What Do You Hate To See In A Cue?

[coastydad]

There are very few of us who have the balls to voice negative opinions here, you've done it as well as me, but sadly we are in the minority.

Jim

I guess that would be a true statement. It reminds me of a time when one of my early military supervisors did a "Cool Hand Luke" and told me "What we have here is a problem with authority". Then he called the cops on me! Guess he was right.

 

[JimBo]

Jim,

You didn't answer the question about what you've done to help Skip since you like him and his work so much. What....oh, that's right.....NOTHING.

Get a life and start commenting publically on things you actually know something about. You're being the typical Sunday afternoon quarterback....always criticizing the play calling without having ever got in there.

Sean

I like his work, I own one of his cues, that's how I support a cuemaker. When I buy a cue it means I like the cue or the cuemaker, it's not for profit for me. So I guess I can turn and ask what risk have you ever taken on him? Everything you've bought from him you did so to make a profit, in other words everything you've done *for him* was really for *YOU*. I haven't supported Skip to turn a profit unlike you. You are in the cue business, you have to buy cues, please stop trying to make us all think you're doing the cuemakers a favor, it's your Job to buy cues. I can't believe you are dumb enough not to realize this or maybe you are and you just think we are dumb. No matter how much you like Skip as a person you wouldn't buy any of his cues if you couldn't turn them for a profit. So once more I'll say button your shirt your heart is falling out. As far as Sunday afternoon QB goes anyone can do what you do, all you have to look at for proof is Bill G, so again please shut your mouth when you are trying to treat us all like morons.

Jim

 

[cueaddicts]

first off it's not Cog's `shard` it's my (tim lilek/ josey's) `shard`. the fact that "many people" would say that using a cnc is lazy just means the "many people" that say that are ignorant and don't know diddly about making cues. try to create and execute one of my designs without it. won't be done. listen i've been sucked into this black hole of ignorance for a long time now and untill i hear from the "many peolpe" who know what it takes to do this type of work and actually do it and still say it's lazy (which will never happen) my feet are planted firm!

Excuse my oversight....the Cog 'spire' point. There is no arguement that you have to do CNC to do something like that. To try to cut something so intraicate like that out manually using a pantograph and template would be mind boggling and probably drive one to madness. But that is the whole point of CNC, to 1) expand the limits of what can be done and 2) make it easier on the cuemaker.

It's not a black hole of ignorance, it's simply people's preference about what they're willing to put their bucks into. It's the old argument of more traditional methods (spliced points, butterflies, etc.) vs all the high tech inlaid stuff. It will never go away.

Sean

 

[JimBo]

first off it's not Cog's `shard` it's my (tim lilek/ josey's) `shard`. the fact that "many people" would say that using a cnc is lazy just means the "many people" that say that are ignorant and don't know diddly about making cues. try to create and execute one of my designs without it. won't be done. listen i've been sucked into this black hole of ignorance for a long time now and untill i hear from the "many peolpe" who know what it takes to do this type of work and actually do it and still say it's lazy (which will never happen) my feet are planted firm!

Tim, although I really appreciate your input as someone who actually does what it is *we* talk about I am sorry to drag you in to this, I should warn you. By warn you I mean that people don't get how hard it is to be original, they don't realize the hours it takes to make the design flow, to make it look like it goes, not just creating a butt design and then stretching it to fit the front or vice versa. The fact is the people who open their mouths here have no clue of the work that goes into it or how much time and effort it saves them to steal designs or just parts of designs that have already been created. these are the same people who don't want to pay the price that comes with the design work and just want to show a picture to a cue hack who will reproduce anything for a buck. When you steal a design it just adds to the profit since the hard design work has already been done. you are going to have to argue with ignorance that is only concerned with the bottom line and not ethics, some people will try anything to defend there behavior. Even when they hear it from someone involved they will look for new ways to explain why it's ok for them to steal. A big part of the reason many artist won't come here. Anyone who looks at your design and thinks it's easy and that the computer does it all just have no clue, and you don't have to like it to see the hard work IMO.

Jim

 

[icon]

It will never go away.

Sean

what is your avatar sean?
i'm not able to load an avatar!

i think it will go away eventually - but still a long ways off!

 

[skins]

I know I've said it before, but I would like to thank you for giving us feedback from someone who's opinion matters. I have given my opinion many times as well as some people who thought stealing designs was fine, but as I've said our opinions don't hold the same weight as someone who is actually being ripped off. Thanks for your first hand insight. Also may I ask if it had come to a law suite how do you feel you could have shown a cash number and what would you sue for. It has always been my understanding that most people who have been ripped off know they can win in a court case but they didn't feel they could recoup enough to make it worth while. Your case may have been different because it was a production company and you may be able to show how many cues they sold with your design, but could you charge them an hourly rate as to how long that design took you, or would it be a percentage as to sales of that cue? Did you speak to a lawyer?

Jim

i did speak to my brother who is a lawyer and was referred to a friend of his who does this type of case and he told me that i could pursue the matter but i would have to 1. show the design was mine (which was easy) and 2. prove they sold a cue with this design. the second is the one that matters most because unless i knew someone who bought the design or wanted to start court proceedings and subpoena records from falcon, which would have meant i would have had to hire on a pat tent/contract lawyer and start court proceedings to try and show the "damage" i sustained, i have to decide whether the infraction is worth it. in my case this was the first add i saw of this design in a mag and i called immediately and the owner said he would stop the add and that no cues were made except for the prototype and no more would be made. i told joe g. about it also and he checked and heard the same. from this info the threat of legal action was as far as i was willing to go. my advise is if you have knowledge of a theft of your designs check with a lawyer and weigh your options.

 

[classiccues]

I like his work, I own one of his cues, that's how I support a cuemaker. When I buy a cue it means I like the cue or the cuemaker, it's not for profit for me. So I guess I can turn and ask what risk have you ever taken on him? Everything you've bought from him you did so to make a profit, in other words everything you've done *for him* was really for *YOU*. I haven't supported Skip to turn a profit unlike you. You are in the cue business, you have to buy cues, please stop trying to make us all think you're doing the cuemakers a favor, it's your Job to buy cues. I can't believe you are dumb enough not to realize this or maybe you are and you just think we are dumb. No matter how much you like Skip as a person you wouldn't buy any of his cues if you couldn't turn them for a profit. So once more I'll say button your shirt your heart is falling out. As far as Sunday afternoon QB goes anyone can do what you do, all you have to look at for proof is Bill G, so again please shut your mouth when you are trying to treat us all like morons.

Jim

Maybe you should shut your mouth. Sean bought a Skip for himself BEFORE he was a cue dealer. Another fact goes by the way side.

Joe

 

[cueaddicts]

what is your avatar sean?
i'm not able to load an avatar!

i think it will go away eventually - but still a long ways off!

Joshua Tree National Monument....one of my favorite places.

And Tim, please don't get sucked into this further by Jimbo's cooing attempt to stroke your ego. Just look at his bio. He don't like people.....anyone.

 

[skins]

Tim, although I really appreciate your input as someone who actually does what it is *we* talk about I am sorry to drag you in to this, I should warn you. By warn you I mean that people don't get how hard it is to be original, they don't realize the hours it takes to make the design flow, to make it look like it goes, not just creating a butt design and then stretching it to fit the front or vice versa. The fact is the people who open their mouths here have no clue of the work that goes into it or how much time and effort it saves them to steal designs or just parts of designs that have already been created. these are the same people who don't want to pay the price that comes with the design work and just want to show a picture to a cue hack who will reproduce anything for a buck. When you steal a design it just adds to the profit since the hard design work has already been done. you are going to have to argue with ignorance that is only concerned with the bottom line and not ethics, some people will try anything to defend there behavior. Even when they hear it from someone involved they will look for new ways to explain why it's ok for them to steal. A big part of the reason many artist won't come here. Anyone who looks at your design and thinks it's easy and that the computer does it all just have no clue, and you don't have to like it to see the hard work IMO.

Jim

thanks for clarifying that for me. really!

 

[JimBo]

This is the post I expect when I call you out on facts.. again this is you and I. Come clean and admit you don't know as much as you think, especially about Skip, and I will stop coming after you. It seems like everytime a cuemakers gets hot, you want to sound like the National Enquirer and make everyone think you are in the know.. just stop lying and stick to what you do know. One other thing as expected, you get caught lying and then need to take a swing at Mark..

Joe

You are coming after me LOL

I wouldn't want you to stop that Joe, never

Jim <---LOL LOL LOL

PS I don't get the national enquirer remark, I think I bought the Skip cue 4 years ago, not sure when he got *HOT* LOL

 

[icon]

By warn you I mean that people don't get how hard it is to be original, they don't realize the hours it takes to make the design flow, to make it look like it goes, not just creating a butt design and then stretching it to fit the front or vice versa. The fact is the people who open their mouths here have no clue of the work that goes into it or how much time and effort it saves them to steal designs or just parts of designs that have already been created.

jim, i have experience with autocad software. i designed an office building and a house using autocad. i think i can appreciate the time and effort involved with one of tim's designs.

jeff

 

[cueaddicts]

Maybe you should shut your mouth. Sean bought a Skip for himself BEFORE he was a cue dealer. Another fact goes by the way side.

Joe

Yeah, Joe, this is very true. And I have bought a LOT of other cues directly from cuemakers without a discount. (One even on order now from one of his 'buddies'). But Jimbo keeps putting all of his eggs in one basket, just like he always does.....assumptions, assumptions, assumptions....and no facts.

But hey, you can't teach an old dog new tricks now can you?

 

[JimBo]

Joshua Tree National Monument....one of my favorite places.

And Tim, please don't get sucked into this further by Jimbo's cooing attempt to stroke your ego. Just look at his bio. He don't like people.....anyone.

Yeah Tim, please don't share any of your opinions with us, because as you can see most of us like to argue with each other and we don't need anyone who really knows what the hell he's talking about to get involved. Please stop talking since what you've said so far goes against what our forum experts (the cue dealers) seem to think should be the right way. These guys seem to think that because they sell cues they make all the rules and we should just bow down. Don't worry Sean if you place a large order you'll always be able to find a ccue maker willing to do anything for enough money. When they get big enough to go against your wishes you can always move on to another new guy who's dying for the business. It's sad when you want to shut someone up for giving his opinion just because it's not the same as yours.

Jim

 

[classiccues]

It's funny how in the next paragraph you mention Skip having his own style yet Joe in a previous post vehemently denies it

I'm happy for him too, I'm happy that maybe he can make money now instead of being held up by crooks like you guys who want to get cues at discounted prices to "help him" LOL. You cue brokers crack me up, your such nice guys, button your shirt your heart is falling out.

he isn't a part of Mark's lies and shady deals,

Jim

Where did I ever post Skip cues had NO style... I just stated the style and design were less than appealing

What is a broker supposed to do? Buy at full retail and sell for a loss? Do you buy caskets at full retail and give them away for funerals? Do you charge a customer what your make up people charge you to dress a body up? Do you just charge the morgue gas when you get a body? I am curious.. I guess your the only one entitled to make money in the world...

I will ask again.. elaborate please.

Joe

 

[cueaddicts]

jim, i have experience with autocad software. i designed an office building and a house using autocad. i think i can appreciate the time and effort involved with one of tim's designs.

jeff

Jeff, you are right. IMO, the development is where the overwhelming majority of the time and effort is. But after that's done, the prevalent perception out there is that it's just math....and of course getting your cue chucked up, indexed, the right end mill cutter, etc. Once the set-up is done, the 'manual work' stops and the machine takes over. When it's finished you have a perfect pocket for your fancy inlay.

We're not talking about fit and finish work, just the basics of manually cutting out inlays vs. cnc machine.

Tim, please clarify if this is wrong.......

 

[cueaddicts]

Yeah Tim, please don't share any of your opinions with us, because as you can see most of us like to argue with each other and we don't need anyone who really knows what the hell he's talking about to get involved......

Jim

No, can't speak for everyone but I certainly like exchange of ideas. And of course, the occasional argument with you is entertaining.

My last reply has aksed Tim to correct the "perception" that I haves stated is out there about CNC made cues. I think that I have a more robust understanding of cuemaking than some (having been around several shops), but I don't claim to know it all and welcome opinions.

 

[skins]

Jeff, you are right. IMO, the development is where the overwhelming majority of the time and effort is. But after that's done, the prevalent perception out there is that it's just math....and of course getting your cue chucked up, indexed, the right end mill cutter, etc. Once the set-up is done, the 'manual work' stops and the machine takes over. When it's finished you have a perfect pocket for your fancy inlay.

We're not talking about fit and finish work, just the basics of manually cutting out inlays vs. cnc machine.

Tim, please clarify if this is wrong.......

i can only comment on what we do and don't have the time to get into the specifics of inlaying and using cnc machines because there is allot more to it than you think to get it right but with that said some cuemakers spend tons of $ and time to make sure they can produce these "fancy inlays" and the end result is- the type of cue that the maker wants to produce. if you think it's any less work making these cues i invite you to go to keith's shop and watch him work, 7 days a week 10 to 12 hours a day, producing cues that play well and look good and then let me know "once the set-up work is done, and the manual work stops" what you observed.
then after observing all that work figure in the fact of the time he saved by me designing and still has to bust his butt to make these cues.

 

[merylane]

i can only comment on what we do and don't have the time to get into the specifics of inlaying and using cnc machines because there is allot more to it than you think to get it right but with that said some cuemakers spend tons of $ and time to make sure they can produce these "fancy inlays" and the end result is- the type of cue that the maker wants to produce. if you think it's any less work making these cues i invite you to go to keith's shop and watch him work, 7 days a week 10 to 12 hours a day, producing cues that play well and look good and then let me know "once the set-up work is done, and the manual work stops" what you observed.
then after observing all that work figure in the fact of the time he saved by me designing and still has to bust his butt to make these cues.

well i would like to see the same if he spent the same time without cnc.

im sure not only the output would be different but also the looks.

oh and PROFIT.

 

[Cornerman]

i welcome any information i didnt previously know!
but when you present it in a condescending manner with your usual "LOL!!!" to start it doesnt exactly put one in the mood to say "thanks"!

I start with "LOL!!!" because it was funny. If I was condescending, I'd start off with something else.

you also said that the choice would have been b/t balabushka and szamboti and possibly gina, in your opinion! now you are saying that "most serious collectors would have chosen balabushka above all others". so i guess your opinion wasnt with the majority?

jeff

I don't understand the attempt at wordsmithing and wasting time. What is it about the words that you feel are contradictory? Most serious collectors would have chosen Balabushka. If "most" and not "all" serious collectors would have chosen Balabushka, then what would the rest have chosen? Szamboti, Rambow, possibly Gina.... Do you really want to get into silly wordsmithing?

If I said "most serious fans would consider Michael Jordan as the greatest basketball player ever, although giving the nod to Magic Johnson or Larry Bird would have been acceptable," would you understand that as fair and understandable statement?

Fred

 

[merylane]

I start with "LOL!!!" because it was funny. If I was condescending, I'd start off with something else.


I don't understand the attempt at wordsmithing and wasting time. What is it about the words that you feel are contradictory? Most serious collectors would have chosen Balabushka. If "most" and not "all" serious collectors would have chosen Balabushka, then what would the rest have chosen? Szamboti, Rambow, possibly Gina.... Do you really want to get into silly wordsmithing?

If I said "most serious fans would consider Michael Jordan as the greatest basketball player ever, although giving the nod to Magic Johnson or Larry Bird would have been acceptable," would you understand that as fair and understandable statement?

Fred

i think he also has to remember this was 20 yrs ago.