^
Pandora's box.
Uh oh.
Pandora's box.
Uh oh.
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What is a "Center Cut" Shaft?
- Thread starter GBCues
- Start date
Back to what this thread was about – “quarter cut”. I believe the person was probably referring to ‘quarter sawn’ and just made a mistake in what he was talking about. I could be wrong.
Now, let me say this and then I am out of here as I am much too busy to debate this issue that has been beaten to death. It’s all fantastic that all the newbies want to pick their own wood. They want to pack a tent and drive up into the wilderness with Jack the lumberman, camp overnight to chop down only the finest maple trees that exist in the most remote location of upper Michigan. They’ll use axes like real men because a chain saw will disturb and perhaps scare the molecular structure of this fine maple specimen. That night they roasted bacon over a hot open fire like our ancestors did hundreds of years before them. The next day, the newbie was up at the crack of dawn (nice place to wake up) chopping his felled tree into manageable sections. He had Jack (the lumberman) bring up the heavy equipment so as to put the logs gingerly on the flatbed but not before the UPS man delivered the mattresses from 1-800-mattres and we left the last ‘s’ off for the savings. Jack carefully placed the logs on the new mattresses and drove them back to the mill where this newbie cue maker could inspect each and every log to select only the finest log section for his shaft wood in the cues which have yet to be made or for the next 10 cues that he is going to make.
Once he selects (only the finest log), he then has Jack the lumberman quarter saw the log into perfect 5/4 lumber boards. Jack then kiln dries those boards, carefully of course, so that they meet the specifications and standards of the newbie cue maker who picks them up in 6 weeks. Or a variation of this is that the newbie cue maker doesn’t want Jack to kiln dry the boards because the newbie wants total control over his boards and he stickers them for the next 27 years to insure stability. Either way, let’s continue….
Once the newbie cue maker gets his boards dry, whether by kiln or roasting them over a hot open fire makes no difference in this scenario but eventually they are dry and the newbie goes through all the boards and then selects only those few boards which meet his stringent specifications for mass, weight, density, color, flavor and aroma. After he makes his selection of 3 boards, he then packs up and drives back to his home wherever that may be.
Upon returning home he lets these boards rest for another 843 days before he even thinks of cutting them because exceptional cue makers go through this process for their clients because they want to supply only the finest hand selected maple for use in their shafts. (ad nauseam)
Now, as ridiculous as the above sounds, this is what some people try to sell us and the public. Whether you buy wood from us or any number of suppliers of shaft wood, eventually you’ll find shafts that will be acceptable. You need to build a relationship with one supplier who has large quantities and can select the finest for your particular application. Let me say this, I’ve been there and done all that. The bottom-line, we buy our maple from two sources who know their wood and know what we’ve come to expect from them. When you find a supplier that does it right, you stick with them and we have.
You don’t need to go into the forest to get good wood. You only need to purchase from the right source who is receiving their wood from the correct area and processed in the correct manner. We don’t buy wood from upper New England, Wisconsin, New York or Pennsylvania. In our experience, New York and Pennsylvania have very light wood and low growth ring count. Wisconsin maple is cut for the furniture industry and that is a generalization but we’ve found it to be true as we do not care for processed Wisconsin maple. Michigan maple is best; without question.
Newbies who say that you can purchase shafts based on growth rings but don’t cry when you get bad shafts, simply don’t understand the process nor how shafts are selected. When you hunt around for the cheapest you get just that, the cheapest dried wood of which you have to cull out the good ones which are few. If that’s your experience then you would make ridiculous statements and use these new terms. However, when you purchase quality shaft wood, warping is almost non-existent which many don’t know or understand because they’re too busy in the forest of upper Michigan and also because they haven't experienced quality shaft wood. Keyword here is experience with quality and not with crap. If you purchase good wood, you get good wood. If you buy crap you get crap and warping is expected. The top line cue makers all buy shaft wood from suppliers like us for a reason. We have the quantity, the sources and most importantly, the buying power to get the best where the small newbie cue maker will never have the opportunity because they are a PITA to the serious mills who produce the finest maple for shaft wood. These mills do not want to deal with "cue makers"; period.
Successful businessmen and successful cue makers leave the process of selecting the finest shaft wood to the people who make a living doing that on a daily basis. Successful cue maker make cues. We don't know of any successful cue makers who sit for hours and hours and hours selecting 22 boards to cut their 50 shafts from.
So my friends, next time you hear people telling you that they pick their own trees or any variation on that nonsense, just remember it’s because they haven’t been doing this all that long. And then there is harmonics and bouncing…. Let’s not go there! :grin:
I’m outta here as I have a business to run and things to do so have at it and have a wonderful week.
Now, let me say this and then I am out of here as I am much too busy to debate this issue that has been beaten to death. It’s all fantastic that all the newbies want to pick their own wood. They want to pack a tent and drive up into the wilderness with Jack the lumberman, camp overnight to chop down only the finest maple trees that exist in the most remote location of upper Michigan. They’ll use axes like real men because a chain saw will disturb and perhaps scare the molecular structure of this fine maple specimen. That night they roasted bacon over a hot open fire like our ancestors did hundreds of years before them. The next day, the newbie was up at the crack of dawn (nice place to wake up) chopping his felled tree into manageable sections. He had Jack (the lumberman) bring up the heavy equipment so as to put the logs gingerly on the flatbed but not before the UPS man delivered the mattresses from 1-800-mattres and we left the last ‘s’ off for the savings. Jack carefully placed the logs on the new mattresses and drove them back to the mill where this newbie cue maker could inspect each and every log to select only the finest log section for his shaft wood in the cues which have yet to be made or for the next 10 cues that he is going to make.
Once he selects (only the finest log), he then has Jack the lumberman quarter saw the log into perfect 5/4 lumber boards. Jack then kiln dries those boards, carefully of course, so that they meet the specifications and standards of the newbie cue maker who picks them up in 6 weeks. Or a variation of this is that the newbie cue maker doesn’t want Jack to kiln dry the boards because the newbie wants total control over his boards and he stickers them for the next 27 years to insure stability. Either way, let’s continue….
Once the newbie cue maker gets his boards dry, whether by kiln or roasting them over a hot open fire makes no difference in this scenario but eventually they are dry and the newbie goes through all the boards and then selects only those few boards which meet his stringent specifications for mass, weight, density, color, flavor and aroma. After he makes his selection of 3 boards, he then packs up and drives back to his home wherever that may be.
Upon returning home he lets these boards rest for another 843 days before he even thinks of cutting them because exceptional cue makers go through this process for their clients because they want to supply only the finest hand selected maple for use in their shafts. (ad nauseam)
Now, as ridiculous as the above sounds, this is what some people try to sell us and the public. Whether you buy wood from us or any number of suppliers of shaft wood, eventually you’ll find shafts that will be acceptable. You need to build a relationship with one supplier who has large quantities and can select the finest for your particular application. Let me say this, I’ve been there and done all that. The bottom-line, we buy our maple from two sources who know their wood and know what we’ve come to expect from them. When you find a supplier that does it right, you stick with them and we have.
You don’t need to go into the forest to get good wood. You only need to purchase from the right source who is receiving their wood from the correct area and processed in the correct manner. We don’t buy wood from upper New England, Wisconsin, New York or Pennsylvania. In our experience, New York and Pennsylvania have very light wood and low growth ring count. Wisconsin maple is cut for the furniture industry and that is a generalization but we’ve found it to be true as we do not care for processed Wisconsin maple. Michigan maple is best; without question.
Newbies who say that you can purchase shafts based on growth rings but don’t cry when you get bad shafts, simply don’t understand the process nor how shafts are selected. When you hunt around for the cheapest you get just that, the cheapest dried wood of which you have to cull out the good ones which are few. If that’s your experience then you would make ridiculous statements and use these new terms. However, when you purchase quality shaft wood, warping is almost non-existent which many don’t know or understand because they’re too busy in the forest of upper Michigan and also because they haven't experienced quality shaft wood. Keyword here is experience with quality and not with crap. If you purchase good wood, you get good wood. If you buy crap you get crap and warping is expected. The top line cue makers all buy shaft wood from suppliers like us for a reason. We have the quantity, the sources and most importantly, the buying power to get the best where the small newbie cue maker will never have the opportunity because they are a PITA to the serious mills who produce the finest maple for shaft wood. These mills do not want to deal with "cue makers"; period.
Successful businessmen and successful cue makers leave the process of selecting the finest shaft wood to the people who make a living doing that on a daily basis. Successful cue maker make cues. We don't know of any successful cue makers who sit for hours and hours and hours selecting 22 boards to cut their 50 shafts from.
So my friends, next time you hear people telling you that they pick their own trees or any variation on that nonsense, just remember it’s because they haven’t been doing this all that long. And then there is harmonics and bouncing…. Let’s not go there! :grin:
I’m outta here as I have a business to run and things to do so have at it and have a wonderful week.
I won't bother quoting Quoting Joe's post but he hit the nail right dead on the head. The marketing hype and bull#### that goes along with newbie cuemakers descriptions of their wood requires a total suspension of disbelief for the reader to believe them How is a cuemaker supposed to know more about the quality of a standing tree that the lumberman who has been doing this for years, felling them, sawing and drying them and seeing the final product, day in and day out, tens of thousands times.
You don't see the finest makers bragging about their wood, they don't have to. Peoples experience with makers is enough to insure a quality product will be used. I've made trips through the northern states over the past 30 years and I decided a long time ago that the only way to get the best shafts is to buy from a trustworthy supplier, use the best and figure out the cost by dividing the shafts used into the price paid. If you would be happy buying a great shaft at the final determined price, that's it. The ones you don't like don't matter.
You don't see the finest makers bragging about their wood, they don't have to. Peoples experience with makers is enough to insure a quality product will be used. I've made trips through the northern states over the past 30 years and I decided a long time ago that the only way to get the best shafts is to buy from a trustworthy supplier, use the best and figure out the cost by dividing the shafts used into the price paid. If you would be happy buying a great shaft at the final determined price, that's it. The ones you don't like don't matter.
12 years i'm still a rookie
and i do not sell shafts, just make them for my cues only. i only have 2 to 3 hundred shafts in my shop, all in different stages of curing, about 90 or so hanging waiting for the final pass.
i bounce for tone, i ring count and weigh each. i have never seen a 6-8 ring count shaft weigh as much as a 25 count ring shaft.
and i do not sell shafts, just make them for my cues only. i only have 2 to 3 hundred shafts in my shop, all in different stages of curing, about 90 or so hanging waiting for the final pass.
i bounce for tone, i ring count and weigh each. i have never seen a 6-8 ring count shaft weigh as much as a 25 count ring shaft.
Most people think so. But some people want limber whippier wood as it often produces more spin on the cue ball, but with less cue ball control. So there is a trade off and only you can decide which factors are most important to you.
What a cuemaker wants in shaft wood can vary all over the place. I have only told a few customers through the years we can no longer do business on a particular product and that product has always been wood. For instance the guy who wants me to guarantee his wood will not crack when he cores it. And the ones who want exact specs on every piece of shaft wood. I will still sell other items to those guys, but decided it was a no win on certain woods.
huh? did DPK hack your account?
yup, i seen 4 rings that were stiffer than a wedding dick and 30+ that are noodles, same for weight, there are general guide line that are 55% correct at best.
So picking select dense planks before you cut your squares then doweling them yourself is just bad business because it is much better to get shafts from the pallet of thousands of wood squares from boards that are all over the place considering specifications you seek? Trees that are forested even from a great region have different attributes depending upon many environmental factors that were site specific for each tree. Picking singular planks that meets your criteria is a straight line algorithm.
Remember that wood is a very complex subject concerning certain attributes that exist within a narrow window or envelope for shaft selection. Each cue maker needs to find that area that suits them and QC is the way to do that. In the end when you taper them, finish them, observe in in the field and track how they stand up over time using QA control systems giving one feedback that is objective, only then do you have any control.
Yeah you can buy at lot of shafts and throw a big percentage away and divide the cost. That works. IMO I love the journey not just the destination. Call me silly. I have already been called cheap hear for my behavior and now by using a specific guidelines for purchasing wood I am just a newbie because I choose to have more control of the process. I choose to use my brain, not get sucked into the urban legend about classifying shaft wood by counting rings. That is just sophomoric since there are clearly other attributes other than just that. Now I am labled as a newbie, I think not, anyone who has visited my shop would not have that same view. I guess I must be one of the so called "Nickel Dime" AZers that has been spewed here before.
You can label anybody any way you want but in the end every cue maker has a choice on how they want their river of wood to flow in their own shop.
When using logic A+B=C not A+B= what some other person wants to force feed you into believing. That is pretty obvious!
JMO,
Rick
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You fail to understand the business end of purchasing pallets. You have to be able to grasp the bigger picture and not just you selecting a few boards that meet your criteria. I would almost wager that you picking boards creates shafts that are eventually thrown away as you previously stated so your “straight line algorithm” isn’t 100% all that straight. Wood is not a ”very complex subject"; it is complex to those who have yet to understand and figure it out.
I don’t know of any veteran cue maker(s) who ” buy at lot of shafts and throw a big percentage away”. Only newbies go through that learning curve and process. Veteran cue makers use the majority of the shafts they purchase. They are purchasing well seasoned wood from reputable suppliers who know what they are doing because they do it for a living. Any "cue maker" who is still throwing away a "big percentage" is not a veteran, is still in the learning curve and/or selecting their own boards.
There is no ” urban legend about classifying shaft wood by counting rings”. We can supply shafts in any configuration a cue maker desires. Some want tight straight grain. Some just want a nice shaft with looser grain. Tight grain shafts are highly sought after by all cue makers and we charge more for them because they are so few and far between. You personally cannot get a steady supply of them in quantity but we do. We supply them to those cue makers who want tighter shafts for their cues. Remember, lower growth ring shafts are readily available. That's the wood the majority of cue makers utilize because it's available. Some cue makers who get requests for very tight grained shafts down play them because they want more profit by making a regular shaft rather than spending another $10 or $20 on a tight shaft.
If you were to ask 100 veteran cue makers which do they prefer if both were readily available; tight grained or looser grained shafts. I think you know as well as I do what the answer will be. Case closed.
No one I read has called or labeled you or at least I didn’t refer to you as a ”newbie because I choose to have more control of the process. I’m sorry you took any of my ramblings to mean you.
Experienced cue makers already know all this stuff because they have confidence in the wood they purchase. They don’t have to go through all this anymore: "In the end when you taper them, finish them, observe in in the field and track how they stand up over time using QA control systems giving one feedback that is objective, only then do you have any control".
Do you think major and experienced cue makers need to monitor their shafts in the field? Of course not. They already know by selecting from vast quantities in their shop because they know what a shaft is going to do just by looking at it and because they know the source who sold it to them. Selecting shafts is not as complex as you are making it. It’s pretty straight forward and quite simple. Really.
And lastly, I believe this was a very cheap shot: ”I guess I must be one of the so called "Nickel Dime" AZers that has been spewed here before”. It was totally uncalled for and totally out of context here. However, if you felt the need then I understand and I hope it made you feel better.
I’ll end by saying Paul Dayton hit the nail right on the head when he stated: ” The marketing hype and bull#### that goes along with newbie cuemakers descriptions of their wood requires a total suspension of disbelief for the reader to believe them. How is a cuemaker supposed to know more about the quality of a standing tree that the lumberman who has been doing this for years, felling them, sawing and drying them and seeing the final product, day in and day out, tens of thousands times.
You don't see the finest makers bragging about their wood, they don't have to. Peoples experience with makers is enough to insure a quality product will be used. I've made trips through the northern states over the past 30 years and I decided a long time ago that the only way to get the best shafts is to buy from a trustworthy supplier, use the best and figure out the cost by dividing the shafts used into the price paid. If you would be happy buying a great shaft at the final determined price, that's it. The ones you don't like don't matter”.
The end.
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Cue Crazy I remember It being a popular belief that Higher rpi shafts equated to stiffness or density said:
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This can go on forever.
Now people are pasting quotes attributed to the wrong persons.
Now people are pasting quotes attributed to the wrong persons.
scdiveteam; said:
That's urban legend imo . Well, actually it's not an urban legend b/c it goes against the normal thinking.
Worse, Steve did not say that. You misquoted him.
If we follow your take, the wide grained parts of that board ( more than likely ), will be stiffer than the tighter grained parts of that board ( I don't think it'll stay straight but we'll just talk stiffness and density) .
From my experience, that's more of an anomaly, not the norm. But, stiff low ring count woods do exist. Nothing wrong with 8-12 straight grained heavy shafts either.
If lower ring count woods are stiffer than higher ring count woods ( normally or on the average) as you say, ok.
No biggie.
~Not looking forward to being misquoted~
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That's urban legend imo . Well, actually it's not an urban legend b/c it goes against the normal thinking.
Worse, Steve did not say that. You misquoted him.
If we follow your take, the wide grained parts of that board ( more than likely ), will be stiffer than the tighter grained parts of that board ( I don't think it'll stay straight but we'll just talk stiffness and density) .
From my experience, that's more of an anomaly, not the norm. But, stiff low ring count woods do exist. Nothing wrong with 8-12 straight grained heavy shafts either.
If lower ring count woods are stiffer than higher ring count woods ( normally or on the average) as you say, ok.
No biggie.
Yeah, should have said can or offen equates.
I said also twice here that there are very good shafts that have high growth rings, we all know that. Choosing shafts by ring count alone is not a good method by itself.
No biggie either.