What do you think makes a monster player?

I don't believe anyone said it thus far...

Natural Talent.

In my opinion, this dwarfs all other things to becoming a top player. There are many in the pool room who spend all day working hard on their game, and never get to the top ranks (even on a local level). Then, you have the players with natural talent, and things come easy to them.

What is natural talent? I'd have to say hand-eye coordination, muscle memory, fine motor control, ability to learn.
 
I don't believe anyone said it thus far...

Natural Talent.

In my opinion, this dwarfs all other things to becoming a top player. There are many in the pool room who spend all day working hard on their game, and never get to the top ranks (even on a local level). Then, you have the players with natural talent, and things come easy to them.

What is natural talent? I'd have to say hand-eye coordination, muscle memory, fine motor control, ability to learn.

Hate to say it but natural talent isn't the deciding factor at all. The research shows that hard work and deep practice coupled with opportunity and good coaching makes world class performers.

Although it's much more romantic to believe that some people are more "gifted" than others rarely is there actually a conclusive test that proves it. Most of the time when the people who are supposed to have more talent are researched it turns out that they in fact had more training and deeper training.

Desire seems to be a key factor though. Two people who get the same opportunities with one of them really having a burning desire to get better results most times in that one actually becoming the better performer.

Physical limitations excepted of course. Your 120lb guy is not going to become an NFL linebacker because he desires to.
 
I don't believe anyone said it thus far...

Natural Talent.

In my opinion, this dwarfs all other things to becoming a top player. There are many in the pool room who spend all day working hard on their game, and never get to the top ranks (even on a local level). Then, you have the players with natural talent, and things come easy to them.

What is natural talent? I'd have to say hand-eye coordination, muscle memory, fine motor control, ability to learn.

I couldnt have said it better myself. This is it period without it not gonna go very far.
 
Hate to say it but natural talent isn't the deciding factor at all. The research shows that hard work and deep practice coupled with opportunity and good coaching makes world class performers.

Although it's much more romantic to believe that some people are more "gifted" than others rarely is there actually a conclusive test that proves it. Most of the time when the people who are supposed to have more talent are researched it turns out that they in fact had more training and deeper training.

Desire seems to be a key factor though. Two people who get the same opportunities with one of them really having a burning desire to get better results most times in that one actually becoming the better performer.

Physical limitations excepted of course. Your 120lb guy is not going to become an NFL linebacker because he desires to.

Agreed and great post. I've seen a lot of people with natural talent in a variety of areas climb quicker than others, but their ego becomes big and weighs them down. The people with passion and the time to work surpass the naturally talented easily.

Combining the two though... that's deadly.
 
I don't believe anyone said it thus far...

Natural Talent.

In my opinion, this dwarfs all other things to becoming a top player. There are many in the pool room who spend all day working hard on their game, and never get to the top ranks (even on a local level). Then, you have the players with natural talent, and things come easy to them.

What is natural talent? I'd have to say hand-eye coordination, muscle memory, fine motor control, ability to learn.

Natural talent is a quick start...but there are many roads to Rome.
I knew a kid who was a world class snooker player at 18.
He was modest and polite but he said to me privately once.....
"Another guy just called me a natural.:angry:If he hit as many balls
as I have, he'd be a &*%$ natural too."

I knew another player, who as a teenager, would have needed serious
weight off the aforementioned player. But he had vision. He earned
everything he got the hard way...but he became a world champion.

You get what you're looking for.....
..and if you look for nothing, that's what you get.
 
That was John Barton, telling the tank driver to aim properly.

Yeah, okay....that sorta made my day...:rotflmao1:
I'd give you a greenie for that...but you'd probably think the Irish were
invading.

Looking forward to more sparring matches with you and JB.
..you both have a way of denigrating each other but making it
funny and somewhat civil...but JB has the word count.:)
 
Natural talent is a quick start...but there are many roads to Rome.
I knew a kid who was a world class snooker player at 18.
He was modest and polite but he said to me privately once.....
"Another guy just called me a natural.:angry:If he hit as many balls
as I have, he'd be a &*%$ natural too."

I knew another player, who as a teenager, would have needed serious
weight off the aforementioned player. But he had vision. He earned
everything he got the hard way...but he became a world champion.

You get what you're looking for.....
..and if you look for nothing, that's what you get.

So that's the nugget and one of any number of nobodies, then. I'd say many are borderline OCD.
 
Yeah, okay....that sorta made my day...:rotflmao1:
I'd give you a greenie for that...but you'd probably think the Irish were
invading.

Looking forward to more sparring matches with you and JB.
..you both have a way of denigrating each other but making it
funny and somewhat civil...but JB has the word count.:)

Been there, done that. I'm too neutered to get involved in a spot of fisticuffs, anyway. :(
 
I have read some very good answers here. JB summed it up pretty well.

I have been a longtime sports fan, and growing up I had a very serious idol: Jordan. I have never witnessed a competitor I thought was betther than MJ, in any sport. If you ask him what made him the best, he would say(I have a video where he says this) it was due to his extreme amounts of hardwork and practice, and his absolute desire to win. At everything. His competitive spirit is something to behold. His desire to always win pushed him to outwork all of his competitors.

I think raw talent is certainly a factor, but certainly not THE factor. Talent absolutely needs to be coupled with very hard work, and ultra competitiveness. Then, as Hu stated, fierce competition needs to also be available to bring out the fruits of one having the desire and talent. A superstar needs to be pushed in order to reach their true potential. Nicklaus and Watson, or even Palmer. Nadal and Federer. (Sorry Hu, just trying to give a few more examples on your excellent post.)

So, you need a very special set of circumstances to coalesce properly for a true MONSTER to develop. In my humble opinion.

Braden
 
So that's the nugget and one of any number of nobodies, then. I'd say many are borderline OCD.

No, not the Nugget....it was Cliff Thorburn.
Who became the greatest snooker player Canada ever produced.
 
No, not the Nugget....it was Cliff Thorburn.
Who became the greatest snooker player Canada ever produced.

He's still playing, isn't he? I sometimes play on the table he made the first Crucible maximum on - those pockets are absolutely brutal.
 
He's still playing, isn't he? I sometimes play on the table he made the first Crucible maximum on - those pockets are absolutely brutal.

He does some exhibitions and the Senior tour.
He's in big trouble with his eye sight....
..but if you leave him in close....
...the table looks like it was vacuumed.
 
Hate to say it but natural talent isn't the deciding factor at all. The research shows that hard work and deep practice coupled with opportunity and good coaching makes world class performers.

Although it's much more romantic to believe that some people are more "gifted" than others rarely is there actually a conclusive test that proves it. Most of the time when the people who are supposed to have more talent are researched it turns out that they in fact had more training and deeper training.

Desire seems to be a key factor though. Two people who get the same opportunities with one of them really having a burning desire to get better results most times in that one actually becoming the better performer.

Physical limitations excepted of course. Your 120lb guy is not going to become an NFL linebacker because he desires to.

This is the age old nature vs nurture discussion we are having in this thread. There is no conclusive test that proves its one over the other, as you have stated. There may be a research paper that you read that favors one over the other, but this debate will be going on forever...

The romantic part of it I actually see the opposite viewpoint that you do. I think its "romantic" for a person to tell themselves:

"I can be that good, if I just work at it by doing xyz. But I have other priorities in my life. We are all created equal".

The other side of it is: "I'm not as talented as that person, no matter how much I work at xyz, I will never make it to their level. We are not all created equal"

In my view, it is easier for a person to swallow the first quoted sentence, not the second. The second sentence makes the person feel inferior. Even in this thread, there was 2 pages of posts before someone mentioned talent. I feel its just a way for a player that never had or can have it, to justify to themselves that its not a lack of talent that is holding them back, but just a lack of practice/competition/desire/etc.

Lets look at two extremes of pool players: Thorston and McCready. Throston grew up with coaches, lessons, structured practice, tournament competing, etc. McCrready grew up gambling his brains out. He probably never head a lesson in his life, or a practice session. (I don't know this as fact). Thorston has a fundamentally perfect stroke and stance. McCready is all over the place with a goofy side arm stroke and stance.

But both players reached the top of the world status in their respective generations. tHey both went about it in completely opposite fashions. What was the one thing they both have in common? Natural talent is my answer.

Here's another example of pool players. Me vs Corey Deuel. We both are from the same room in Philadelphia. He was 5 years before me in that room, but the same players were still there for both of us, save Caras. We were both around super high level players. We both had access and participated in the same weekly tournaments, gambled with the same old retired guys in the afternoons, gambled with the same guys in the evenings. I know he put in tons of time, but so did I. I went a period of at least 5 years when a teenager of playing probably an average of 5 hrs a day. I had the desire. I used to write lists of the people I wanted to kill on the pool table, and the order I was going to do it in. He not only got to the top of the local scene, he got to the top of the world. I can't even beat the mid level locals. What separates us? Natural talent is my answer.


Lets look at sports where there is total and rigid structure, unlike pool: Olympic gymnastics. Now, I'm not an expert by any means, and all I know about the Olympics is what I see on tv every 4 years.

But in that world, children from every country in the world that compete in the Olympics are plucked from their parents home every morning at like 4am to go to the gymnasium, then they go to school, then they go to the gymnasium again, then they go home back to parents for dinner, homework, and sleep. This continues from the time they are 5, till they are 15. These kids all have rigid and structured practice sessions, coaches, local, regional, and national competition. Yet, they don't all make it to the Olympics. Hell, even on the local level, there are probably kids that suck, and kids that are great. Probably only a tiny percentage make it to the national level, and then the Olympics. Why is that? They were all afforded ALL the oppurtunities mentioned in this thread with regard to becoming a world beater in pool. My opinion is some people just have it, and some don't. The "it" is talent.

Good discussion going here.
 
I've heard the term 'natural' used often as a cop out.
If you say you don't 'have it'.....
..it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
 
Talent is merely a word used by unsuccessful people as an excuse for why they are failures.
 
He does some exhibitions and the Senior tour.
He's in big trouble with his eye sight....
..but if you leave him in close....
...the table looks like it was vacuumed.

Is that because it's taken him so long to take the shot, the cleaner's been in?

:o
 
Why? Do you have a problem with me thanking people for their...

Talent inspired belief.

ps LnL - is it necessary to thank everyone for their posts?

Posting in my thread and taking their time to do so? If so, Why? I appreciate people's input into my thread!! You tell me what is wrong with me thanking someone for something? Their time is worth me thanking them!! I noticed you are the only one saying something about me thanking people!!!! Thanking people and saying you are welcome is an act of appreciation! Perhaps I am wrong?
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
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