as far as billiard equipment? maybe they just asked mccready and he said "just say balabushka, some people think they're decent cues!"
whatever the reason is it i will still have the opinion that they are over priced and less appealing to me personally as a collector since he did not make his own blanks. maybe mark ought to dump his as quick as possible for whatever he can get!

 

[bruin70]

you have got me curious as to why balabushka was used in the movie. maybe i'll give marty a call and see what he says? didnt they really use joss cues though? who was the tech adviser as far as billiard equipment? maybe they just asked mccready and he said "just say balabushka, some people think they're decent cues!"

i just talked to marty yesterday about this very thing, noting that amongst other things, that he is a stickler for authenticity. he said, "i'll never trust pool scum again. i asked for a well known cue name with mystique, and they said "balabushka". when i had my people look for a balabushka, some scheming pool s**thead gave this joss to me and my researchers. i didn't know, nor did my researchers. i'll never trust anyone from the pool world again!!!!!"

i WAS going to do "the hustler part III" with joaquin phoenix, but decided to only BACK a movie about a pool playing chick. the women are more honest. i can shoot some nice bending over the table shots, and tons of nudie scenes.

 

[bruin70]

as i stated before the values are not valid. any changes that were made would go in a second printing and by the time it hit the shelves they would no longer be valid as well. i don't think cue values have a place in a book that come out every 3 to 5 years. !

it's to make money. simple as that.

the people who put out the book are merely academia who want to set themselves up as cue cognoscenti. this is ok since it at least is an effort to bring some sort of organization to the industry. their book is laced(at least with ONE cuemaker) with cursory info at best. and they(stein and rubino) have tried unsuccessfully to make anything resembling a playable cue.

placing current value on cues is bullsh*t because it's outdated by the time the book is published. also, the market is self correcting, and is REALLY for the simpleton who knows nothing about buying or selling cues.

 

[icon]

it's to make money. simple as that.

the people who put out the book are merely academia who want to set themselves up as cue cognoscenti. this is ok since it at least is an effort to bring some sort of organization to the industry. their book is laced(at least with ONE cuemaker) with cursory info at best. and they(stein and rubino) have tried unsuccessfully to make anything resembling a playable cue.

placing current value on cues is bullsh*t because it's outdated by the time the book is published. also, the market is self correcting, and is REALLY for the simpleton who knows nothing about buying or selling cues.

how's old marty doin? hadnt talked to him in weeks!
stein & rubino are the billiard encyclo dudes! brad simpson does the bluebook but stein & rubino gave him access to their research.
why did you bring up cognoscenti cues?

 

[bruin70]

how's old marty doin? hadnt talked to him in weeks!
stein & rubino are the billiard encyclo dudes! brad simpson does the bluebook but stein & rubino gave him access to their research.
why did you bring up cognoscenti cues?

marty says "hi", and says he's taking your advice about doing movies with more nudie scenes and pool cues. he wants to hang out at the hustler club again, but he said this time YOU pay for the lap dances.

 

[skins]

tim! i respect your opinion and it is obviously your call in your situation. the only reason i bring up the point is if i were in mr josey's position and had you as a partner, personally i wouldn't feel right about not acknowledging your input on the design of the cues. this is obviously my opinion and from other peoples posts it is readily appearent that others do not feel the same way.
you do some GREAT design work!

jeff

keith does offer the information about our partnership for anyone who is interested and now in publication via the blue book. personally i know he doesn't care that people know or don't know i do the design work. keith is a one man shop with allot on his plate and he makes cues to make a living and it's those kind of makers that i will always know that you're getting their best. i'm with him because i'm trying to help Josey Custom Cues do that that's all. thanks jeff, i really appreciate the good words about my work. someday i hope to see a piece of work from Josey Custom Cues in your collection.