What is your opinion on Pro players that pattern rack the balls?

J

justinb386

Banned
I think that as good as these top players play (and I am not sure who all out there likes to pattern rack the balls, or if mostly all the players are doing it), it should not be allowed at that high of a level.

Do these elite players really need to pattern rack the balls?

I do not think there is any honor in doing that, for an unfair advantage.

I was just watching this Orcollo match, and the commentator started talking about how Orcollo was racking the balls in the exact same order every time, and all of the layouts were very similar after every break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5CRbIGy5PE

Orcollo played really great, but I think it seemed a little too easy for a player of his level.

I wonder why tournaments allow pattern racking.

I think it should not be allowed (not at a pro level tournament anyways), and if a player is caught doing it, then I think they should get at least some type of penalty (like maybe an automatic loss of that game, or something).

What do you think?

Thanks for any thoughts.
 
I guess the tourney director figures it all evens out if all are allowed to pattern rack?

Probably easier than constantly monitoring against pattern racking.
 
Seems there is a fix, make the referee rack the balls. Dennis did play great, but it was all too predictable and undermines the game IMHO.

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I think that either (1) the rule against pattern racking should be enforced or (2) it should be announced at the players' meeting that the rule against pattern racking is being waived for the event.

I prefer (1).

I do not think that nothing should be said and the rule not enforced. That leaves players who know and strictly follow the rule at a disadvantage to players who either do not know the rule or willfully ignore it knowing that they will not be called on it.
 
Unfair advantage? I don't think so, not when both players are doing it. :rolleyes:

One of the problems with enforcing pattern racking is proving it. You don't have to rack the balls the same way every time. Even if you only know one way, you can rack the opposite pattern every other time and simply break from the other side.

I agree it's against the rules but am not sure how to go about enforcing the rule if the players are involved in racking. It amounts to either the players competing with honor (not gonna happen anytime soon) or providing a neutral racker who will. Ah, there's an idea!
 
Very simple. It is not allowed according to the WPA rules.

2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.
 
Under the current rules, pattern racking and manipulating the gaps (as some players do) are both unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Unfair advantage? I don't think so, not when both players are doing it. :rolleyes:

One of the problems with enforcing pattern racking is proving it. You don't have to rack the balls the same way every time. Even if you only know one way, you can rack the opposite pattern every other time and simply break from the other side.

I agree it's against the rules but am not sure how to go about enforcing the rule if the players are involved in racking. It amounts to either the players competing with honor (not gonna happen anytime soon) or providing a neutral racker who will. Ah, there's an idea!
Click to expand...

So, do you think they do it (and learn and practice doing it) because they think (or know) the other players will be doing it too, or do you think they do it to try to have an advantage? If they think they are the better player, then I do not understand why they feel the need to pattern rack the balls. Does anyone know if Shaw was doing the same thing (pattern racking) on his breaks, or was it just Orcollo? Just curious. I also understand that it takes skill to break the exact same way every time, to get a very similar lay out every time, but why should a player as good as Orcollo feel the need to do it? Will these players do anything (if it is allowed, or not noticed) to win? I remember reading a thread about Corey Deuel, and some really imaginative pattern racking and imaginative breaking that he has done in the past too (in order to have an advantage to win). Just curious why they feel the need to do anything for an advantage to win. I assume that it is just about money, and not caring that you won because you were the best.
 
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I think lately, breaking rules have favored the breaker too much. It's become too common for players to be able to rack for themselves with a template and break where ever they choose. Given the fact that nobody ever gets called out for pattern racking, it's no surprise that everyone is doing it.

In my opinion, there needs to be balance. It should be something like this:

Category A
Rack your own
Magic Rack (any template)
Break from anywhere
Pattern Racking
Winner breaks

Category B
Loser breaks/alternating breaks
Break from the box
Rack with a triangle
Opponent racks
Random order

Not saying this is a perfect solution or that I included all possible variables. I'm just trying to illustrate that oftentimes, we're taking all options from Category A and not from B. It should be a mix.
 
Simple solution: non-racking player sticks all the balls but 1 and 9 into a bag. Racking player pulls them out one at a time and racks right to left (or left to right...doesn't matter as long as it's the same through the whole rack). Both players have the option of inspecting the rack for gaps. Problem solved, and it only takes an extra 20 seconds.

Or whatever...give everyone a pad with 9-ball racks on it. Tear off the top one and that's the one you use. They'd start selling "rack pads", at Seyberts and everyone would buy them.

Or any number of a million other ideas.

If anyone really wanted to do away with it, they could do away with it permanently and quickly.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I think lately, breaking rules have favored the breaker too much. It's become too common for players to be able to rack for themselves with a template and break where ever they choose. Given the fact that nobody ever gets called out for pattern racking, it's no surprise that everyone is doing it.

In my opinion, there needs to be balance. It should be something like this:

Category A
Rack your own
Magic Rack (any template)
Break from anywhere
Pattern Racking
Winner breaks

Category B
Loser breaks/alternating breaks
Break from the box
Rack with a triangle
Opponent racks
Random order

Not saying this is a perfect solution or that I included all possible variables. I'm just trying to illustrate that oftentimes, we're taking all options from Category A and not from B. It should be a mix.
Click to expand...

Option B should the way - and in addition, ref rack instead
They did that at Mosconi events like WCOP and top breakers struggling and falling apart and I love that.
Rack your own is nonsense- the only balls that players should be allowed to touch are their own 2 balls. Period :)
 
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I guess you want people to just rack the balls while blind folded.


So you want to change the rule about putting the one ball up front

and the money ball in the middle? This is pattern racking and a rule.



.
 
spartan said:
Option B should the way - and in addition, ref rack instead
They did that at Mosconi events like WCOP and top breakers struggling and falling apart and I love that.
Rack your own is nonsense- the only balls that players should be allowed to touch are their own 2 balls. Period :)
Click to expand...

I wasn't looking at it like two separate options but instead, two categories. Every time you pick a rule from one category, you should have to pick a non-relevant rule from the other category. Like, you can pattern rack but it can't be winner breaks. Or, you can use templates but you have to break from the box.

EDIT: I want to add, this isn't ala carte rules. I think the TD should review all options and consider a method to insure both players get an opportunity to play in a given set.
 
Rules against pattern racking are impossible to enforce, and therefore should be abandoned.
 
BRussell said:
Rules against pattern racking are impossible to enforce, and therefore should be abandoned.
Click to expand...

That is part of the problem. Those that pattern rack are going to rack favorably for themselves or they're going to rack unfavorably for their opponents. Pick your poison.

I think some of the problems could be solved if there were some standards like, the 2 and 3 must:

1. sit directly behind the 1-ball (makes it easy for everyone)

2. sit in the same row as the 9-ball (makes it unpredictable for everyone)
 
poolguy4u said:
.
I guess you want people to just rack the balls while blind folded.
So you want to change the rule about putting the one ball up front
and the money ball in the middle? This is pattern racking and a rule..
Click to expand...
I think you need to read the rules.
 
poolguy4u said:
.


I guess you want people to just rack the balls while blind folded.


So you want to change the rule about putting the one ball up front

and the money ball in the middle? This is pattern racking and a rule.



.
Click to expand...

All of the balls should be racked randomly, other then the 1 up front and the 9 in the middle. At the pro level, I think any type of non random racking should not be allowed. A really good 3rd party racker would make things the most fair I think.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I wasn't looking at it like two separate options but instead, two categories. Every time you pick a rule from one category, you should have to pick a non-relevant rule from the other category. Like, you can pattern rack but it can't be winner breaks. Or, you can use templates but you have to break from the box.

EDIT: I want to add, this isn't ala carte rules. I think the TD should review all options and consider a method to insure both players get an opportunity to play in a given set.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was thinking that if pattern racking is allowed, then they should be alternating breaks. Orcollo was getting good layouts after all of his breaks, and they all seemed to be very similar. It just seemed wrong to me. Orcollo is one of the very best in the world. He should not need to be pattern racking.
 
BRussell said:
Rules against pattern racking are impossible to enforce, and therefore should be abandoned.
Click to expand...

Okay, so then start making it fair for both players, and play alternate breaks at the pro level. Pattern racking is not a big deal if alternating breaks. Either that, or have a 3rd party rack the balls.
 
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