What is Slop?

Surly

Surly

This is it.
Silver Member
I've been watching some small time games on On the Rail and CueTV, and I've also been brushing up on APA rules since my local hall is an APA league hall... and I'm kinda surprised at what I'm seeing...

The first thing that surprised me is that my object ball can accidently slam into anything and as long as I make the pocket, I'm good to go. It seems to me that a good player isn't going to veer off 2", accidently hit another ball with their object ball and drop the OB by some crazy stroke of luck... an average player will do that a lot, but not a good player, so why is that accepted?

And then on a video I saw recently between two AZers, the object ball was frozen on the long rail down at the end of the table. The cue ball was right across from it on the opposite rail. The player slams the object ball, it banks pretty as you please to the corner pocket in front of the shooter, and just barely misses! It then banks back and goes into the opposite corner pocket and the player keeps playing! I KNOW the player intended it to drop in the first corner pocket - it was obvious - it just barely missed, but yet they were allowed to keep playing.

It's kind of blowing my mind that the dive bar I learned to play in had stricter rules than professionals.... What am I missing here?
 
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Surly said:
I've been watching some small time games on On the Rail and CueTV, and I've also been brushing up on APA rules since my local hall is an APA league hall... and I'm kinda surprised at what I'm seeing...

The first thing that surprised me is that my object ball can accidently slam into anything and as long as I make the pocket, I'm good to go. It seems to me that a good player isn't going to veer off 2", accidently hit another ball with their object ball and drop the OB by some crazy stroke of luck... an average player will do that a lot, but not a good player, so why is that accepted?

And then on a video I saw recently between two AZers, the object ball was frozen on the long rail down at the end of the table. The cue ball was right across from it on the opposite rail. The player slams the object ball, it banks pretty as you please to the corner pocket in front of the shooter, and just barely misses! It then banks back and goes into the opposite corner pocket and the player keeps playing! I KNOW the player intended it to drop in the first corner pocket - it was obvious - it just barely missed, but yet they were allowed to keep playing.

It's kind of blowing my mind that the dive bar I learned to play in had stricter rules than professionals.... What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

i'd just like to point out that the first a in apa stands for amateur. yep the apa is a slop league. hit one of yours first and as long as it drops some where (or any other one of your balls drops) youre good to go. of course that probably doesnt happen so much with the higher skill levels, but it is pretty damned frustrating when your playing by these rules (when not playing league).

i made a verb out of apa. now when a ball is slopped in i might say "wow way to apa that ball in" ;)

sorry apa players i know theres a lot of you out there and i mean no disrespect. i just think thats a weakness in apa rules.

brian
 
So I'm not going to see any of that during the US Open, right??

Will they be playing BCA rules or World Standardized Rules or some other rules?
 
Bar room rules

Bar room rules is no rules. I do know what you mean but most bar room players do not understand the difference between call shot and call pocket. I would never play a match of any serious intent with out having rules to play by. I mean what happens in the following scenarios....... object ball goes on the floor, cue ball goes on floor, what happens when the cue ball and object ball are frozen. What a bar room shooter can get away with is amazing due to the unwritten rules. Far more can be gotten away with playing in a bar room than someone sh*tting a ball in once in a while. What penalty is there for any "rule violation" in bar room rules?

APA is an amature league for all levels. Not having to call your pocket gives a lower level player an advantage there. Across the country the average of all handicaps for men in the APA is something like 4.3. You are not playing amongst professionals. You do have to play your best game even against a three because they are going to get lucky from time to time and yes you will to. Play the game play your best and enjoy that.
 
First off what is the game ?

"4 rails and two caroms" is legal in most 9 ball rule sets.. once the object is hit the fall out is legal...

Nominating the ball and the pocket is the standard for most sets of rules in most other games... there really is no need to call every single thing in the path between the ball and pocket...

that aint APA ...thats BCA, World Standerized and a host of others.
 
Surly said:
I've been watching some small time games on On the Rail and CueTV, and I've also been brushing up on APA rules since my local hall is an APA league hall... and I'm kinda surprised at what I'm seeing...

The first thing that surprised me is that my object ball can accidently slam into anything and as long as I make the pocket, I'm good to go. It seems to me that a good player isn't going to veer off 2", accidently hit another ball with their object ball and drop the OB by some crazy stroke of luck... an average player will do that a lot, but not a good player, so why is that accepted?
Click to expand...

It's not quite that simple. A "good" player might see that ten ball a few inches to the side of the corner pocket he's banking the six ball toward and realize the six ball could
(1) go in clean
(2) or if it's off course it could carom off the ten and still go in,
(3) or if it's off course in the other direction it could run into the cushion and then carom off the ten and go in.

People say there's a "big pocket" for the bank. In other words the good player could have played that otherwise difficult or risky bank shot precisely because it is made easier by the presence of the ten ball.

Another reason to play normal call-shot (which means call ball and pocket), as opposed to Joe's-bar-call-all-details is it makes the communication easier and less frequent. You don't have to stop your flow to make clear that you WANT a ball to carom off another ball or you DON'T WANT the ball to touch another ball.

Still reason to play normal call-shot is it avoids many arguments about what you did or didn't call and what you did or didn't intend.

And then on a video I saw recently between two AZers, the object ball was frozen on the long rail down at the end of the table. The cue ball was right across from it on the opposite rail. The player slams the object ball, it banks pretty as you please to the corner pocket in front of the shooter, and just barely misses! It then banks back and goes into the opposite corner pocket and the player keeps playing! I KNOW the player intended it to drop in the first corner pocket - it was obvious - it just barely missed, but yet they were allowed to keep playing.
Click to expand...

This would not be OK if they were playing a call shot game like 8-ball or straight pool. But it would be OK if they were playing 9-ball. In 9-ball and in one-pocket, there is no requirement to call a shot.

It's kind of blowing my mind that the dive bar I learned to play in had stricter rules than professionals.... What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

Those "stricter" rules are I think a bad idea.
 
I'd prefer no slop in the APA too, but it is rarely a deciding factor and one positive case you could make is that it avoids arguments about intended pocket.
 
Surly said:
So I'm not going to see any of that during the US Open, right??

Will they be playing BCA rules or World Standardized Rules or some other rules?
Click to expand...

bca rules are "world standarized rules" whatever that means. even under bca rules 9ball and 10ball are still "slop" games, where there is no requirement to call a pocket, just make contact with the lowest numbered ball. however at the pro level slop doesnt happen all that often. 8ball though is a call ball / call pocket game. no slop at all. i believe the us open is 9ball, so yes you may see some of that.

brian
 
I suppose I'm using the word 'professionals' when I should be using the term 'serious players'...

I can understand slop between friends, but I just assumed that if you're going to form leagues and be on live feeds all over the world, you would say, "Ok, here are the rules" instead of, "Don't worry about rules, we're all friends here"...

And I understand the amatuer part, but damn. Is it really that hard to play honest pool??? I'm going to look foolish, once I join a league, walking away from the table and having to be reminded, "Uh, it's still your shot..." And I don't even want to think about losing to a slop shot.... Oy, I've got a lot to learn, don't I?
 
mikepage said:
It's not quite that simple. A "good" player might see that ten ball a few inches to the side of the corner pocket he's banking the six ball toward and realize the six ball could
(1) go in clean
(2) or if it's off course it could carom off the ten and still go in,
(3) or if it's off course in the other direction it could run into the cushion and then carom off the ten and go in.

People say there's a "big pocket" for the bank. In other words the good player could have played that otherwise difficult or risky bank shot precisely because it is made easier by the presence of the ten ball.

Another reason to play normal call-shot (which means call ball and pocket), as opposed to Joe's-bar-call-all-details is it makes the communication easier and less frequent. You don't have to stop your flow to make clear that you WANT a ball to carom off another ball or you DON'T WANT the ball to touch another ball.

Still reason to play normal call-shot is it avoids many arguments about what you did or didn't call and what you did or didn't intend.



This would not be OK if they were playing a call shot game like 8-ball or straight pool. But it would be OK if they were playing 9-ball. In 9-ball and in one-pocket, there is no requirement to call a shot.



Those "stricter" rules are I think a bad idea.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying call every shot and being anal about it, I'm just saying that if things look tricky, you should make clear what you intend to make happen, instead of keeping your mouth shut in the hopes that it will go in any way, shape, or form...

Maybe I should just give up this silly idea of playing with confidence and executing precise skill with no excuses...
 
Surly said:
[...]

I can understand slop between friends, but I just assumed that if you're going to form leagues and be on live feeds all over the world, you would say, "Ok, here are the rules" instead of, "Don't worry about rules, we're all friends here"...
Click to expand...

But that's probably not what you're seeing; you're probably seeing people who are serious about the rules and serious about enforcing the rules. They're just playing by rules you're not accustomed to.

And I understand the amatuer part, but damn. Is it really that hard to play honest pool??? I'm going to look foolish, once I join a league, walking away from the table and having to be reminded, "Uh, it's still your shot..." And I don't even want to think about losing to a slop shot.... Oy, I've got a lot to learn, don't I?
Click to expand...

You have to start, imo, by getting over seeing a good, unplanned result as somehow dishonest. It is what it is. Move on...
 
Surly said:
I'm not saying call every shot and being anal about it, I'm just saying that if things look tricky, you should make clear what you intend to make happen, instead of keeping your mouth shut in the hopes that it will go in any way, shape, or form...

Maybe I should just give up this silly idea of playing with confidence and executing precise skill with no excuses...
Click to expand...

Perhaps it is to my advantage to carom my ball into the pocket off of an object ball. Why should I reveal the strategy I am employing? Isn't it to my advantage that you believe I lucked it in? If you are a smart player and you are paying attention you will begin to see intentional versus accidental.
The bank shot you refered to is an example of accidental or slop the carom shot you refered to is an example of intentional "slop" using your definition of it.
The real good players who have been playing these rule sets will just keep shooting like they meant to pocket the ball where it fell. Newer players to the rule set will pause or feel like they have cheated when they slop it in. Often though they will keep on shooting, per the rules, they will miss shortly after the slop.
I too, started playing in a bar room where you were supposed to call every kiss, carom, rail or billiard on the way to the pocket, unless of course the rail contact was within one diamond of the pocket....:rolleyes:
It is rare when slop determines the outcome of the match.
Play by the rules given and take full advantage of them, like you would in any other game or sport.


:cool:
 
O Likes Me Some Big Brother 10......and Judge Judy

"WHAT IS SLOP ?"



Slop is what you have to eat all week on Big Brother 10 if you lose the 'food challenge.'

Doug
 
I think I understand what you're saying... I never thought of it that way. It's not about playing within defined restrictions, it's about getting the job done...

Huh. I do have a lot to learn...
 
As far as I know, there is no rule book, for any game, that stipulates that you must call every instance of ball contact, other than made up bar rules that is. 14.1 was always considered the toughest pool challenge and you only called ball and pocket. The rule for 8-ball, which is what is normally played in bars and where the slop rule is usually concerned, has evolved and changed many times through the years. It was always a slop game. When the smaller pool tables first starting getting popular in the sixties in taverns the good players started going to the bars to fleece the bars normal patrons, who usually had no clue how to play. Around 1970 the suckers revolted and came up with bar rules so as to prolong the game and give themselves a little better edge. Shooting a ball into a pocket that was cluttered with other balls near by became dangerous. You new the ball had a very good chance of going but now you had to call every single little contact. If it was the 8-ball, then you could lose on a great shot because you called it off the rail, off the 5-ball, off the 3-ball and off the rail again but it just happen to occur slightly different. I was in a bar box tournament one night and in the semi-finals a fellow banked a ball straight back from right next to the corner pocket. It was a very good shot which I thought was unmakeable but he made it but while doing it the object ball touched the long rail and the referee said he needed to have called it 2 rails instead of one and he lost the match. All call shot does is nothing but cause arguments and is nit-picking by those who have no clue how to play as far as I'm concerned.

Dick
 
a good player isn't going to veer off 2", accidently hit another ball with their object ball and drop the OB by some crazy stroke of luck... an average player will do that a lot, but not a good player, so why is that accepted?
Click to expand...

You answered your own question: because it doesn't happen much with good players, so it isn't important enough to have a rule for, and the less rules the better.

pj
chgo
 
What you're missing..

Surly said:
I've been watching some small time games on On the Rail and CueTV, and I've also been brushing up on APA rules since my local hall is an APA league hall... and I'm kinda surprised at what I'm seeing...

The first thing that surprised me is that my object ball can accidently slam into anything and as long as I make the pocket, I'm good to go.

Nope. In APA as long as you make ANY pocket you're good to go. This is how APA gets the "slop league" rep

It seems to me that a good player isn't going to veer off 2", accidently hit another ball with their object ball and drop the OB by some crazy stroke of luck... an average player will do that a lot, but not a good player, so why is that accepted?

You're right a good player isn't going to do this and an average player will do it very rarely as well. It just doesn't come up often enough to worry about it. One instance where call pocket is clearly superior s when my opponent has a ball in front of a pocket. I want to hit his ball on the way in, but should I be penalized if it goes in clean?

And then on a video I saw recently between two AZers, the object ball was frozen on the long rail down at the end of the table. The cue ball was right across from it on the opposite rail. The player slams the object ball, it banks pretty as you please to the corner pocket in front of the shooter, and just barely misses! It then banks back and goes into the opposite corner pocket and the player keeps playing! I KNOW the player intended it to drop in the first corner pocket - it was obvious - it just barely missed, but yet they were allowed to keep playing.

You're missing something here too. What game were they playing. You need to understand the differences in the major pool games that are played. Eight ball is a call pocket or call shot game. Nine ball is not. In one pocket you don't have to call anything, just make a ball in your pocket. 14.1, as someone else pointed is a call pocket only game.

It's kind of blowing my mind that the dive bar I learned to play in had stricter rules than professionals....

This is where you're really missing something. I can almost guarantee you that the dive bar you played in had NO rules. Was there a reference you could use when disputes arose? Doubtful. If your opponent took a shot, completely missed his object balls and "accidentally" tied up a couple of yours - what was the penalty? Ball in hand? Again, doubtful. Was the 8ball neutral? Table open after the break? Not so strict after all, eh?

I do agree that call pocket is a bit more relaxed way to play than call shot, but the rest of the rules the professionals and serious players play by make the "real" game much tougher and better to play than any bar "rules".

Even the APA is FAR superior to anything played in a bar! imo, of course!

What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

...a lot! imo

And no since 9ball is the game at the US Open you won't have to worry about it. You WILL see the best players in the world.

See you there. I'll be right in the "end zone" as always.

MM
 
9-ball has always been ok to slop. Even in the WPC and any other professional league, it's always slop in 9-ball. But 8-ball has always been call pocket, call shot, call caroms. those are the rules that I've always played by.
 
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