What Is Wrong With These Guys?

Well, there were several good matches before ours, OMGWTF vs. CUBC was pretty spectacular imo. Then OMGWTF vs. Borana Andoni. Then Bartrum vs. Geno.

I like both sides of pool, the sport side and the matching up side. I also like to see grudge matches played out.

I don't think they have to be played for large amounts either, enough to sting but not enough to put someone into financial trouble.

As for the idea that big time money pool is dead...it isn't, it's just not reported on AZB all the time. People are starting to figure out that they don't need to blab it all over the net every time someone makes a score. There are still many people who like to back players and players who like to bet it up. Many thousandaires and millionaires who like the action in pool and aren't addicted to casino gambling.
 
BRussell said:
I know most people disagree with me, but I thought your match with JB was ego-driven stupidity, and not in the least bit honorable. It definitely doesn't make me think "why doesn't everyone do this?" More like "Im glad I have more self-control and common sense than these guys."

It was fun to watch, in the same way that people are drawn to car accidents.

I suppose it comes down to your view of gambling. Personally I'm much more interested in tourneys like that World Cup of Pool. Sports not, gambling. I know most people disagree with me, but I think a sizable minority agrees.
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You're right, I don't agree with you.

I believe the gambling and the money was certainly secondary in this particular instance. A necessary component, to make it "mean something", but the true motivation for this match was the extensive history between these two.

It was put up or shut up.

Fortunately, they both "put up" and neither will "shut up". (Not they either would have, but now there is no need.)

This was a fantastic example of how to promote something, and the drama that went along with it. The problem is, of course, that you can't really script something like Lou and JB's history, so to recreate this event is nigh impossible. Still, the template is obvious. An underlying story, a little bad blood, makes for great theater, as Lou noted.

I'm glad it finally took place. I hope we see more matches like this. I somehow doubt the pro's could put on nearly as good a "show" as this match delivered. The gambling was secondary.
 
lfigueroa said:
My question is pretty simple: What is wrong with the pros that they cannot get their kitty litter in one big bunch and target a challenge to another top player?

For years, JB and I nipped at each other. And when it came down to it, we played a challenge match for $10K. JB put up most of his, I chose to incorporate. But we played, there was anticipation, a stream, lots of viewers.

Why cannot ___________ (insert the player of your choice) come up with the dough to challenge another player for a sizable chunk. And I don't mean the $10K JB and I played for -- why not $25K, $50K, or $100K. (Yes, I know Earl and Efren did that way back when, but I believe a promoter put up the money.)

Certainly, someone must like: JA, RM, DA, MD, SVB, Name Any Filipino, Name Any Chinese Player, Name Any Taiwanese Player, Name Any European MC Player enough to say: I want to play_________ for $50Large.

I think it'd be huge :-)

What's up with that?

Lou Figueroa
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The answer is because there isn't money in pool so these guys don't have a lot of money of their own to use/lose and they can usually find gamblers to back them.

Barton has a business in China where he makes a good profit by paying wages typical of a Communist country where per capita income is less than $1,000 dollars a year and he is a banger so you and your partners took his cash. For Barton is was part stupid idea, part promoting his product and the money he lost didn't put a dent in his pocket.

No offense intended - I'm glad you took his money - but even against a banger like Barton you "incorporated". Explain why you did that and it will answer your question about why the pros do it.
 
lfigueroa said:
My question is pretty simple: What is wrong with the pros that they cannot get their kitty litter in one big bunch and target a challenge to another top player?

For years, JB and I nipped at each other. And when it came down to it, we played a challenge match for $10K. JB put up most of his, I chose to incorporate. But we played, there was anticipation, a stream, lots of viewers.

Why cannot ___________ (insert the player of your choice) come up with the dough to challenge another player for a sizable chunk. And I don't mean the $10K JB and I played for -- why not $25K, $50K, or $100K. (Yes, I know Earl and Efren did that way back when, but I believe a promoter put up the money.)

Certainly, someone must like: JA, RM, DA, MD, SVB, Name Any Filipino, Name Any Chinese Player, Name Any Taiwanese Player, Name Any European MC Player enough to say: I want to play_________ for $50Large.

I think it'd be huge :-)

What's up with that?

Lou Figueroa
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Why gamble! SVB played at least 36 tournaments this year so far? other pros also busy cashing in! i do not think they have time they are probably booked all year long!
 
lfigueroa said:
My question is pretty simple: What is wrong with the pros that they cannot get their kitty litter in one big bunch and target a challenge to another top player?

For years, JB and I nipped at each other. And when it came down to it, we played a challenge match for $10K. JB put up most of his, I chose to incorporate. But we played, there was anticipation, a stream, lots of viewers.

Why cannot ___________ (insert the player of your choice) come up with the dough to challenge another player for a sizable chunk. And I don't mean the $10K JB and I played for -- why not $25K, $50K, or $100K. (Yes, I know Earl and Efren did that way back when, but I believe a promoter put up the money.)

Certainly, someone must like: JA, RM, DA, MD, SVB, Name Any Filipino, Name Any Chinese Player, Name Any Taiwanese Player, Name Any European MC Player enough to say: I want to play_________ for $50Large.

I think it'd be huge :-)

What's up with that?

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

I think they've evolved to the point of trying to find a system where everyone involved gets paid.
 
justadub said:
You're right, I don't agree with you.

I believe the gambling and the money was certainly secondary in this particular instance. A necessary component, to make it "mean something", but the true motivation for this match was the extensive history between these two.

It was put up or shut up.

Fortunately, they both "put up" and neither will "shut up". (Not they either would have, but now there is no need.)

This was a fantastic example of how to promote something, and the drama that went along with it. The problem is, of course, that you can't really script something like Lou and JB's history, so to recreate this event is nigh impossible. Still, the template is obvious. An underlying story, a little bad blood, makes for great theater, as Lou noted.

I'm glad it finally took place. I hope we see more matches like this. I somehow doubt the pro's could put on nearly as good a "show" as this match delivered. The gambling was secondary.
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can i add to this for BRussell?

both parties were so intent, that neither one would EVER conceive of dumping.

that, made it REAL.
 
gatorchad said:
How about an annual ladder competition with a title sponsor and revenue stream from live streaming of matches? Give a bonus to the top player at the end of the year and pay each player a portion of the proceeds from each match. It has the potential to create rivalries and some barking, but eliminates the need for backers and reduces the motivation to "dump" a match.
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Might be tough to do a ladder with everyone so geographically separated.

Lou Figueroa
 
JB Cases said:
I am sure you will be happy to know that Ken Thomason, the former owner of Hard Times in LA, told me at the CSI-BCAPL event that he watched every ball of our match and was fully engrossed the whole time. Even though he has been witness to some of the greatest one pocket the planet has ever seen during the years he owned that iconic room he said that it was thrilling for him to watch us go at it.
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I got that kind of comment from several hardcore 1pocket guys too. Basically it was like they thought they would just tune in for a while and then kept watching. And watching. As it went long they were going for the coffee pot as we went late into the night.

Lou Figueroa
 
BRussell said:
I know most people disagree with me, but I thought your match with JB was ego-driven stupidity, and not in the least bit honorable. It definitely doesn't make me think "why doesn't everyone do this?" More like "Im glad I have more self-control and common sense than these guys."

It was fun to watch, in the same way that people are drawn to car accidents.

I suppose it comes down to your view of gambling. Personally I'm much more interested in tourneys like that World Cup of Pool. Sports not, gambling. I know most people disagree with me, but I think a sizable minority agrees.
Click to expand...


Not every one's cup of tea, no doubt. But face it: pretty much anything anyone does competitively is ego driven. No getting around that.

Lou Figueroa
 
ShootingArts said:
The players need backers. The backers have found other places they would prefer to put their money in action. The pool halls are dead because of an overabundance of real casinos, truck stop casinos, and poker machines in every café. I started to open a café a few years back myself. The café owner's cut of the two poker machines allowed worked out to $30,000 a year. One truck stop opened up with two 250 gallon skid tanks and forty or more poker machines!

Gambling everywhere has killed the 26 BILLION dollar horse racing industry. It is dying a lingering death due to the casinos being forced to subsidize horse racing but the last horse track in New England is shutting down right now. Horse tracks across the country have disappeared and soon there won't be but a handful in the nation once the casinos weasel out of carrying the ones they are carrying.

Big time gambling at pool was just a small unnoticed victim of casino gambling. They have overbuilt until they not only sucked all other gambling into a vacuum, they are now cannibalizing each other. Casinos are starting to fall like dominos. Unfortunately they are tied to politicians and government so we will probably never be rid of them, maybe they will go away right after that temporary tax the yankees started to help win the war of northern aggression!

Hu
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Oh yeah. The casinos opened up around 2000 here and all the pool hall gamblers started giving their monies to the machines and table games instead of each other (at much worse odds). As they all tapped out over the years, many of them went to work for the casinos.

Lou Figueroa
 
Ky Boy said:
The difference is this.

These 2 guys went through all the emotions of this match from the proposal, the woofing, the barking, backing out for whatever reason at least a half dozen times before this match ever came to fruition.

Both of them I am sure would tell you they thought the same thing as you many times. But the constant banter back and forth between the 2 went on for YEARS...not days or even months.

Lou and John's backs were against the wall many times during the course of this "friendly" discussion. But after many years they both decided to get it over with. And now, i see a lighter side to both individuals as of late especially. A mutual respect if you will between the 2 as they can now post in the same thread and without the call to action.

Sometimes, a pissing contest is the only way to settle things. Both of them put it out there and IMO maybe came away from the game a bit better competitively, mentally, and respectfully.

That's just my take anyway...hell, I may piss them both off!! :p
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Kinda of like what Clemenza tells Michael in "The Godfather" about the impending war between the families, when he says something about how it has to happen very so often, to clear the bad blood :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
justadub said:
You're right, I don't agree with you.

I believe the gambling and the money was certainly secondary in this particular instance. A necessary component, to make it "mean something", but the true motivation for this match was the extensive history between these two.

It was put up or shut up.

Fortunately, they both "put up" and neither will "shut up". (Not they either would have, but now there is no need.)

This was a fantastic example of how to promote something, and the drama that went along with it. The problem is, of course, that you can't really script something like Lou and JB's history, so to recreate this event is nigh impossible. Still, the template is obvious. An underlying story, a little bad blood, makes for great theater, as Lou noted.

I'm glad it finally took place. I hope we see more matches like this. I somehow doubt the pro's could put on nearly as good a "show" as this match delivered. The gambling was secondary.
Click to expand...


You are correctomundo, dub -- the money was an integral part of the whole thing but it wasn't the primary driver.

Lou Figueroa
 
alstl said:
The answer is because there isn't money in pool so these guys don't have a lot of money of their own to use/lose and they can usually find gamblers to back them.

Barton has a business in China where he makes a good profit by paying wages typical of a Communist country where per capita income is less than $1,000 dollars a year and he is a banger so you and your partners took his cash. For Barton is was part stupid idea, part promoting his product and the money he lost didn't put a dent in his pocket.

No offense intended - I'm glad you took his money - but even against a banger like Barton you "incorporated". Explain why you did that and it will answer your question about why the pros do it.
Click to expand...


Why did I incorporate? Because I'm a banger too.

In all the years of writing my trip reports, I have always said I'm just an amateur player who likes to play for $20 a game. Occasionally a couple of hundred on a race to four. My stories are always written from the fish-out-of-water perspective, or maybe like George Plimpton's journalist as athlete. I just enjoy a friendly wager and have never been or claimed to be a big gambler. For the money John and I were playing for, streamed live, I wasn't even sure I'd be able to hit the end rail.

Lou Figueroa
 
naji said:
Why gamble! SVB played at least 36 tournaments this year so far? other pros also busy cashing in! i do not think they have time they are probably booked all year long!
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I don't think anyone is too busy to take a shot a serious money. A match only takes a day or three.

Lou Figueroa
 
liakos said:
Personally, I like watching 2 semi-pros like you and John play! You guys make the game much more interesting! Don't get me wrong, I like watching the game played at the highest levels, but I like watching you guys play because the game is much more "real"!
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Did he say semi pro? :eek:
 
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