What makes cues from purchased blanks sell for big $$$$
- Thread starter manwon
- Start date
Retail1LO said:*shrug* 4 point cues with inlays...aren't for everyone.Sometimes less is more. And...these cues have had PLENTY of resale.
What I believe that Joe is trying to say here is that, with a very few rare exceptions, there is really but only so high that a 4 point non-veneered full splice's value can go...the rest is merely inflated pricing. When the dust settles, there is a certain self-adjustment of real market value...and it may be much less than the cue sold for while the rush was on.
There is currently an ST listed at $1200...this is for a non-veneered 4 point FS cue...and the odds are pretty good that it is from a pre-made blank...and for a used cue! Once the dust settles on the current craze for ST cues, I do not honestly believe that the same cue will hold that kind of value...even if the blank was crafted 'in-house'.
For anywhere from the same amount of money to a few hundred more, you can pick up a nice used 4 point veneered cue, with wrap and often nice inlays...from makers long established and respected in the industry, whose real market value has remained very consistent throughout the years...and are very likely to continue to do so.
It is not about 'less is more', it's about what one should realistically expect with regards to just how high a value a wrapless 4 point non-veneered full splice, sans inlays of any sort, can attain and maintain over the long haul.
It's all about what it is you are actually getting for the amount of money you are spending.
I can tell you this...I have a wrapless 4 point non-veneered FS cue in a wood you will likely not see many more, if any of, from a blank crafted by the maker, whose total output since starting I bet is still less than ST, that looks and plays every bit as good, if not better, with two shafts. I would have a serious struggle with my conscious if I were to ask $1200 for it...not that I would ever sell mine. But I bet that if I did, someone would pay for it. I just have a real problem making money off of the maker's labors, simply because I was fortunate enough to have acquired one.
I just think that some of the pricing on some of these cues is bordering the ridiculous.
Lisa
manwon said:
My comments are above in red. To elaborate on my first position:
I think good, competent cuemakers can turn most blanks, whether it be a house cue cut off, or a schmelke or davis or whatever blank, into a well playing cue. They may or may not work with each customer on all the details, shaft diameter, shaft weight, balance point, blah, blah, ad nauseum until the job is done.
I think great cuemakers, the ones who command top dollar go well beyond what is required to make a good cue. Their attention to detail is bordering on OCD. The craftsmanship is superb, not just really good. Their integrity in their cues is unwavering. You don't ask for a southwest with your taper, you ask for another cue with a southwest taper. These people have put in the work to make their cues play a certain way, you either like it or you don't. They're consistently superb cues in whatever niche they are servicing. Joel Hercek in full splice cues. Black Boar in absolutely amazing inlays. Bill Schick with beautiful scrimshaws. Their execution is just head and shoulders over most other cuemakers in the business. There is a reason that the demand is overshadowing the supply.
You said that the Sugartree cue example was not important, which is a good thing because I have never seen one of Eric's cues, and can't tell you if he fits this mold, however, there has to be a reason for that demand to exceed the supply. No cue is going to fit perfectly in every players hands, you just want it to feel good in a bunch of their hands.
Time will bring out the flaws in everything. If there is a false market, it will crash, just look at real estate. If you are able to look at yourself in the mirror every morning and know that how you're pricing your cues is right, then that's all that really matters. If you are being hounded for orders and you can't keep up, and you see that your cues are being sold right after you deliver them for twice what you are selling them for, you might want to think about raising your prices.
I wish you all the luck in the world with your search for the reasoning.
Retail1LO said:*shrug* 4 point cues with inlays...aren't for everyone.
Sure.. in a very short timespan... The only SP that has done well over time is Timmy Scruggs. The reason for this I believe is he is a legendary cuemaker.
Of course he doesn't have a very neat slogan.. but maybe we can help him out there... Play with a Scruggs and get plenty of hugs...
JV
Well, I have been trying to avoid the forums due to the "flaming" & "cut-throat" atmosphere. This site is diving pretty fast. It's disgusting.
That said, I guess I can give some insight to the cue in question. The blank is a Schmelke blank. I cut it to size taking in the neighborhood of 12 cuts, recentering & other tricks as needed to get the points close to even. I made two shafts & made nice rings that all line up, even on the 2 shafts when assembled. My shaft wood isn't cheap & it's not of poor quality seen on many sneakies. The cue was as good as any cue I was building at the time, and I got paid a whopping $350. It came back some years later & I basically rebuilt it from bare blank again, new joint pin, new shafts, new rings & collars, new finish. So now it's as good as any cue I build currently. If I use a Titleist cue to convert, when complete is it a brand new Sugartree? Yes. So if I take an old Sugartree & convert then when complete it's a brand new Sugartree again. Seems pretty simple to me.
Only a very few cuemakers in history, less than can be counted on one hand, have built sneaky style cues so high quality that in their lifetime they can see the cues being resold in the secondary market for $1000+. I am very, very proud & honored to be one of these guys. There are names much bigger than mine that have not acheived this, so "hype" hardly plays a role. Hype fades very fast. Quality never dies. So to answer the question at hand, "why do certain cues sell for higher prices than others?", well it's pretty easy. They simply are better cues. There it is from the horse's mouth. Read into it as much as you like, but really, it's that simple.
I'm not arrogant, nor am I humble. I'm real. I see it clear & call it as I see it. So don't go calling cue buyers ignorant & saying they need educated. They know as much about cues as we builders do. It's cues, not rocket science. It's not exactly a mystery why some are better or some more expensive or some more sought after. But hey, thanks for ruining my moment. I was almost about to feel good about my accomplishments. I'm sure glad that didn't happen. Heaven forbid a cuemaker ever get to enjoy his success.
That said, I guess I can give some insight to the cue in question. The blank is a Schmelke blank. I cut it to size taking in the neighborhood of 12 cuts, recentering & other tricks as needed to get the points close to even. I made two shafts & made nice rings that all line up, even on the 2 shafts when assembled. My shaft wood isn't cheap & it's not of poor quality seen on many sneakies. The cue was as good as any cue I was building at the time, and I got paid a whopping $350. It came back some years later & I basically rebuilt it from bare blank again, new joint pin, new shafts, new rings & collars, new finish. So now it's as good as any cue I build currently. If I use a Titleist cue to convert, when complete is it a brand new Sugartree? Yes. So if I take an old Sugartree & convert then when complete it's a brand new Sugartree again. Seems pretty simple to me.
Only a very few cuemakers in history, less than can be counted on one hand, have built sneaky style cues so high quality that in their lifetime they can see the cues being resold in the secondary market for $1000+. I am very, very proud & honored to be one of these guys. There are names much bigger than mine that have not acheived this, so "hype" hardly plays a role. Hype fades very fast. Quality never dies. So to answer the question at hand, "why do certain cues sell for higher prices than others?", well it's pretty easy. They simply are better cues. There it is from the horse's mouth. Read into it as much as you like, but really, it's that simple.
I'm not arrogant, nor am I humble. I'm real. I see it clear & call it as I see it. So don't go calling cue buyers ignorant & saying they need educated. They know as much about cues as we builders do. It's cues, not rocket science. It's not exactly a mystery why some are better or some more expensive or some more sought after. But hey, thanks for ruining my moment. I was almost about to feel good about my accomplishments. I'm sure glad that didn't happen. Heaven forbid a cuemaker ever get to enjoy his success.
Jazz said:
Sure, but DS has not been around as long as Timmy, his SP's benefit because he builds a great cue REGARDLESS of the design. So his SP's do well as would Barry Szamboti's if he built them.
That is why I used TS as an example, in fact IMHO and speaking from as historical point, his were the first to start getting first, 350, then 450, and even getting to 600 or so.
Hey, it's all the same to me, I use the fact that SP's sell for that kind of money to sell other cues. If someone wants to buy a ST for 1200, that is great for the market. It boosts the price of every other custom cue, for the most part. Think about it, $ 1200 for a SP, that IMHO makes a Bushka or Szamboti worth a lot more than it was yesterday.
JV
shakes said:
If there is a false market, it will crash, just look at real estate. If you are able to look at yourself in the mirror every morning and know that how you're pricing your cues is right, then that's all that really matters
First let me say thank you very much for your thoughts and your input to this thread. On the topic of a false market though it already exists, and the type of cues I have out lined are the ones being the hardest hit in this current market, and it will only get worst. When a simple Sneaky is selling for the price of Black, Scruggs, of many other cues completely made by cue makers. I truly feel sorry for the people buying these cues, because they are certainly not the collectors. Serious collectors would not touch cues like these with a ten foot pole on that is certainly a fact that can be proved. But, I know to some that is not important, and I suppose in the end if you are happy with anything you purchased that is all that matters.
As for looking in the Mirror and living with what you see, this should be the standard, I completely agree. However, it is not the standard that most use when running a business, but to many, like others have said riding the wave as long as possible is all that is important. That is the difference between the Great cue makers who insure that the customer never looses on a cue, and others who's only focus is the money they can get while it lasts, with no concern for the customer after the sale.
qbilder said:
Well, I have been trying to avoid the forums due to the "flaming" & "cut-throat" atmosphere. This site is diving pretty fast. It's disgusting.
First let me say, as I have said over and over and over again this is not about you personally it was a general question and your cue was just an example. I also agree that there is a great deal of Disgusting behavior that has occurred over the last year here some of it deserved and some not. But, as for as the site diving, I disagree in fact I think that this site looks out for it members more than any other, and unity is what makes this site strong.
That said, I guess I can give some insight to the cue in question. The blank is a Schmelke blank. I cut it to size taking in the neighborhood of 12 cuts, recentering & other tricks as needed to get the points close to even. I made two shafts & made nice rings that all line up, even on the 2 shafts when assembled. My shaft wood isn't cheap & it's not of poor quality seen on many sneakies. The cue was as good as any cue I was building at the time, and I got paid a whopping $350. It came back some years later & I basically rebuilt it from bare blank again, new joint pin, new shafts, new rings & collars, new finish. So now it's as good as any cue I build currently. If I use a Titleist cue to convert, when complete is it a brand new Sugartree? Yes. So if I take an old Sugartree & convert then when complete it's a brand new Sugartree again. Seems pretty simple to me.
When was the cue made?
Only a very few cuemakers in history, less than can be counted on one hand, have built sneaky style cues so high quality that in their lifetime they can see the cues being resold in the secondary market for $1000+. I am very, very proud & honored to be one of these guys. There are names much bigger than mine that have not acheived this, so "hype" hardly plays a role. Hype fades very fast. Quality never dies. So to answer the question at hand, "why do certain cues sell for higher prices than others?", well it's pretty easy. They simply are better cues. There it is from the horse's mouth. Read into it as much as you like, but really, it's that simple.
Thanks for your explanation, and it certainly makes sense to me that Quality Never Dies. But to say that hype hardly plays a role is not factual, and to also say that buyers are well educated in most cases is also not true. But that is not the point, the real point is the inflation of the market, and I know you also understand that is true. When Sneakies sell for such a price what will the same cue maker have to build to make more money and why would they want to in the first place. If some one can get $1000 for sneaky, why not just build them, it makes sense that if the market is that receptive to a cue makers work that store bought blanks sell for that much. The problem I see is that by not regulating the market in the long run it will be harder and harder for a cue maker to compete and it will create more problems than solutions. I know you may not agree, but these are my thoughts.
I'm not arrogant, nor am I humble. I'm real. I see it clear & call it as I see it. So don't go calling cue buyers ignorant & saying they need educated. They know as much about cues as we builders do. It's cues, not rocket science. It's not exactly a mystery why some are better or some more expensive or some more sought after. But hey, thanks for ruining my moment. I was almost about to feel good about my accomplishments. I'm sure glad that didn't happen. Heaven forbid a cuemaker ever get to enjoy his success.[/QUOTE]
I totally disagree with the above in Red, in most cases buyers need a great deal of education. I see it every day when they walk into my retail store, and ask questions. What I also see is that players that have a strong game also do not know in most cases anything more than how they want something to feel. Like I said this thread is not about you, however, if you think you are that important, and that everything is about you, that is only something you can correct. From personal experience, another person could never ruin a moment I have worked hard for, I have never been concerned about what others say, I am not thin skinned. So please do not try and make this about me or anyone except yourself if you really feel that way. When some one asks a question, I do not get the problem with just giving an answer, and this happens here all the time. I am certainly not trying to take away your thunder, you have built a great following that I am sure you deserve so be real like you say you are.
Take Care
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qbilder said:
While I can only speak for myself....I know that I am not attempting to 'steal your thunder'. I took Craig's thread as asking why SP-styled cues that are from a pre-made blank from certain makers are commanding such high prices on the secondary...and it's was/is a valid question.
I have never considered myself a full splice 'snob'. I have owned FS cues from pre-made blanks in the past that were fine players...I have had no complaints. I also can fully appreciate the reasoning behind why some cue makers choose to do SP-styled cues in this manner...again, no complaints.
However...when an SP-styled cue begins to top the $1K+ mark...especially on the secondary, that bad boy had better well be made from an 'in-house' crafted blank and be in minty fresh condition!!
In my mind, the maker who does choose to craft his own blanks 'in-house' should be rewarded for their efforts, and expertise...not to mention the materials that are unavoidably wasted. That's part of the perks for crafting the entire cue from start to finish.
I do not feel that an SP-styled cue that is crafted from a pre-made blank should be commanding the same prices. Now I realize that a lot of work can go into taking a pre-made blank and crafting a quality cue with it...but the undeniable fact here is...the entire cue from start to finish was NOT crafted by the cue maker.
As to those makers who are supplying their own wood to have blanks pre-made for them...I am willing to split the difference on my views...simply because they are investing a bit more into the blank than those who are just buying the blanks pre-made from the blank makers' wood stocks.
I really dislike when names like Balabushka and G Szamboti are thrown around with regards to this subject, because it really does not apply here. Cue making back in those days was a horse of a completely different color...there was just not the variety of options and suppliers available then as there are now. This argument is really NOT applicable, no matter how hard many may try to make it so.
Lastly...when i see a wrapless full splice cue hitting the $1200 mark...it better be sporting some veneers. Even the most excellent shaft wood on the planet does not a $1200 SP make.
Of course, this is just my .02 cents worth...but I am sure I am not alone here. And again, this is meant at no cue maker in particular...my opinion is pretty across the board with regards to this subject.
Lisa
qbilder said:
Eric, I can only hope that you don't let the actions of a few ruin it for the rest of us. I'm not ignorant, nor do I need education. I can VERY safely say that there are many more of us that appreciate your work, and your input...than not. Your cues rarely come up for sale...and when they do...they're gone by the end of the day...if not 15 minutes. They fetch nice prices...prices you could easily be charging yourself. If I had the scratch...I'd buy them all. I'm one of the most easy going, kind-natured people anyone here could hope to meet...but I'm going to be one pissed off mf'er if this nonsense ultimately deprives me of enjoying your presence (and others in like situations) on this forum. Our game doesn't exist without the people that make the cues. For some of us...the cues are all we got. Some of us suck at pool...but still enjoy tremendously the artistic endeavors people like you undertake. I definitely qualify. You have always treated me with an incredible amount of dignity and respect. You've gone out of your way to do right by me...work with me...and communicate with me. Words cannot describe how grateful I am for that. For all the nonsense that consistently comes up regarding your cues...there are a number of us that speak highly of you both on the forum, and away from it. I ask that no matter how difficult it may be...you find a way to brush off the comments of those with nothing good to say...and allow the rest of us to continue enjoying the relationship we've shared with you here. I'm just one person...and I don't suppose my opinion means much to most in here...but there are a TON of good people here...and I hope you never shut us out. Thank you.
There's a cue review here somewhere in this thread but I can't find it.
This is the cue review section and this one is on top of the section.manwon said:
Perhaps it should be moved to the main forum.
Any maker who has earned enough respect his sneakies command high dollar has my props.
JoeyInCali said:
Joey, thanks for your opinion, I was unsure where this would fit, I am sorry for causing you any trouble. This is actually a review of cues, and their prices all this information is on topic. In addition, thanks for your opinion on this subject, I just hope those who are commanding those high dollars continue to do so. Because, like I said before if they are getting a $1000 for Sneakies, they had better build some true Master Pieces if they expect to sell their cues for much more in the future.
Take care Joey!!!!:smile:
I respectfully withdraw from this conversation. I get riled up over stuff like this, and do not feel I can contribute anything meaningful at this point. That...and I really don't want to offend anyone...as for the most part...I really do enjoy the majority of the people on this forum and would like it to stay that way.
Retail1LO said:I respectfully withdraw from this conversation. I get riled up over stuff like this, and do not feel I can contribute anything meaningful at this point. That...and I really don't want to offend anyone...as for the most part...I really do enjoy the majority of the people on this forum and would like it to stay that way.
Me 2!!!!!!
Retail1LO said:I respectfully withdraw from this conversation. I get riled up over stuff like this, and do not feel I can contribute anything meaningful at this point. That...and I really don't want to offend anyone...as for the most part...I really do enjoy the majority of the people on this forum and would like it to stay that way.
Thank you for your candor, I truly respect some one who stands up for what they believe in the face of adversity. You conduct throughout has been very respectful throughout.
Thanks Very much for your overall input.