What happened to Tom Storm???
- Thread starter Wags
- Start date
Phenolic tip. Look at the ipt website or the post here.
Not that cut and dried!
We've been discussing the phenolic tip/IPT issue since the Vegas tournament over on Pro9 and it's all very confusing. Here's what was posted on the forum by one member after he'd contacted the IPT in regards to this rule before playing in a qualifier:
'I believe the rule is if there is ANY leather in the cue tip then it is considered legal. I checked this as I have a BK2 which has a carbon-fibre/leather composite tip, and would be allowed on the IPT'.
and yet apparently yesterday Tom Storm was disqualified for using a BK2!
'(Deno) Andrews left with the shaft and returned a short time later with a spec sheet for the Predator BK2, which notes that the standard tip is phenolic and carbon fiber'.
In the last tournament David Alcaide and others were just docked games for using a phenolic tip whereas in Reno it was instant disqualification. I know the rule was discussed at the Reno player's meeting apparently but it still seems weird to change the punishment so drastically.
With the IPT seemingly not being entirely clear on the phenolic issue (your tip can have some phenolic content as long as it has a certain amount of leather too) it's not really surprising that mistakes are being made.
Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
Gabber said:
We've been discussing the phenolic tip/IPT issue since the Vegas tournament over on Pro9 and it's all very confusing. Here's what was posted on the forum by one member after he'd contacted the IPT in regards to this rule before playing in a qualifier:
'I believe the rule is if there is ANY leather in the cue tip then it is considered legal. I checked this as I have a BK2 which has a carbon-fibre/leather composite tip, and would be allowed on the IPT'.
and yet apparently yesterday Tom Storm was disqualified for using a BK2!
'(Deno) Andrews left with the shaft and returned a short time later with a spec sheet for the Predator BK2, which notes that the standard tip is phenolic and carbon fiber'.
In the last tournament David Alcaide and others were just docked games for using a phenolic tip whereas in Reno it was instant disqualification. I know the rule was discussed at the Reno player's meeting apparently but it still seems weird to change the punishment so drastically.
With the IPT seemingly not being entirely clear on the phenolic issue (your tip can have some phenolic content as long as it has a certain amount of leather too) it's not really surprising that mistakes are being made.
Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
No phenolics is a stupid rule.
Just as no jump cues, and garbage cloth is too. So is winning with an 8 on the break. Shouldn't be able to win or lose by luck. Wasn't the goal to eliminate "luck" factor? Why bother with call shot then?
Oops, didn't mean to go off topic. With new break cues, and new tip materials and innovations like all these hybrids...it will just add confusion.
Sorry, but Ed Kelley armed with a super-duper X-breaker BK3 delux is never going to outbreak Marlon Manalo. The difference these cues make are insignificant to the outcome of professional pool. It isn't the decisive win/loss factor. If a break cue added 10mph to a break - I'd say yeah, they do make a difference. But, when Bustamante smashes them at 26mph - he does come up dry sometimes. It is pointless really.
I do draw the line on equipment or tips that damage the cue ball. If a tip is so hard or of a material that scuffs or scratches the luster of the cue-ball - no good. Chalk on your tip is constantly eroding the cueball, but that is very gradual and light to where it is undetectable without powerful magnification. I'm refering to something more severe.
Just as no jump cues, and garbage cloth is too. So is winning with an 8 on the break. Shouldn't be able to win or lose by luck. Wasn't the goal to eliminate "luck" factor? Why bother with call shot then?
Oops, didn't mean to go off topic. With new break cues, and new tip materials and innovations like all these hybrids...it will just add confusion.
Sorry, but Ed Kelley armed with a super-duper X-breaker BK3 delux is never going to outbreak Marlon Manalo. The difference these cues make are insignificant to the outcome of professional pool. It isn't the decisive win/loss factor. If a break cue added 10mph to a break - I'd say yeah, they do make a difference. But, when Bustamante smashes them at 26mph - he does come up dry sometimes. It is pointless really.
I do draw the line on equipment or tips that damage the cue ball. If a tip is so hard or of a material that scuffs or scratches the luster of the cue-ball - no good. Chalk on your tip is constantly eroding the cueball, but that is very gradual and light to where it is undetectable without powerful magnification. I'm refering to something more severe.
First the IPT rules say you must have a "leather cue tip". Very clear. Nothing about phenolic content or any other confusing issues in the rule.
Secondly, the BK2 spec sheet states that the tip is phenolic and carbon fiber. No mention of leather. In fact the tip is phenolic with a carbon fiber pad between the tip and the ferrule.
I cannot believe that if this issue was raised in the players meeting and the penalty explained that anybody would be foolish enough to play with a cue where they were not absolutely sure that it was legal.
Ignorance of the rules or your equipment is exactly that. Ignorance.
If you don't like the rule and want to get it changed, that's one thing, but ignoring a standing rule and penalty is another matter. I don't like all the rules in some games, but I can't just ignore them.
Secondly, the BK2 spec sheet states that the tip is phenolic and carbon fiber. No mention of leather. In fact the tip is phenolic with a carbon fiber pad between the tip and the ferrule.
I cannot believe that if this issue was raised in the players meeting and the penalty explained that anybody would be foolish enough to play with a cue where they were not absolutely sure that it was legal.
Ignorance of the rules or your equipment is exactly that. Ignorance.
If you don't like the rule and want to get it changed, that's one thing, but ignoring a standing rule and penalty is another matter. I don't like all the rules in some games, but I can't just ignore them.
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No phenolics is a stupid rule.
Just as no jump cues, and garbage cloth is too. So is winning with an 8 on the break. Shouldn't be able to win or lose by luck. Wasn't the goal to eliminate "luck" factor? Why bother with call shot then?
Oops, didn't mean to go off topic. With new break cues, and new tip materials and innovations like all these hybrids...it will just add confusion.
Sorry, but Ed Kelley armed with a super-duper X-breaker BK3 delux is never going to outbreak Marlon Manalo. The difference these cues make are insignificant to the outcome of professional pool. It isn't the decisive win/loss factor. If a break cue added 10mph to a break - I'd say yeah, they do make a difference. But, when Bustamante smashes them at 26mph - he does come up dry sometimes. It is pointless really.
I do draw the line on equipment or tips that damage the cue ball. If a tip is so hard or of a material that scuffs or scratches the luster of the cue-ball - no good. Chalk on your tip is constantly eroding the cueball, but that is very gradual and light to where it is undetectable without powerful magnification. I'm refering to something more severe.
In any event, these rules were thought of by someone who thought they could level the playing field - think again.
When will people learn that equipment is not equal to skill?
Just as no jump cues, and garbage cloth is too. So is winning with an 8 on the break. Shouldn't be able to win or lose by luck. Wasn't the goal to eliminate "luck" factor? Why bother with call shot then?
Oops, didn't mean to go off topic. With new break cues, and new tip materials and innovations like all these hybrids...it will just add confusion.
Sorry, but Ed Kelley armed with a super-duper X-breaker BK3 delux is never going to outbreak Marlon Manalo. The difference these cues make are insignificant to the outcome of professional pool. It isn't the decisive win/loss factor. If a break cue added 10mph to a break - I'd say yeah, they do make a difference. But, when Bustamante smashes them at 26mph - he does come up dry sometimes. It is pointless really.
I do draw the line on equipment or tips that damage the cue ball. If a tip is so hard or of a material that scuffs or scratches the luster of the cue-ball - no good. Chalk on your tip is constantly eroding the cueball, but that is very gradual and light to where it is undetectable without powerful magnification. I'm refering to something more severe.
In any event, these rules were thought of by someone who thought they could level the playing field - think again.
When will people learn that equipment is not equal to skill?
I do find
that many websites that advertise 'Break cues' are rather ambiguious when it comes to telling what the tip on it is, either that or they just describe it
in 'General terms'. I believe there are 3-4 types of Phenolic tips, but do you ever see the specific type of phenolic tip mentioned? Even if it is a leather tip, most will not directly specify what brand and type of leather tip it is on it.
And the Xbreaker that has a patented tip on it, you will never know the contents of it. BTW, is the X-Breaker prohibited in the IPT? And if so,
how can they decide to ban it if they don't know what makes up the tip?
that many websites that advertise 'Break cues' are rather ambiguious when it comes to telling what the tip on it is, either that or they just describe it
in 'General terms'. I believe there are 3-4 types of Phenolic tips, but do you ever see the specific type of phenolic tip mentioned? Even if it is a leather tip, most will not directly specify what brand and type of leather tip it is on it.
And the Xbreaker that has a patented tip on it, you will never know the contents of it. BTW, is the X-Breaker prohibited in the IPT? And if so,
how can they decide to ban it if they don't know what makes up the tip?
GADawg said:
Well you're right that the the IPT rules say the tip must be leather. However it was confirmed before that this only applies to the part of the tip that actually strikes the cue ball. Therefore you could have full phenolic ferrule and a tiny thin leather tip and that would still be theoretically legal. Don't you remember the thread started here by Xtreme Billiards seeking clarification of the phenolic rule before the KOTH event? The IPT made it clear then that people were taking the rule too literally.
As for the ignorance comment there are a lot of great players who aren't necessarily interested in the specifics of the equipment they're using as long as it does the trick (again remember some of the answers in the cues used thread- some players knew all the details of the cues they were using others just knew the makes and that was it). They might have started using a new break cue with a different tip without knowing exactly what the tip was made from. If it works, why ask what it is? Especially for those players who use Predator equipment (the number 1 most used brand on the IPT remember) it must have come as a big surprise that their break cues weren't legal and I bet others were used yesterday without referees spotting them.
We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.
Chris (Chrstc).
Cheaters never win.......
McCue Banger McCue
McCue Banger McCue
Aren't the players supposed to know what kind equipment they are using? What it is made of? Besides, players love their cue, they always look at the tip, caress it, kiss it. They should know what they are kissing, right?
chrstc said:
Chris -
You are correct. If I were playing there (Lord knows I wish I was good enough), I would have gotten a break shaft with a phenolic ferrule and the thinnest, hardest leather tip I could get and then verified that it was legal before I used it. I don't know, but I would guess that many players, who read and understood the rules, did this.
I'm sure there are some players who don't know the specifics of their equipment, but that's not a legitimate excuse. The smart players read and understand the rules and use them to their best advantage. I saw a game in the Shanghai qualifier where a player lost on three fouls and he didn't know that there was three foul rule in IPT.
Again, if I was in the players meeting and they stated that if you had a phenolic tip, you would be disqualified ,and I had a cue and I wasn't absolutely sure about the tip, I would damn sure find out before I used it. No assumptions.
Hello GADawg,
I do definitely take your point and, although Tom is one of my favourite players, I don't know him personally so I can't claim to know how or why he made this mistake. If it is true that he was using a BK2, though, I think a lot of people might assume that as the BK1 had a leather tip then the BK2 would have too. There is an online pool shop here in the UK that describes Predator as "the leading manufacturer of non-phenolic break cues" for example. Again, just mentioning that to show how this mistake may be widespread. You'd certainly expect those selling break cues to know about the tips!
Yes in the end I suppose the players should all have gone through the rules incredibly carefully and had all these things checked out but it does seem unfair that you could have a leather tip on a phenolic ferrule- how much difference is that leather really going to make. Tom's cue was checked during the first round of matches and therefore I really don't think he can have gained that much of an advantage at that stage. I think a 5 game penalty as Alcaide received in Vegas or even loss of match would have been sufficient.
Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
I do definitely take your point and, although Tom is one of my favourite players, I don't know him personally so I can't claim to know how or why he made this mistake. If it is true that he was using a BK2, though, I think a lot of people might assume that as the BK1 had a leather tip then the BK2 would have too. There is an online pool shop here in the UK that describes Predator as "the leading manufacturer of non-phenolic break cues" for example. Again, just mentioning that to show how this mistake may be widespread. You'd certainly expect those selling break cues to know about the tips!
Yes in the end I suppose the players should all have gone through the rules incredibly carefully and had all these things checked out but it does seem unfair that you could have a leather tip on a phenolic ferrule- how much difference is that leather really going to make. Tom's cue was checked during the first round of matches and therefore I really don't think he can have gained that much of an advantage at that stage. I think a 5 game penalty as Alcaide received in Vegas or even loss of match would have been sufficient.
Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
Chris -
You are right again about the Predator and the tip change from BK1 to BK2and possible resulting confusion. However, the player is still responsible for his own equipment meeting the rules and if I were ever playing in a $500,000 prize tournament, I would know for sure.
Suppose a pro golfer bought some illegal "hot" balls at the pro shop and then played in a tournament with them and got caught. His excuse of "I didn't know" would fall on deaf ears and he would be gone.
As far as the penalty goes, it is severe, but I think it has to be so that people won't just " take a chance" and see if they get caught. Suppose somebody got all the way to the third or fourth round and then this was discovered. All the players he defeated before would raise hell and you would have a terrible mess. It is not a good situation but I can understand making it a "capital crime" so that people are careful not to do it. I can almost guarantee that if another player was using a phenolic tip before, he isn't now.
I've said enough about this subject.
You are right again about the Predator and the tip change from BK1 to BK2and possible resulting confusion. However, the player is still responsible for his own equipment meeting the rules and if I were ever playing in a $500,000 prize tournament, I would know for sure.
Suppose a pro golfer bought some illegal "hot" balls at the pro shop and then played in a tournament with them and got caught. His excuse of "I didn't know" would fall on deaf ears and he would be gone.
As far as the penalty goes, it is severe, but I think it has to be so that people won't just " take a chance" and see if they get caught. Suppose somebody got all the way to the third or fourth round and then this was discovered. All the players he defeated before would raise hell and you would have a terrible mess. It is not a good situation but I can understand making it a "capital crime" so that people are careful not to do it. I can almost guarantee that if another player was using a phenolic tip before, he isn't now.
I've said enough about this subject.
"No phenolics is a stupid rule.
Just as no jump cues, and garbage cloth is too. So is winning with an 8 on the break. Shouldn't be able to win or lose by luck. Wasn't the goal to eliminate "luck" factor? Why bother with call shot then?"
I think you're missing the point. The rationale is that jump cues, fast cloth, and non-leather tips aid the weaker players.
As far as the 8 on the break, when it's only falling 1 out of every 1000 games it really makes no difference.
Just as no jump cues, and garbage cloth is too. So is winning with an 8 on the break. Shouldn't be able to win or lose by luck. Wasn't the goal to eliminate "luck" factor? Why bother with call shot then?"
I think you're missing the point. The rationale is that jump cues, fast cloth, and non-leather tips aid the weaker players.
As far as the 8 on the break, when it's only falling 1 out of every 1000 games it really makes no difference.
He didn't know about the tip like Sammy Sosa didn't know he was hitting with a corked bat......
I know what I'm shooting with, and I'm just a banger. Ignorance is no excuse. Where I live you violate the rules like that it's called cheating....Just like not calling your own foul is cheating.
McCue Banger McCue
I know what I'm shooting with, and I'm just a banger. Ignorance is no excuse. Where I live you violate the rules like that it's called cheating....Just like not calling your own foul is cheating.
McCue Banger McCue
I think if every table has a ref, that should be part of their job to check the equipment before a game starts. The player should know what they are playing with, but, but some just don't. I feel bad for those who were expelled, I am surprised it was only two, and I hope there isn't anymore.
I also hope they do get the $5000.00
I also hope they do get the $5000.00