What makes cues from purchased blanks sell for big $$$$

ridewiththewind said:
As a full splice fanatic...when I see a FS that a maker has posted an example of, I will contact them inquiring as to pricing, and then I will always ask if the blank in made 'in-house', or is it a pre-made blank.

I ask, because I want to know going in what to expect. As far as playability goes, I believe that is up to the 'tweaks' a maker makes to the cue, and not necessarily determined by which type of blank was used. However, the type of blank used can be a determining factor for me with regards to pricing. Obviously, if the maker has crafted the blank 'in-house', I am going to be willing to pay out more dollars to help offset the additional time/labor and materials waste involved in crafting such a blank....providing the quality is there.

While I do believe that cue makers and secondary sellers should be more forthcoming, I also believe that when it comes to this type of cue, the prospective buyer needs to learn to ask the right questions. The responsibility lies on both sides of the fence.

With regards to the actual question at hand...I believe the pricing, at least on the secondary, has to do with the cue maker's name, hype, and demand. Once you get a buying frenzy happening with certain maker's cues, people do not care how it was made or what is was made of, they just have to get one in their hot little hands...and are willing to pay top dollar to do so. It doesn't have to make sense, it just is what it is.

Lisa


I also must agree wholeheartedly with this post.

I guess we will have to agree to agree on this one! Thanks for chiming in!
 
This Thread

I am withdrawing from the forum for a while because of this thread and a few others lately...I will be lurking for a while...just reading. I think the economy has got people going crazy already!

People just need to stop hating...find other ways to spend their time. Cuemakers that are haters because they make things that people do not want to buy need to just get back to the drawing board and make something people want to spend their hard earned money on; innovate or hang it up and sell your stock.

manwon said:
Joey, thanks for your opinion, I was unsure where this would fit, I am sorry for causing you any trouble. This is actually a review of cues, and their prices all this information is on topic. In addition, thanks for your opinion on this subject, I just hope those who are commanding those high dollars continue to do so. Because, like I said before if they are getting a $1000 for Sneakies, they had better build some true Master Pieces if they expect to sell their cues for much more in the future.

Take care Joey!!!!:smile:
 
manwon said:
Well, I have been trying to avoid the forums due to the "flaming" & "cut-throat" atmosphere. This site is diving pretty fast. It's disgusting.

First let me say, as I have said over and over and over again this is not about you personally it was a general question and your cue was just an example. I also agree that there is a great deal of Disgusting behavior that has occurred over the last year here some of it deserved and some not. But, as for as the site diving, I disagree in fact I think that this site looks out for it members more than any other, and unity is what makes this site strong.

That said, I guess I can give some insight to the cue in question. The blank is a Schmelke blank. I cut it to size taking in the neighborhood of 12 cuts, recentering & other tricks as needed to get the points close to even. I made two shafts & made nice rings that all line up, even on the 2 shafts when assembled. My shaft wood isn't cheap & it's not of poor quality seen on many sneakies. The cue was as good as any cue I was building at the time, and I got paid a whopping $350. It came back some years later & I basically rebuilt it from bare blank again, new joint pin, new shafts, new rings & collars, new finish. So now it's as good as any cue I build currently. If I use a Titleist cue to convert, when complete is it a brand new Sugartree? Yes. So if I take an old Sugartree & convert then when complete it's a brand new Sugartree again. Seems pretty simple to me.


When was the cue made?


Only a very few cuemakers in history, less than can be counted on one hand, have built sneaky style cues so high quality that in their lifetime they can see the cues being resold in the secondary market for $1000+. I am very, very proud & honored to be one of these guys. There are names much bigger than mine that have not acheived this, so "hype" hardly plays a role. Hype fades very fast. Quality never dies. So to answer the question at hand, "why do certain cues sell for higher prices than others?", well it's pretty easy. They simply are better cues. There it is from the horse's mouth. Read into it as much as you like, but really, it's that simple.

Thanks for your explanation, and it certainly makes sense to me that Quality Never Dies. But to say that hype hardly plays a role is not factual, and to also say that buyers are well educated in most cases is also not true. But that is not the point, the real point is the inflation of the market, and I know you also understand that is true. When Sneakies sell for such a price what will the same cue maker have to build to make more money and why would they want to in the first place. If some one can get $1000 for sneaky, why not just build them, it makes sense that if the market is that receptive to a cue makers work that store bought blanks sell for that much. The problem I see is that by not regulating the market in the long run it will be harder and harder for a cue maker to compete and it will create more problems than solutions. I know you may not agree, but these are my thoughts.

I'm not arrogant, nor am I humble. I'm real. I see it clear & call it as I see it. So don't go calling cue buyers ignorant & saying they need educated. They know as much about cues as we builders do. It's cues, not rocket science. It's not exactly a mystery why some are better or some more expensive or some more sought after. But hey, thanks for ruining my moment. I was almost about to feel good about my accomplishments. I'm sure glad that didn't happen. Heaven forbid a cuemaker ever get to enjoy his success.


I totally disagree with the above in Red, in most cases buyers need a great deal of education. I see it every day when they walk into my retail store, and ask questions. What I also see is that players that have a strong game also do not know in most cases anything more than how they want something to feel. Like I said this thread is not about you, however, if you think you are that important, and that everything is about you, that is only something you can correct. From personal experience, another person could never ruin a moment I have worked hard for, I have never been concerned about what others say, I am not thin skinned. So please do not try and make this about me or anyone except yourself if you really feel that way. When some one asks a question, I do not get the problem with just giving an answer, and this happens here all the time. I am certainly not trying to take away your thunder, you have built a great following that I am sure you deserve so be real like you say you are.

Take Care[/QUOTE]
I didn't think we were talking about somebody walking in off the street into a RETAIL STORE. I seriously doubt you have any Searing, Szam, TS, or ST sneakies in your retail store. But feel free to make your point however you see fit. If the person doesn't know the difference between Players & Mcdermott or meucci then I seriously doubt they will be buying a high end sneakie. I think you can save your time on "educating" them on your expert opinion.
 
paulybatz said:
I am withdrawing from the forum for a while because of this thread and a few others lately...I will be lurking for a while...just reading. I think the economy has got people going crazy already!

People just need to stop hating...find other ways to spend their time. Cuemakers that are haters because they make things that people do not want to buy need to just get back to the drawing board and make something people want to spend their hard earned money on; innovate or hang it up and sell your stock.

That is certainly you choice, but are people crazy? I don't know for certain, who the real crazy people are.

There is a difference between hating and speaking the truth, and it has nothing to do with anyone person. You and many others have tried to assert that this thread is about a single person and it has never been. In addition it also has nothing to do with jealousy in any way shape or form. It is in my opinion and the opinion of many others that this is a common sense issue, if you can't see what my true intent is so be it.

Oh and by the way, the real problem maybe is with your thoughts on this subject, I can't say for sure, that is only a question that you can answer for yourself.

Have fun lurking, and a great day!!
 
Last edited:
The one point that few seem to get is it take more than wood & metal to make a Cue that Plays Good, & Stay Straight.

It take time, skill, macjenery, and in some case people who are in the biz because they love what they do, and could be making BIG BUCK in the Private or Public Sector with a Job with Benefits, Retirements, etc.
 
jasonlaus said:
[/B]

I didn't think we were talking about somebody walking in off the street into a RETAIL STORE. I seriously doubt you have any Searing, Szam, TS, or ST sneakies in your retail store. But feel free to make your point however you see fit. If the person doesn't know the difference between Players & Mcdermott or meucci then I seriously doubt they will be buying a high end sneakie. I think you can save your time on "educating" them on your expert opinion.



Thanks for your opinion and for posting to this thread, HOWEVER IT IS ALSO OBVIOUS YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO MY RETAIL STORE.;) For your information, I have cues for sale from $50 to $3000 on a daily basis, I don't However, have any Szam or Searings currently but you never know. I normally have around $30,000 to $40,000 in inventory, but that fluctuates because I have a large number of Custom and production line cues come through my hands.

I am certainly not an expert, I am a student and I do a great deal of research. I also am allowed to have an opinion on a subject, just like you and everyone else. I mean you can buy all the $1000 Sneakies on the market, like I tell people every day if they feel good to you, and you play well with them, thats all that matters.

Good luck, and stop by some time you may be surprised what is here for sale!!!!;)
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
The one point that few seem to get is it take more than wood & metal to make a Cue that Plays Good, & Stay Straight.

It take time, skill, macjenery, and in some case people who are in the biz because they love what they do, and could be making BIG BUCK in the Private or Public Sector with a Job with Benefits, Retirements, etc.

You may certainly be right Partner, I never thought about it that way!!

Thanks for the idea:wink:
 
manwon said:
You may certainly be right Partner, I never thought about it that way!!

Thanks for the idea:wink:

Are you getting Rick with that Pool Room/Cue Repair/Building BIZ? How would that be working out if you had to Pay for Medical, Dental, Prescriptions, Optical if you were totally self employeed. With no USA Pension?:smile:
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
Are you getting Rick with that Pool Room/Cue Repair/Building BIZ? How would that be working out if you had to Pay for Medical, Dental, Prescriptions, Optical if you were totally self employeed. With no USA Pension?:smile:

Cowboy, that has nothing to do it, we all makes choices at some point in our life. Some people have taken the course where they will work until death and never be able to retire. Others make different choices, and plan their entire life for retirement at an early age. Anyone can do that if they make the correct choices, just like almost anyone can join the Military to get the Benefits you have outlined above. It is all a personal choice Cowboy, you certainly can't always have your cake and also get to enjoy eating it. Everyone earns what they have in life do to their own decisions, good or bad, rich or poor. The secret to being a success at anything you do, is first enjoying it, second to never stop working toward bettering yourself, because you can always improve yourself, and third never be afraid to take calculated risks.

In addition to the above, and most importantly you must believe in yourself. To do this you must practice what you preach, and do the things you know are right. Regardless what others tell you or say about you, because people will try to keep you from succeeding, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY ARE YOUR FRIENDS. They do this in many cases because they do not want you to succeed and move ahead of them.

In the end confidantes, conviction, and inner strength are what allow some to make successful decisions and others to take advantage of situations that ultimately lead to failure in all they do.

Take Care Cowboy!!!! Thanks for your thoughts:smile:
 
manwon said:
Obviously PERCEIVED value is a big factor. What you have to realize is that this is ALMOST ALWAYS a matter of opinion without all of the knowledge and information. I do not believe that ANYBODY is above this influence in at least some ways

I totally agree with everything written in the above paragraph, except what is in Red. Many are above this influence and they are generally collectors who do the proper research so they don't come up short. But in reality anyone can do this, especially with the INTERNET today, and through education much can be changed.

I personally feel that there is a lot more to making a quality cue than just what goes into making the blank. I think you can have two cuemakers start with the same blank and the end result will be dramatically different. Just as 2 cuemakers can start with the same hunk of wood and end up with 2 dramatically different products.

I don't really agree with you here for the following reasons. In most cases a cue price is based more on the labor involved in making it than the materials that are used. If you are buying pre-made parts and assembling a product logically the man hours / labor are drastically reduced which in turn should also the reduce the items cost by a large amount.

I say that yes, you do pay for a name! A name ABSOLUTELY has value. Sometimes that value is deserved, and sometimes it is not. That is where knowledge of construction and experience in the cue market comes in. Be honest, if I see you in a pool hall, and I tell you I am trying to sell 2 cues, one is a mcdermott and the other is a southwest. You will have an opinion and an expectation before I even pull them out of the case. A name on a cue does represent something. The reputation of that maker is huge, and adds value. Never mind that the SW was left out in the rain for a month, and sombody spray painted it pink. Right or wrong, you had a


While names certainly have value, I am under the opinion that they should not. I really do not care if you play with a Kmart special or a Balabushka what is good for you may not be good for me. This is the biggest factor most people do not understand, and this is what I equate to a lack of education on the part of a buyers more than anything else.

Thanks very much for your thoughts on this subject!!




Okay, first off my saying that I do not believe that ANYBODY is completely above the influence of a name ( as in branding) , I was making a general comment. This was meant to apply to everyone in every situation. I mean when shopping for cars, clothes, jewelry, etc. NOT JUST CUES. So no, I do not believe that you can HONESTLY say that marketing, or reputation of a product or name NEVER affects your buying decisions EVER. If you try to tell me otherwise, you will lose a bunch of credability with me. You are obviously very well informed about cues, so your knowledge of them comes from first hand experience and thorough knowledge of construction methods that your average cue buyer does not have. You are in a position to really know which names are worth every penny and then some, and some that may not represent the best value. Keeping in mind how much time it takes to acquire this much knowledge in a specific area means that you couldn't possibly have as deep of knowledge and experience in EVERY item that you buy. In these other cases you would have to rely on the reputaion as given to you by other with more knowledge than you. This is a smart approach when you lack first hand experience. In this respect, I will again say that you are not 100 percent above the influence of branding or reputation in at least some way. You should not fault others for being subject to it. The answer to ignorance is education. Simply share your knowledge and experience with others so they have a better chance of making an informed decision.

I have a very good knowledge of guitars. If you were considering buying your first guitar, you could ask me what to look for, and what is really worth the money or not. In absence of real first hand knowledge you could rely on my experience to help guide you in the right direction. The real problem comes when you go into the store to buy it and the guy there tells you the complete oppisite, now what? The point again is that it is still largely just a MATTER OF OPINION. Who is to say my opinion is any more or less valid than the other guys? This is really the main reason you should not pay top pf the line prices when you are unsure of what you are buying. It is not a question of quality but preference. You may find after a while that another product would suit YOUR needs better. Again this is not an issue of quality. It is like arguing red is better than blue!

I think it is odd that you say names should not have any value, and that it does not matter what you choose as long as it is right for you, while criticizing the pricing of cues. What if a $2000 sneaky pete is what I feel is the best cue for me? You say that you carry cues from $100- 3000, does a name matter at all? If I can go into your store and find a $2000 cue that is at all similar to a $300 cue, will you sell it to me for $300? I doubt it? Why don't you price all of your cues strictly by the construction methods used and the time spent making them? I find it VERY odd that someone is in the retail business and does not think that brand name has ANY value! If I want to order a cue that you do not have in stock, will you tell me to wait untill it arrives so you can evaluate it on its own individual merits and price it accordingly? Or will you RELY on the REPUTATION of the NAME of the cuemaker and say that you can confidently recomend this cue at your fair selling price?

On the same token, if I come into your store with a cue case and say I am looking to sell a cue, wouldn't the most logical FIRST question you will ask is "what kind of cue is it?". Not " how was the blank made?". You obviously buy many cues. Your whosale prices will vary greatly depending on the manufacturer. So YOU ARE paying for a name. You will pay more for a cue that says Schon, then for one that says lucasi. Right or wrong the market value is higher for schons.

Are you still going to stand by your statement that brand names have NO VALUE?
 
poolpro said:
Okay, first off my saying that I do not believe that ANYBODY is completely above the influence of a name ( as in branding) , I was making a general comment. This was meant to apply to everyone in every situation. I mean when shopping for cars, clothes, jewelry, etc. NOT JUST CUES. So no, I do not believe that you can HONESTLY say that marketing, or reputation of a product or name NEVER affects your buying decisions EVER. If you try to tell me otherwise, you will lose a bunch of credability with me. You are obviously very well informed about cues, so your knowledge of them comes from first hand experience and thorough knowledge of construction methods that your average cue buyer does not have. You are in a position to really know which names are worth every penny and then some, and some that may not represent the best value. Keeping in mind how much time it takes to acquire this much knowledge in a specific area means that you couldn't possibly have as deep of knowledge and experience in EVERY item that you buy. In these other cases you would have to rely on the reputaion as given to you by other with more knowledge than you. This is a smart approach when you lack first hand experience. In this respect, I will again say that you are not 100 percent above the influence of branding or reputation in at least some way. You should not fault others for being subject to it. The answer to ignorance is education. Simply share your knowledge and experience with others so they have a better chance of making an informed decision.

I have a very good knowledge of guitars. If you were considering buying your first guitar, you could ask me what to look for, and what is really worth the money or not. In absence of real first hand knowledge you could rely on my experience to help guide you in the right direction. The real problem comes when you go into the store to buy it and the guy there tells you the complete oppisite, now what? The point again is that it is still largely just a MATTER OF OPINION. Who is to say my opinion is any more or less valid than the other guys? This is really the main reason you should not pay top pf the line prices when you are unsure of what you are buying. It is not a question of quality but preference. You may find after a while that another product would suit YOUR needs better. Again this is not an issue of quality. It is like arguing red is better than blue!

I think it is odd that you say names should not have any value, and that it does not matter what you choose as long as it is right for you, while criticizing the pricing of cues. What if a $2000 sneaky pete is what I feel is the best cue for me? You say that you carry cues from $100- 3000, does a name matter at all? If I can go into your store and find a $2000 cue that is at all similar to a $300 cue, will you sell it to me for $300? I doubt it? Why don't you price all of your cues strictly by the construction methods used and the time spent making them? I find it VERY odd that someone is in the retail business and does not think that brand name has ANY value! If I want to order a cue that you do not have in stock, will you tell me to wait untill it arrives so you can evaluate it on its own individual merits and price it accordingly? Or will you RELY on the REPUTATION of the NAME of the cuemaker and say that you can confidently recomend this cue at your fair selling price?

On the same token, if I come into your store with a cue case and say I am looking to sell a cue, wouldn't the most logical FIRST question you will ask is "what kind of cue is it?". Not " how was the blank made?". You obviously buy many cues. Your whosale prices will vary greatly depending on the manufacturer. So YOU ARE paying for a name. You will pay more for a cue that says Schon, then for one that says lucasi. Right or wrong the market value is higher for schons.

Are you still going to stand by your statement that brand names have NO VALUE?



I think it is odd that you say names should not have any value, and that it does not matter what you choose as long as it is right for you, while criticizing the pricing of cues. What if a $2000 sneaky pete is what I feel is the best cue for me? You say that you carry cues from $100- 3000, does a name matter at all? If I can go into your store and find a $2000 cue that is at all similar to a $300 cue, will you sell it to me for $300? I doubt it? Why don't you price all of your cues strictly by the construction methods used and the time spent making them? I find it VERY odd that someone is in the retail business and does not think that brand name has ANY value! If I want to order a cue that you do not have in stock, will you tell me to wait untill it arrives so you can evaluate it on its own individual merits and price it accordingly? Or will you RELY on the REPUTATION of the NAME of the cuemaker and say that you can confidently recomend this cue at your fair selling price?

First, I do not believe that names mean anything when buying pool cues. In my opinion a cue must be right for each person, and no one can say what is good or bad for you or me. When I sell cues I give my buyers all the information they need to make an informed purchase. In addition I answer any question they have or find the answer for them, as part of the deal. I also let each person test all cues before purchase and this is where what I said about a cue being right for each person comes into play. I really do not care who the cue maker is or whether a cue is production or custom NO Cue Maker CAN BUILD CUES THAT ALL HIT EXACTLY THE SAME. In additional to that each person has their preference to hit, balance, weight, and all other things that attract people to certain cues.

I said to me name doesn't matter, in fact it has no influence in what I like in a cue. For many however, name is all they have to go by, and the problem with that is what I have said in the above paragraph. Now like you said above Guitars are what you have the most knowledge about. On that same note should a Chinese mass produced model of an American made Guitar sell for the same price of an Original completely crafted by a Luthier? Should a Guitar assembled form parts that are purchased be equally expensive? Now buying a Guitar assembled from premade parts by a quality maker may be OK, I do not know. But making a blank that cues are produced from will have a lasting effect on the cue that can not be changed very much, especially with Full Spliced Blanks. They can be cored, they can be cosmetically perfected (Making the points Even), and they can have the balance adjusted according to the Cue Makers taste. But, most of these are things that are expected even on a lower end cue, and they are not secret or special techniques that only certain people can do. So at least with cue blanks, blanks are just blanks, some are good and some are not. However, by using them a cue maker can reduce the costs associated with building a cue, and now the real question is, should they cost the same as a cue built entirely by the cue maker, I think not. However, there are certainly exceptions and those would be the Masters that we have in this country and some abroad. People have mentioned Gina, Szamboti, Searing, Hailey, Scruggs and some others who have been involved with cue making for more than 30 years, and that is very hard to argue with. But, everyone can not and will not make it to the above level in their individual life time, do to thier individual skills. This must be taken into account, and only this should increase the value of a simple Sneaky. But the truth is many buyers do not have the information they need to understand this so they base their opinion solely on marketing and hear say which in most cases is greatly nothing but hype, or personal opinion.

When a customer comes in to my store and wants something ordered that is not in stock or something special they must pay in advance. In this case their payment is not refundable because they decide they do not like the cue when it arrives, unless I can return it to the manufacturer. In most cases if the cue was customized for the customer, such as, Shaft diameter, butt diameter, or even a non-standard wrap they can not be returned. They are told this up front and they must sign an agreement to this end. I have learned to protect myself, because people change their minds, because the cue is not exactly what they expected because of what they were told, or what they beleived to be a fact. This is why I try to have customers buy cues currently in stock, and not order cues, but I give them this information and it is their choice.

I let the cue maker make all decisions on the price of their items. I buy wholesale and sell retail, with a provided margin from my wholesale supplier. I will not do business with production cue manufacturers that do not wholesale at 50% of retail, and this gives me a maximum 50% profit margin which is never met. Normally, I price these cues at a 20% discount from the get go, which means I settle for a 30% take before the government gets their 30% of that. Now the margin on Custom cues is very much more from maker to maker, and yes names play a part in the cues retail cost and in the wholesale price I pay. But none of this is the real point, which I have been trying to explain. I have talked with many of top end cue makers, and most have a simple goal, which is to make sure their cues only increase in value and that their customers always get more than they paid for, Never less.

On the same token, if I come into your store with a cue case and say I am looking to sell a cue, wouldn't the most logical FIRST question you will ask is "what kind of cue is it?". Not " how was the blank made?". You obviously buy many cues. Your whosale prices will vary greatly depending on the manufacturer. So YOU ARE paying for a name. You will pay more for a cue that says Schon, then for one that says lucasi. Right or wrong the market value is higher for schons.

First let me say this, if some one walks into my store to sell me a cue and I do not know them or personally know who referred them they will leave with that cue. I do not buy cues that could be stolen, to me it is not worth the trouble and my reputation is far more valuable than a quick profit. Next, if I know the cue is stolen, it will not leave my possession until the rightful owner comes for it, and the person who brought in will get nothing for it except an escort to the door. As for the blank, it is my job to know what a cues value is and how it was made. In most cases I can do this because I handle cues every day, however, when my experience will not give me the answers I need I have those who I can trust to help me out.


Are you still going to stand by your statement that brand names have NO VALUE

Let me say this, every cue maker makes good and not so good cues. If you go off brand alone with no other knowledge and with without hands on experience of the cue you are looking at in a case or online, brand certainly means nothing. Because until you get it in your hands, you will not know if it is just right for you, or if you think it is turd. So, yes in this respect Brand names mean nothing!!

I hope I answered most of your questions, if not outline what I have missed.

Thanks Craig!!!!!!
 
manwon said:
Cowboy, that has nothing to do it, we all makes choices at some point in our life. Some people have taken the course where they will work until death and never be able to retire. Others make different choices, and plan their entire life for retirement at an early age. Anyone can do that if they make the correct choices, just like almost anyone can join the Military to get the Benefits you have outlined above. It is all a personal choice Cowboy, you certainly can't always have your cake and also get to enjoy eating it. Everyone earns what they have in life do to their own decisions, good or bad, rich or poor. The secret to being a success at anything you do, is first enjoying it, second to never stop working toward bettering yourself, because you can always improve yourself, and third never be afraid to take calculated risks.

In addition to the above, and most importantly you must believe in yourself. To do this you must practice what you preach, and do the things you know are right. Regardless what others tell you or say about you, because people will try to keep you from succeeding, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY ARE YOUR FRIENDS. They do this in many cases because they do not want you to succeed and move ahead of them.

In the end confidantes, conviction, and inner strength are what allow some to make successful decisions and others to take advantage of situations that ultimately lead to failure in all they do.

Take Care Cowboy!!!! Thanks for your thoughts:smile:

Bottom line is when those "choices" don't pay the bill, it is time for another choice, no matter how much you lov what you are doing.
 
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