What is fair???????

[brandonspitler]

ok guys...i need honest opinions on this matter...

my cousin and i play at a small poolhall in Branson, MO. we are by far the best players in the place, and we try to help others to better their games as well. we play with them all the time, offer our assistance quite often and are asked just as often, the normal "what would ya do here" and "how can i stop from doing this?" questions, that we answer to the best of our abilities. we have no problem with this, as we were helped the same way when we were coming up...
the problem lies in the handicapping of the tourneys there. they allow us to play, and we show for every tourney, as we are regulars and want to show our support for our local place...even when they hardly ever pay anything more than 4 to 1 on the money for first place...
i believe they appreciate our support, however, having such an advantage in play level, they try to handicap things accordingly to give the lesser players a chance in 1 on 1 play. (which we agree completely with.)
although i think they are doing it wrong...(they make us go to 10 or more, and the lesser players to 4-6...still giving us the clear advantage because of the length of the race...ie, longer race, better player has the advantage, right?) we play, and usually win.
but lately, they have been having Scotch Doubles Tourneys (9-ball), and we play...but they are now making us draw from ONLY the very worst players in the tourney. we may only draw rom about 3 or 4 guys that are the very worst players in the hall. and i guess im getting a bit tired of it. i hate to not play, because i like to play...but some of the other players have expressed interest in drawing us as partners...and they dont have that option because they dont play bad enough! some of those players no longer show to play at all. also...i kinda feel like...i put up the same amount of entry fee as the others...as does my cousin, and therefore its kinda wrong to never let us have a chance to draw a partner that we dont have to coach EVERY SINGLE SHOT! lol.
there are also some beliefs that they have occassionally fixed the draw, so that the family members that own the poolhall get their partners of choice, and we get the dregs. (which i absolutely disagree with.)
so...is this a fair scenario?
would you even bother to play?
also...if you are not a very good player...but not BAD, would you be ok with knowing you have NO chance to draw your favorite local player/instructor as a partner?
we believe we should maybe be able to draw from everyone, except each other...is that fair? i mean, sometimes we'll get a decent partner, sometimes not.
my uncle thinks its ridiculous that its not a total blind draw, and that we should be able to draw ANYONE, even each other, because it wont happen very often.
i really wanna hear all sides!
the obvious answer to me was to introduce them to the handicapping system they use in the Kolby's tourneys...where the better players spot lesser players as if they were gambling...the 7-ball, the last 3...etc...
unfortunately, this is not an option because most of these players do not understand how a spot works, and it would take a bit of time to teach them to effectively use it.
just tired of the way it works now...its kinda like they just want to steal our money...and the lesser players money too lol.

gimme some feedback!

thx,
Brandon Lee Spitler.

 

[cigardave]

I believe that you are getting screwed. As soon as you introduce a handicapping system SOMEONE will not like it. All tournaments should be OPEN in my opinion.... i.e., no handicapping.

Here's a better way to address consistent tournament winners. If you win the tournament one week you sit out the following week. Or the winner sits out for 2 weeks. That way the lesser-skilled players get a chance at the money and prestige of winning a weekly tournament. Just one way of doing it.

 

[brandonspitler]

i agree...

I believe that you are getting screwed. As soon as you introduce a handicapping system SOMEONE will not like it. All tournaments should be OPEN in my opinion.... i.e., no handicapping.

Here's a better way to address consistent tournament winners. If you win the tournament one week you sit out the following week. Or the winner sits out for 2 weeks. That way the lesser-skilled players get a chance at the money and prestige of winning a weekly tournament. Just one way of doing it.

i agree with that, and i have no problem with them trying to make it more fair for the lesser players. because our intention is certainly NOT to just rob the tourneys...as i said it doesnt really pay alot, and they still take out greens fees, and the entries are only from $8 to $13. but i really believe there is a better way to do this. my cousin and i have still managed to win a few of the partner tourneys, but not a majority at all. and it doesnt inspire me to play at all. id rather place...you know, like...3rd or 4th or 5th...with a player that can at least draw his ball rather than suffer through with someone that cannot EVERY WEEK! lol, and win every once in awhile.
its a crappy situation.

thx!

 

[Jallan]

Mgmt issues

If you are regulars and are not hassling the customers I have a hard time dealing with the fact that they are trying to keep you from being competative. I don't know the situation or the people involved but to me it seems that there may be a personal issue in play and not just an issue dealing with you or your kin winning to often.

As far as the singles something needs to be done to keep it as level as possible or you won't have any money in the pool besides your own. That being said, the way the doubles is being held/ran is just plain wrong. I would walk and I would let them know why. I'd say mgnt wants you gone.

 

[pooltchr]

Scotch doubles is harder to handiocap than individuals. Most tournaments I have played in combine the handicap of both players. But the way to keep it more balanced is to have a combined handicap total limit. If the limit is 12, you can have 2 6's as partners or a 10 and a 2. That might be an option, if they don't already do that.

Steve

 

[cmbwsu]

I believe that you are getting screwed. As soon as you introduce a handicapping system SOMEONE will not like it. All tournaments should be OPEN in my opinion.... i.e., no handicapping.

Here's a better way to address consistent tournament winners. If you win the tournament one week you sit out the following week. Or the winner sits out for 2 weeks. That way the lesser-skilled players get a chance at the money and prestige of winning a weekly tournament. Just one way of doing it.

How about one winner per week per discipline (9-Ball Monday & 8-Ball Thursday) and having the respective four compete on the last Saturday (9-Ball) and Sunday (8-Ball) for the Monthly Champs. Take 8X10 glossies of the winners, have them sign 'em, and hang them up for all to see. Monthly Champs cannot compete in another Monthly but can compete in the Weeklies for the cheese; however, the nearest finisher gets the nod for that week. Hold the December Monthly Finals on the last Saturday and then have both sets of 12 (9-Ball & 8-Ball) do the Yearly on the last Sunday. Yearly Champs get their 8X10s posted as above.

There is something about having pics up (ala the pros). Some will come practice more to get their pics up (to gain bragging rights among other players) while others will bring folks to show their friends (players and non-players alike) of their accomplishment -- in either case that equates to more interest in the sport and more $$ for the hall.

By the way, I put this together at Norton Air Force Base, CA in the 70s (which is now closed dammit) and it really brought the folks out. First weekly we had around a dozen or so but after a few months we never had less then 40. The monthlies and yearlies (especially the latter) brought a lot of rail-birds and the food/beer sales went nutzo.

Well, that's my break -- take your shot or roll out!

Bob

 

[12310bch]

it's hard to be you

Yeah! I don't envy you being so good at this darn game . I personally have been holding myself back from improving so that I won't run into this problem.
It appears that I have been successful in my nontraining. When there is a local tournament I get engraved invitations and they pick me up in a limo. :grin::grin::grin:

 

[tom mcgonagle]

Handicapping, anything, especially pool matches, is never going to be perfect, or fair.

Look at it this way. Would you rather be the better player giving up weight or the lesser player receiving the weight.

It's up to the people running things to make things as fair as possible. Unfortunately they seem to favor the lesser players. They need the business.

The only thing that bothers me is when I'm handing out a ton of weight and I lose and the person runs around telling everyone they beat me.

It's never easy. Hang in there or find a place with better players.

 

[stljohnny]

I just played in my first tournament earlier this month at my local hall, and while I played terribly, it was a learning experience. it was a handicapped system and it was 9-ball, so luck played a huge part. The FINAL round was an excellent player (a 9) against this teenage kid (a 2).... the kid won. That's the purpose of the handicap, so that it can happen - but after talking with a few other players, they were suprised they even let the 2 in... there were a couple of them, and they knocked out two 4's and a 6 - iirc.

I think it's fair to have a handicap system like for small tournaments - but it doesn't mean there aren't issues with it - especially for the better players.

I think it should be alternate break format for handicaped tournaments as well - this was winner-breaks.

As to your specific situation - I'd stay out of the tournaments, or get them to have entrance restrictions for a variety of tournaments: one week have only C players, the next have only B, etc... or maybe you should only play in the one-pocket and banks tournaments (if they have them); let the others learn the game on their own?

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Gee Tom,
Without the business, you'd be playing, where?

At what point do pool players forget about the time they were always finishing in the 75% of the field that didn't get paid?

If those 75% of players are not happy, the other 25% will be looking somewhere else for tournaments.

It's up to the people running things to make things as fair as possible. Unfortunately they seem to favor the lesser players. They need the business.

The only thing that bothers me is when I'm handing out a ton of weight and I lose and the person runs around telling everyone they beat me.

It's never easy. Hang in there or find a place with better players.

 

[qbilder]

It's sticky. Personally, if i'm playing a guy who is 3 levels above me & I win due to handicap, I don't feel like a winner. Handicapping is a something for nothing fix for the something for nothing kind of people. Now any hack can be competent, without the time & practice. Handicapping straights sucks. Simply.

However, as posted above, with no handicapping you'll end up playing for your own money. Most of the feild is full of "something for nothings" and they straight jet on you when the handicap is gone. They don't have a chance. And they simply don't have the love of the game & desire for greatness to sacrifice losing money. They suck and they want the chance to get paid for it. This is who you are playing pool with. The room owner has to pay mortgage or rent, utilities, payrole, etc. So guess what? They'll cater to the "something for nothings" because there's more of them than there are of you, and as such they make more money on them. MAYBE, just MAYBE, if you began tipping out at least 15% of your winnings each time you cash, the TD will begin edging you some more wiggle room so he can pocket more cash as you win more cash. It works well for me, everywhere I play. I even tip out the house on my gambling wins. But that's a choice you gotta make.

There's no really good way to resolve this situation. So play the system or quit. Understand the TD's needs & cater to it. He'll take care of you when you are making him some gas & taco bell money every week.

 

[stuckart]

Brandon, the tournament at Kolby's are based on the Arizona Ratings of each players. But there are hundred's of other tourneys in Phoenix that use the ratings as well. Including Many Many Scotch doubles.

Most of the bigger $500 added scotch events are handicapped at a Maximum of 16.

If your players were ranked in such a way, you could put a max handicap cap and also still handicap the tournament.

Most of ours are Race to Team handicap - 8 or so. So teams of 16 handicap race to 8, whereas teams with handicap of 14 only race to 6.

It seems to draw out the most players and has the least amount of complaints.

Good Luck!!

 

[blah blah]

read carefully

Since there's no real money or exciting challenge, it sounds like this is more of a social community thing for you, with just a little smidgen of tournament effort. Seems to me there are two issues: first, you believe the handicaps need adjusting, and what seems to be a more important second, the "draw" in the tournament is not a draw.

Handicaps... you're not crying about the handicap being unfair, here- you actually said it favors you with a longer race, thereby defeating the purpose of the handicap. The lesser players currently need to go to 4 games at the lowest- but how does 3 or 2 sound? One? : ) Would you prefer giving up balls? Make a suggestion that would challenge you- they clearly want to keep everyone happy and feeling like they have a chance.

Second, you say that in the Scotch Doubles the "draw" for the teams always gives you and your brother the very very weakest players for teammates, and the directors and owners always match themselves up with each other/ family. You don't get to play with a variety of people, and you always get stuck in the role of teacher- to- the- weakest. Not much you can learn or enjoy telling someone every single detailed shot and then being informative and encouraging after each.

I think there's a very big problem with "draws" that aren't chance draws- I even suspect the td's are sitting around deciding who's going to win anyway, what matches they'd like to watch, what players they want to keep around and in the tournament as long as possible (who they want to hang out with), and then scripting their personal entertainment.

And if they are "drawing" up everyone's partnerships in the scotch doubles, they really are "scripting their own entertainment." Who wants to just be an actor in their little production? As just an average player myself, I'd even be worried about cliques and typecasting. But you get cast into kindergarten teacher mode every single time, when you could look forward to the mix of teaching a third grader one night and a highschooler the next, right?

Do they pretend the draw is random? Ask to watch the draw. Do they admit to assigning- by- preference and claim it's the best? The suggestions above, with handicap numbers and limits, sound good, but you're still going to get the very weakest players with your very highest handicaps. : )

Yes, I just argued myself in a circle.

Good morning.

 

[irock]

12310bch...... That was funny