What is the correct way to shoot this????

[Patrick Johnson]

Welcome back PJ.

Thanks, Rick.

I do not appreciate you making false statements about what I am or am not doing.

It appears that you've made an incorrect assumption or you are another arrogant individual that thinks themselves to be omniscient & can read the minds & intentions of others.

I didn't say you're doing it intentionally - in fact I assume you don't know you're propagating a myth.

A 3mm tip contact patch is rather small & for one to think that can consistently put the center of that very small tip contact on the exact center line of a 2 1/4 inch sphere is well... I won't assign a word to it.

What do you think makes hitting a precise off center spot any easier? Or why do you think it matters less? Any stroke error has the same effect either way. The "benefits" of avoiding center ball are a myth - stop chasing rainbows and improve your stroke.

Thanks again for the welcome,

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Welcome back, PJ.

Thanks, Matt.

pj
chgo

 

[Pidge]

There isn't a correct way to shoot this shot just a preferred way. My preferred way would be to hit it plain ball. Right in the middle and it should have a little follow by the time it contacts the other ball to help keep the line down table true. The rest is just getting the right speed for the table you're on.

 

[BasementDweller]

Thanks, Rick.


I didn't say you're doing it intentionally - in fact I assume you don't know you're propagating a myth.


What do you think makes hitting a precise off center spot any easier? Or why do you think it matters less? Any stroke error has the same effect either way. The "benefits" of avoiding center ball are a myth - stop chasing rainbows and improve your stroke.

Thanks again for the welcome,

pj
chgo

Just wanted to get my welcome back in before you're here too long and it becomes like saying "Happy New Year" to someone in February.

So welcome back.

This myth that you are speaking of -- I have found it very interesting that certain proponents of this line of thought decide to ONLY aim for center cue ball on straight in shots. I often wonder why this is? If you can hit the center of the cue ball on straight in shots, why would you not be able to do so on cut shots? I think this is where the marketing claims break down.

Or maybe it's just me.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks, Rick.


I didn't say you're doing it intentionally - in fact I assume you don't know you're propagating a myth.


What do you think makes hitting a precise off center spot any easier? Or why do you think it matters less? Any stroke error has the same effect either way. The "benefits" of avoiding center ball are a myth - stop chasing rainbows and improve your stroke.

Thanks again for the welcome,

pj

chgo

I understand your point that the odds of hitting the exact center line or spot are just the same as hitting any other line or spot. To think otherwise would be illogical. I & others always did understand that.

I don't disagree & I doubt that CJ would disagree with that either IF laid out properly & not cloaked in an onslaught of other 'meaningless' words.

But it seems that some want to frame things to imply that that IS what CJ is saying. I certainly don't think that CJ is saying anything like that.

You seem too intelligent to not know what CJ is truly saying.

Yet, it seems that you still enjoy playing 'discussion' games through your intellectual manipulation of words & phrases. You are good at it. You know when to say too little & you know when to cloud things up with very many words that actually say little.

IMHO AZB would be a much a better place with less 'Games' & if used more to actually help others to make their own determinations than to pump up egos or to force feed what they believe.

You could be a very valuable asset to AZB if you truly wished to be so.

Best 2 You & Everyone,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Just wanted to get my welcome back in before you're here too long and it becomes like saying "Happy New Year" to someone in February.

So welcome back.

This myth that you are speaking of -- I have found it very interesting that certain proponents of this line of thought decide to ONLY aim for center cue ball on straight in shots. I often wonder why this is? If you can hit the center of the cue ball on straight in shots, why would you not be able to do so on cut shots? I think this is where the marketing claims break down.

Or maybe it's just me.

I think CJ sometimes klumps a few subjects together.

I can tell you from even my limited use of TOI back more than a year ago the I used TOI to shoot straight in shots where the pocket was partially blocked with extremely good success.

It takes a bit of 'creativity' by aligning for a miss & using the squirt to send it into the partial pocket. Much like aligning to miss the pocket & then throwing it in with outside english.

THAT is one of the advantages of the TOI system that CJ talks about with the 3 part pocket system & awareness.

Now, slow rolling a ball is another story.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I understand your point that the odds of hitting the exact center line or spot are just the same as hitting any other line or spot.

That's right, the theory of favoring one side isn't that you can hit more precisely off center; it's that you've eliminated half the consequences. But with your same old stroke you're going to miss the off center mark just as often and in the same ways you'd miss the center spot - to the left and to the right. And so you'll miss your target just as often and by the same amount as before, both to the left and to the right.

But here's the good part: in the process you'll become more aware of precisely where you're hitting the CB, so your stroke and tip placement will improve, maybe even your focus in general. These are powerful improvements, and I'm not surprised that players like them. I'm glad that more players are learning the valuable lesson to cue more precisely, even if it's not the way I'd teach it.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

That's right, the theory of favoring one side isn't that you can hit more precisely off center; it's that you've eliminated half the consequences. But with your same old stroke you're going to miss the off center mark just as often and in the same ways you'd miss the center spot - to the left and to the right. And so you'll miss your target just as often and by the same amount as before, both to the left and to the right.

But here's the good part: in the process you'll become more aware of precisely where you're hitting the CB, so your stroke and tip placement will improve, maybe even your focus in general. These are powerful improvements, and I'm not surprised that players like them. I'm glad that more players are learning the valuable lesson to cue more precisely, even if it's not the way I'd teach it.

pj
chgo

Good post.

CJ is not trying to teach one how to stroke better by using TOI. That may be a byproduct for some using TOI over time. But, CJ IS trying to show what, from his vast experience, is a better way to play the game. One is not going to improve the accuracy of their stroke overnight but one could improve their game in as little as 3 hours.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested to hear how you would teach one to cue more precisely. Maybe that would be a good thread for you to start.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...I'd be interested to hear how you would teach one to cue more precisely.

I just mean I wouldn't teach things like avoiding center ball.

pj
chgo

 

[Ratta]

HI Patrick,

good to see you re back in town

have a smooth stroke,

lg from overseas,

Ingo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As Bob says, it depends on table conditions and how far you want the CB to go. I think you should prefer vertical axis, but you'll need sidespin sometimes too, so try to master both.

pj
chgo

P. S. There's another way to shoot this shot that makes side spin irrelevant - hit slightly rail first with stun. The CB caroms off the OB and goes straight down table along the tangent line.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

HI Patrick,

good to see you re back in town

have a smooth stroke,

lg from overseas,

Ingo

Hi Ingo - thanks.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

I just mean I wouldn't teach things like avoiding center ball.

pj
chgo

And that's the thing. The actual subject seems to get confused & flip flopped back & forth from time to time.

You seem to be focusing on one getting an accurate stroke & how TOI might aid in that endeavor.

CJ's introduction of TOI here was to 'teach' how to play, what through his vast experience, is a better method or style of play.

The two are completely different subjects.

CJ has stated numerous times that one needs to have an accurate stroke or one will not fully receive the benefits of using TOI on a continual basis.

Best 2 you & all,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You seem to be focusing on one getting an accurate stroke & how TOI might aid in that endeavor.

I'm focusing on factuality - responding to whatever claims, for TOI or any other method, don't stand to simple reason. TOI's claims just happen to be all over the forum lately, so that's the "factuality topic" du jour.

I also try to give credit where it's due, but that doesn't mean I'm "focusing" on that.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm focusing on factuality - responding to whatever claims, for TOI or any other method, don't stand to simple reason. TOI's claims just happen to be all over the forum lately, so that's the "factuality topic" du jour.

I also try to give credit where it's due, but that doesn't mean I'm "focusing" on that.

pj
chgo

I hear you & that's my point. I have never seen CJ make any claim that using TOI would make one's stroke more accurate.

But... some seem to have interpreted what he has said into that or his words were twisted by someone & then readers have taken that as coming from CJ & 'discussions' startup that have no real basis.

Different vernacular & twisted meanings are not good for any genuine discussion.

IF one was able to consistently stroke perfectly & consistently hit the exact target on the OB just as one wants & if one never had to move the CB off it's normal path of travel, then one would never need to do anything other then hit center CB.

But that is simply not real life. It may work very well for a video game, but it is basically impossible for human beings on a real life table.

Using TOI as outlined by CJ Wiley makes it easier to be successful at actually playing the game, at least in my opinion given my 47 years of playing the game in another manner.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[Scott Lee]

Good to have you posting again Pat! Nice to see you last weekend, even if only briefly! You and I both know that expert players hit center CB at will, and trying to say that they don't is simply ridiculous. All one has to do is look at Mark Wilson's book and it proves it. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[Ratta]

Welcome back, PJ. I mean that very sincerely and I have been trying to be more friendly and more open with others.

I was thinking of your broad knowledge base and excellent posts just days ago and wondering when you might return to these forums. I was just wondering about other forums and where teachers and players discuss things rather than throw darts--some at AZ can still be abrasive to others--I hope we can get off on the right foot (pool pun not intended) this time.

Thanks.

i had very similar thoughts in the last weeks; nice posting matt! really!

lg from overseas.

 

[Ratta]

Good to have you posting again Pat! Nice to see you last weekend, even if only briefly! You and I both know that expert players hit center CB at will, and trying to say that they don't is simply ridiculous. All one has to do is look at Mark Wilson's book and it proves it.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

yes sir ☺
and the 2 words: "at will" couldn t be high-lighted enough !

 

[ENGLISH!]

When did it happen that the topic became in reference to expert players?

CJ did not introduce TOI here on AZB for expert players.

If everyone were an expert player there would be no need for instructors nor much of this AZB site.

I think it would be incorrect to assert or suggest that when an expert player misses it has nothing to do with a stroke error.

It's fairly difficult for even an expert player to consistently put the center of an approximate 3mm tip contact area exactly on the vertical axis of a 2 1/4" diameter sphere. A mere 2mm off & a miss could pop up depending on the circumstances.

Naturally, how one chooses to play should be decided by each individual.

I chose at 13 years old to play hitting nearly every shot with some form of an offset hit, i.e. english, as opposed to trying to hit the center line with that extremely small tip contact area.

CJ has said many times that if one does not get it or like it or it's not working well for them now, then put it on a shelf as you may want to bring it down at a future time.

Everyone is at choice.

Best 2 All,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Good to have you posting again Pat! Nice to see you last weekend, even if only briefly! You and I both know that expert players hit center CB at will, and trying to say that they don't is simply ridiculous. All one has to do is look at Mark Wilson's book and it proves it. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hey Scott - good to see you too - I can always tell you're here because the pool room looks like a movie set! Let's play some one rocket next time.

pj
chgo