After seeing that, I know why Meucci shafts in general suck..
What is a "Center Cut" Shaft?
- Thread starter GBCues
- Start date
After seeing that, I know why Meucci shafts in general suck..
I didn't copy and paste. I just hit the quote button, and that's how It came out. Regardless of who said what, My statement has been My observation, and yes as I mentioned I do not consider It the norm, I still follow popular belief for the most part, just saying I have seen exceptions to the rule. The playing shaft I have in My personal arsenal... I would never to sell to a customer. It is terrible looking even to the lowest standards, but It's stiff and plays lights out. very very low RPI on that shaft yet It still defies the odds.
Ok kiddies, class is now in session.
One would assume that if someone is a cue maker, he would have quality tight grained boards to show us from his inventory and he would certainly pick the best for that representation. Anyway...
I don't know who posted these pics but someone just sent them to me for my opinion about these quality boards (shown on AZ). I was done with this thread but see that further clarification is most certainly necessary.
I took the liberty of posting the pic here for all to see what some consider quality tight grained -vs- looser grained boards/shafts. First of all, I would like everyone to look at the picture below and study the left board. Look at the lower left corner of that boards and do you see the grain running upwards and off the board all within about 4 inches or so?
The grain to the right from where it runs off the board is in a slight "S" curve; left, then sways to the right and back to the left again; not exactly what I would call straight. This is hardly a tight grained board much less one I would want to use in any shaft other than perhaps a house cue. This lumber is hand selected for quality cues from what I've been lead to believe.
Remember the story I told about the guy wanting to go into lumber country and select his own wood, yada, yada, yada - well, this is the result. And, my friends this is common when people select their own wood. They're clueless because they haven't seen thousands of boards and tens of thousands of shafts. This is why there is so much discrepancy in shaft wood grading and quality. People don't know because they haven't seen large quantities of wood to know what to expect in a real quality board or shaft. Additionally they cannot get the quantity required to hand select the real gem boards/shafts and so they're left with what they think are quality boards to the best of their ability and limited knowledge. I would not have purchased these boards. The left board is useless while the right may yield 50%.
Now, let's focus on the board to the right which is from the same persons vast board/shaft wood inventory. Do you see the right hand grain where it's all wavy and off the board which accounts for 50% of the face grain. If you look at this board, the left hand side is tight where the right hand side of the same board is loose. The right side is scrap and the left side may be acceptable but there is 50% waste. I would like to have seen the opposite faces of both boards.
These two gems are pictured below for your viewing pleasure:
Now the following picture represents two shafts pulled from our inventory and no I didn't spend more than 38 seconds pulling them. We have the tight ones sorted out.
The left shaft is straight extremely tight grained maple while the right shaft is just a nice straight grained shaft which is acceptable to most. They don't need verbage and the picture is self explanatory. Do these compare to the photo above? Case closed. :thumbup:
Conclusion: this is why many of you start believing stuff that is simply not true. People who post this stuff don't know quality shaft wood and don't know what to look for nor what constitutes quality shaft wood if they believe the top pics represent anything other than low grade lumber. And we haven't even touched on how that lumber was dried. Most probably for maple lumber and not dired with care for quality shaft wood. There is a vast difference. Oh and BTW, that left hand shaft is killer but few have the ability to purchase them much less the funds so looser grain to them is always better. Ask any top tier cue make which they would prefer to use on their cues if price were the same or money was no object: the one on the left or the one on the right. Most all would select the one on the left. Why is that? :thumbup:
Have a nice evening as I am out of here.
One would assume that if someone is a cue maker, he would have quality tight grained boards to show us from his inventory and he would certainly pick the best for that representation. Anyway...
I don't know who posted these pics but someone just sent them to me for my opinion about these quality boards (shown on AZ). I was done with this thread but see that further clarification is most certainly necessary.
I took the liberty of posting the pic here for all to see what some consider quality tight grained -vs- looser grained boards/shafts. First of all, I would like everyone to look at the picture below and study the left board. Look at the lower left corner of that boards and do you see the grain running upwards and off the board all within about 4 inches or so?
The grain to the right from where it runs off the board is in a slight "S" curve; left, then sways to the right and back to the left again; not exactly what I would call straight. This is hardly a tight grained board much less one I would want to use in any shaft other than perhaps a house cue. This lumber is hand selected for quality cues from what I've been lead to believe.Remember the story I told about the guy wanting to go into lumber country and select his own wood, yada, yada, yada - well, this is the result. And, my friends this is common when people select their own wood. They're clueless because they haven't seen thousands of boards and tens of thousands of shafts. This is why there is so much discrepancy in shaft wood grading and quality. People don't know because they haven't seen large quantities of wood to know what to expect in a real quality board or shaft. Additionally they cannot get the quantity required to hand select the real gem boards/shafts and so they're left with what they think are quality boards to the best of their ability and limited knowledge. I would not have purchased these boards. The left board is useless while the right may yield 50%.
Now, let's focus on the board to the right which is from the same persons vast board/shaft wood inventory. Do you see the right hand grain where it's all wavy and off the board which accounts for 50% of the face grain. If you look at this board, the left hand side is tight where the right hand side of the same board is loose.
The right side is scrap and the left side may be acceptable but there is 50% waste. I would like to have seen the opposite faces of both boards.These two gems are pictured below for your viewing pleasure:
Now the following picture represents two shafts pulled from our inventory and no I didn't spend more than 38 seconds pulling them. We have the tight ones sorted out.
The left shaft is straight extremely tight grained maple while the right shaft is just a nice straight grained shaft which is acceptable to most. They don't need verbage and the picture is self explanatory. Do these compare to the photo above? Case closed. :thumbup:
Conclusion: this is why many of you start believing stuff that is simply not true. People who post this stuff don't know quality shaft wood and don't know what to look for nor what constitutes quality shaft wood if they believe the top pics represent anything other than low grade lumber. And we haven't even touched on how that lumber was dried. Most probably for maple lumber and not dired with care for quality shaft wood. There is a vast difference. Oh and BTW, that left hand shaft is killer but few have the ability to purchase them much less the funds so looser grain to them is always better. Ask any top tier cue make which they would prefer to use on their cues if price were the same or money was no object: the one on the left or the one on the right. Most all would select the one on the left. Why is that? :thumbup:
Have a nice evening as I am out of here.
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Fyi only, not my boards .
And those boards were already heavily discussed here before.
What is obvious and noticeable was already noticed without the long AA-meeting sermons.
The owner of the boards scrapped that section.
I like sanded dowels.
Going to the local lumberyard and picking boards that were not meant to be turned rounds is of no value to me.
First, they're almost all the time too long. You will have to cut them in right lengths.
Grain flyers and banana grains are common.
They didn't exactly cut those boards thinking you want grains to run straight for 30 inches.
No offense to those who go to the local lumberyard to pick their boards.
I just don't see the value to doing it.
I don't even know if you can go there and weigh them.
I don't think they cut those boards with these standards:
~Not looking forward to being misquoted~
There ya go.
And those boards were already heavily discussed here before.
What is obvious and noticeable was already noticed without the long AA-meeting sermons.
The owner of the boards scrapped that section.
I like sanded dowels.
Going to the local lumberyard and picking boards that were not meant to be turned rounds is of no value to me.
First, they're almost all the time too long. You will have to cut them in right lengths.
Grain flyers and banana grains are common.
They didn't exactly cut those boards thinking you want grains to run straight for 30 inches.
No offense to those who go to the local lumberyard to pick their boards.
I just don't see the value to doing it.
I don't even know if you can go there and weigh them.
I don't think they cut those boards with these standards:
~Not looking forward to being misquoted~
There ya go.
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duplicate..
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I also use dowels, and from there they still get culled if they do not meet the criteria. Nothing I mentioned had anything to do with straightness of grain. To Me that is just a given among most folks, and more important then the actual grain count itself. I do cull a fair amount of shafts for falling too short in that area though.
I don't bother with maple boards myself.
Give me sanded maple dowels.
Boards don't show turds, holes, knots and defects all the time.
Easier to see them on sanded dowels.
They cost a lot more than boards but they are more cost effective in the long run.
I won't buy " AAA " maple boards with nasty saw cuts either,
PLENTY!
I'll even hook you up with tight grained sanded dowels.
You already know they are hot among Asian tournament players here.
No need to cut boards and dowel them.
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Gee, I didn't realize that someone may have an inferiority complex because I never mentioned they were his or actually, I never mentioned that they were anyone's boards. Perhaps a guilty conscience? I don't know if those boards were ever discussed here because I don't have 13,000 posts and my life isn't and doesn't revolve around hanging out, every moment on AZB. Those boards were originally used to make a point about tight grain, etc with whomever originally posted them. Perhaps I'm mistaken and it was a baby Kangaroo.
Bottom-line - Those boards were disgusting and should have never been used as an example except for what you don't want in a board. Maybe I'm all wrong and mistaken so I'll move on...
I'm new to this sanded dowels theory. Maybe the "expert" here can enlighten me. I remember speaking with a top tier cue maker years ago, about a round pole sanding machine for finishing shafts. He said that the sanding causes way too much stress and the dowels to warp due to the excessive heat that is generated when sanding them. It causes the dowels to artificially dry out too fast from all the heat. Seemed logical to me so I scrapped the idea. He also stated that it was yesteryear's technology.
Why do people need sanded dowels? You can see the grain on a regular dowel. Why would you want to stress out the wood any further for no apparent reason which doesn't further the tapering process but is merely for ease of grading? I don't get it.
But I did stay at a Holiday Inn, once. (and never again!)
I hope everyone has a real super Memorial Day weekend and remember, Support Our Vets!
http://www.independencefund.org/
Bottom-line - Those boards were disgusting and should have never been used as an example except for what you don't want in a board. Maybe I'm all wrong and mistaken so I'll move on...
I'm new to this sanded dowels theory. Maybe the "expert" here can enlighten me. I remember speaking with a top tier cue maker years ago, about a round pole sanding machine for finishing shafts. He said that the sanding causes way too much stress and the dowels to warp due to the excessive heat that is generated when sanding them. It causes the dowels to artificially dry out too fast from all the heat. Seemed logical to me so I scrapped the idea. He also stated that it was yesteryear's technology.
Why do people need sanded dowels? You can see the grain on a regular dowel. Why would you want to stress out the wood any further for no apparent reason which doesn't further the tapering process but is merely for ease of grading? I don't get it.
But I did stay at a Holiday Inn, once. (and never again!)
I hope everyone has a real super Memorial Day weekend and remember, Support Our Vets!
http://www.independencefund.org/
It's a lovely story but I prefer sanded dowels.
I don't know about pole sanding shafts to finish size.
But, it's a touching story.
Taper machine and elbow grease do iit for all makers I know .
I was talking to a butterfly cue master, he said those
Piranha teeth monsters that turn squares to rounds stress the wood
too much. Not my opinion; his.
Champeau is still sanding dowels by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.
They must be clueless .
I don't know about pole sanding shafts to finish size.
But, it's a touching story.
Taper machine and elbow grease do iit for all makers I know .
I was talking to a butterfly cue master, he said those
Piranha teeth monsters that turn squares to rounds stress the wood
too much. Not my opinion; his.
Champeau is still sanding dowels by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.
They must be clueless .
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I believe it's called a round pole sanding machine and there are some cue makers who use them to finish shafts. It does create a lot of heat and does in fact dry out the wood. However it's working for them so God bless. It's not for us and how we do things.
I don't know why anyone would think a doweling machine is anymore stressful than turning a shaft on a lathe. Hmmm, let's see....
Turning wood on lathe:
1) put wood in lathe
2) turn lathe on (shaft now spinning)
3) turn router on (blade spinning
4) introduce wood to blade (hello blade)
5) run blade up and down shaft
6) shaft is now round
Turn wood with doweling machine:
1) turn doweler on
2) turn feed wheels on
3) insert shaft into feed wheels
4) shaft is automatically introduced to blades and run through automatically
5) shaft is now round
If you're making 10 cues a year or 110 cues a year, you can stand by a lathe and cut shafts one at a time. I remember it taking roughly 8 hours to round 100 shafts with a lathe. We can now do that in 15 minutes. When you are a large cue manufacturer or supplier, it doesn't make sense and so they use doweling machines or purchase dowels. You have to turn shafts round and a doweling machine is the most efficient method. They don't burn the shafts nor heat them up as sanding machines do. Sanding is friction; friction is heat.
And Champeau also sands dowels for broom handles too. They are major broom handle suppliers.
Enjoy your Memorial Day Weekend.
I don't know why anyone would think a doweling machine is anymore stressful than turning a shaft on a lathe. Hmmm, let's see....
Turning wood on lathe:
1) put wood in lathe
2) turn lathe on (shaft now spinning)
3) turn router on (blade spinning
4) introduce wood to blade (hello blade)
5) run blade up and down shaft
6) shaft is now round
Turn wood with doweling machine:
1) turn doweler on
2) turn feed wheels on
3) insert shaft into feed wheels
4) shaft is automatically introduced to blades and run through automatically
5) shaft is now round
If you're making 10 cues a year or 110 cues a year, you can stand by a lathe and cut shafts one at a time. I remember it taking roughly 8 hours to round 100 shafts with a lathe. We can now do that in 15 minutes. When you are a large cue manufacturer or supplier, it doesn't make sense and so they use doweling machines or purchase dowels. You have to turn shafts round and a doweling machine is the most efficient method. They don't burn the shafts nor heat them up as sanding machines do. Sanding is friction; friction is heat.
And Champeau also sands dowels for broom handles too. They are major broom handle suppliers.
Enjoy your Memorial Day Weekend.
http://champeau.com/en/product_billiard.php
They don't look burnt to me.
I've ordered a 110-pack twice from Champeau . None of the dowels were burnt.
And they were very stable. Half the lot, I sent to a friend in Asia. He was totally happy about what he saw. A Japanese friend ordered a 110-pack as well.
The list of makers getting sanded dowels from Champeau and Cuestock is long.
If Champeau and CueStock are not using doweling machines and are not very smart about it, they better wake up soon. They might go out of business.
They can easily adjust the doweler to turn round at over an inch and just sand the rest.
Hell, if BellForest figures out how to cut trees for shafts and get this doweler, they'll be raking.
I still like sanded shaft dowels. Have had no problems with them.
Heaven help all woods b/c eventually a router wing cutter will hit them. I don't think they have a choice.
They'll get sanded too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BhwnTFFvOU
It's a lovely machine.
I know, it's not that one.
But, the video is funny.
They don't look burnt to me.
I've ordered a 110-pack twice from Champeau . None of the dowels were burnt.
And they were very stable. Half the lot, I sent to a friend in Asia. He was totally happy about what he saw. A Japanese friend ordered a 110-pack as well.
The list of makers getting sanded dowels from Champeau and Cuestock is long.
If Champeau and CueStock are not using doweling machines and are not very smart about it, they better wake up soon. They might go out of business.
They can easily adjust the doweler to turn round at over an inch and just sand the rest.
Hell, if BellForest figures out how to cut trees for shafts and get this doweler, they'll be raking.
I still like sanded shaft dowels. Have had no problems with them.
Heaven help all woods b/c eventually a router wing cutter will hit them. I don't think they have a choice.
They'll get sanded too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BhwnTFFvOU
It's a lovely machine.
I know, it's not that one.
But, the video is funny.
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This is really funny stuff...
We're certain that many of you are aware that JM Champeau is one of the largest broom stick suppliers in the world. Shaft wood dowels probably doesn't account for 1% of their total business. Point being: are they supplying shaft dowels with the same precision and care as they produce broom stick handles? One has to wonder.
Regarding sanded dowels:
Why do rough cut 1" shaft dowels need to be sanded? Oh, that's right they have the equipment for making the sanded broom handles so why not produce the shafts in the same manner. That makes sense to us.
Sanding is friction and friction is heat whereby burning the shafts. Burning doesn't mean brown in color. Sanding a piece of wood on large mega production equipment is excessive heat and abuse nothing that comes close to how we sand a shaft for finishing. Why, on God's green earth do 1" shaft dowels need to be sanded in the first place? Maybe it is because that's the way they produce their broom stick handles. One inch shaft dowels do not need to be sanded; in fact, it's a procedure that doesn't need to be done. They just need to be turned round; period. Broom handles need to be sanded.
Champeau sells a lot of wooden dowels to broom stick manufacturers and they have to send them sanded dowels. I mean, imagine a broom stick handle that wasn't sanded. It doesn't matter if a broom stick is exposed to excessive heat as broom stick handles are always warped. Are they sanding shafts the same as they sand broom sticks? However, regardless of that fact, most shafts can eventually be made to remain straight no matter what abuse they are put through; broom handles or otherwise.
Of course I'm kidding here but imagine a cue manufacturer marketing their cues with broom stick shaft wood --- MEGA CUES: 'shafts so strong you can clean up the competition'. Another cue manufacturer would probably call them 'Broom271K' Technology.
In conclusion, Boone at Bell is probably the smartest one of all of us for not dealing in shaft wood. Bill at Cuestock is a great guy and has some very nice wood. In fact, we send clients to Boone and Bill just as we send people to Champeau. All in return send us clients. In fact, all the suppliers are friendly with one another. It's all part of doing business.
Ok, that's it for now as I am taking a long weekend.
We'd like to wish all of you a great Memorial Day weekend & please remember to support our Vets:
http://www.independencefund.org/
We're certain that many of you are aware that JM Champeau is one of the largest broom stick suppliers in the world. Shaft wood dowels probably doesn't account for 1% of their total business. Point being: are they supplying shaft dowels with the same precision and care as they produce broom stick handles? One has to wonder.
Regarding sanded dowels:
Why do rough cut 1" shaft dowels need to be sanded? Oh, that's right they have the equipment for making the sanded broom handles so why not produce the shafts in the same manner. That makes sense to us.
Sanding is friction and friction is heat whereby burning the shafts. Burning doesn't mean brown in color. Sanding a piece of wood on large mega production equipment is excessive heat and abuse nothing that comes close to how we sand a shaft for finishing. Why, on God's green earth do 1" shaft dowels need to be sanded in the first place? Maybe it is because that's the way they produce their broom stick handles. One inch shaft dowels do not need to be sanded; in fact, it's a procedure that doesn't need to be done. They just need to be turned round; period. Broom handles need to be sanded.
Champeau sells a lot of wooden dowels to broom stick manufacturers and they have to send them sanded dowels. I mean, imagine a broom stick handle that wasn't sanded. It doesn't matter if a broom stick is exposed to excessive heat as broom stick handles are always warped. Are they sanding shafts the same as they sand broom sticks? However, regardless of that fact, most shafts can eventually be made to remain straight no matter what abuse they are put through; broom handles or otherwise.
Of course I'm kidding here but imagine a cue manufacturer marketing their cues with broom stick shaft wood --- MEGA CUES: 'shafts so strong you can clean up the competition'. Another cue manufacturer would probably call them 'Broom271K' Technology.
In conclusion, Boone at Bell is probably the smartest one of all of us for not dealing in shaft wood. Bill at Cuestock is a great guy and has some very nice wood. In fact, we send clients to Boone and Bill just as we send people to Champeau. All in return send us clients. In fact, all the suppliers are friendly with one another. It's all part of doing business.
Ok, that's it for now as I am taking a long weekend.
We'd like to wish all of you a great Memorial Day weekend & please remember to support our Vets:
http://www.independencefund.org/
Another cue manufacturer would probably call them 'Broom271K' Technology.
They were going to but decided to shorten it to just B2k.
They were going to but decided to shorten it to just B2k.
I was working the past two weeks and didn't have the time to reply but WOW - good one!
For what it's worth, a forestry study found hickory to be more flexible at high and low growth ring counts.
Shaft wood from the center of a tree would be heart wood. I have no idea what the smaller growth ring diameter would do to dimensional stability.
Shaft wood from the center of a tree would be heart wood. I have no idea what the smaller growth ring diameter would do to dimensional stability.