What Recourse Do I have?

[Jimmorrison]

I have been a criminal defense lawyer for nearly forty years and handled thousands of theft cases so this is an area (unlike my pool skills) where I have some expertise. I have been reading this same basic complaint for years on this forum. Though many have discussed what legal recourse is available, I have yet to see an actual lawyer weigh in. Let me fill that void. To anyone who wishes, just cut and paste the link to this comment in response to anyone who posts a story about being ripped off in a cue deal. Better, make it a sticky. It’s the same situation over and over.

I am not advising the OP or anyone else what to do but there are several general considerations in play. There is a difference in what is technically possible and what, as a practical matter, can be accomplished. Someone in the OP’s position has lost $300 in a deal for pool cues. In many states, this doesn’t rise to a felony level. It is a misdemeanor. Two state prosecutors are potentially involved: the one in the buyer’s state and the one is the seller’s state. The buyer’s state prosecutor would have to get a warrant from a judge and then seek the arrest and extradition of seller to the buyer’s state. Is this technically possible? Yes. In real life, do prosecutors extradite over a $300 misdemeanor? Virtually unheard of. Next, the prosecutor in the seller’s state could consider fraud charges on his end. For a probable misdemeanor, he would likewise have to get a fraud warrant issued in his jurisdiction and then fly the buyer into the jurisdiction and put him up for at least one, probably two nights with meals, maybe more then once. Could he do this? Yes. In real life, will he? Almost surely, no. In either jurisdiction, a $300 offense could be a felony, buT fewer and fewer jurisdictions have felony limits that low. Even if it was a felony, the calculus doesn’t really change from either prosecutor’s perspective. The cost is just not worth it to them in dollars or time. Finally, the feds could get involved, through postal inspectors and then Federal prosecutors. Same issue. For $300 the odds of them getting involved are almost zero. All prosecutors, state or Federal, have discretion in whether to take a case, even if it technically has merit. They can decline to prosecute for any or no reason. One recognized basis for not prosecuting a case is expense versus the gravity of the offense. Prosecutors can characterize a case, even if it has merit, as trivial, and decline prosecution. That doesn’t mean trivial from your perspective, but from their perspective. This notion that the buyer can just “press charges” on a misdemeanor or low-level property offense and the seller will be locked up verges on fantasy. From all the prosecutors, the most the buyer would in all probability get is a polite form letter saying their office has carefully reviewed the information provided and would advise him to seek recourse in civil courts. As a practical matter, few prosecutors would be interested in getting involved in this kind of case unless it involved thousands of dollars. Even then they would want to see an airtight case and would prefer to see multiple instances instead of a solitary, disgruntled buyer. Alternatively, buyers can consider, as some have suggested, civil courts. This would fall into small claims in most areas. Even at that there would be a filing fee ($25 to $100, depending on jurisdiction). Buyer will then have to appear in civil court in a jurisdiction on the other side of the country. He will have to foot his own bill to fly in and pay for room and board. He’ll also have to have a valid address on the seller as he will have to get him served, which could also be at seller’s expense. In real life, in this situation, the courts may be a theoretical avenue for relief but, they are just not practical in a multi-jurisdiction, low-level property offense.

I assume the “stalk him to his workplace and beat the shit out of him” responses are not serious but, just in case, suffice it to say that picking up your own felony assault charge is not wise cost/benefit analysis.

I don’t defend this system but, like it or not, it is the system In which we all live. To most all of the aggrieved cue buyers, unless your fraudulent seller is in your jurisdiction or at least nearby, and/or substantial money is involved, you are, as a practical matter, out of luck.

Thanks for taking the time

 

[PhilosopherKing]

I have been a criminal defense lawyer for nearly forty years and handled thousands of theft cases so this is an area (unlike my pool skills) where I have some expertise. I have been reading this same basic complaint for years on this forum. Though many have discussed what legal recourse is available, I have yet to see an actual lawyer weigh in. Let me fill that void. To anyone who wishes, just cut and paste the link to this comment in response to anyone who posts a story about being ripped off in a cue deal. Better, make it a sticky. It’s the same situation over and over.

I am not advising the OP or anyone else what to do but there are several general considerations in play. There is a difference in what is technically possible and what, as a practical matter, can be accomplished. Someone in the OP’s position has lost $300 in a deal for pool cues. In many states, this doesn’t rise to a felony level. It is a misdemeanor. Two state prosecutors are potentially involved: the one in the buyer’s state and the one is the seller’s state. The buyer’s state prosecutor would have to get a warrant from a judge and then seek the arrest and extradition of seller to the buyer’s state. Is this technically possible? Yes. In real life, do prosecutors extradite over a $300 misdemeanor? Virtually unheard of. Next, the prosecutor in the seller’s state could consider fraud charges on his end. For a probable misdemeanor, he would likewise have to get a fraud warrant issued in his jurisdiction and then fly the buyer into the jurisdiction and put him up for at least one, probably two nights with meals, maybe more then once. Could he do this? Yes. In real life, will he? Almost surely, no. In either jurisdiction, a $300 offense could be a felony, buT fewer and fewer jurisdictions have felony limits that low. Even if it was a felony, the calculus doesn’t really change from either prosecutor’s perspective. The cost is just not worth it to them in dollars or time. Finally, the feds could get involved, through postal inspectors and then Federal prosecutors. Same issue. For $300 the odds of them getting involved are almost zero. All prosecutors, state or Federal, have discretion in whether to take a case, even if it technically has merit. They can decline to prosecute for any or no reason. One recognized basis for not prosecuting a case is expense versus the gravity of the offense. Prosecutors can characterize a case, even if it has merit, as trivial, and decline prosecution. That doesn’t mean trivial from your perspective, but from their perspective. This notion that the buyer can just “press charges” on a misdemeanor or low-level property offense and the seller will be locked up verges on fantasy. From all the prosecutors, the most the buyer would in all probability get is a polite form letter saying their office has carefully reviewed the information provided and would advise him to seek recourse in civil courts. As a practical matter, few prosecutors would be interested in getting involved in this kind of case unless it involved thousands of dollars. Even then they would want to see an airtight case and would prefer to see multiple instances instead of a solitary, disgruntled buyer. Alternatively, buyers can consider, as some have suggested, civil courts. This would fall into small claims in most areas. Even at that there would be a filing fee ($25 to $100, depending on jurisdiction). Buyer will then have to appear in civil court in a jurisdiction on the other side of the country. He will have to foot his own bill to fly in and pay for room and board. He’ll also have to have a valid address on the seller as he will have to get him served, which could also be at seller’s expense. In real life, in this situation, the courts may be a theoretical avenue for relief but, they are just not practical in a multi-jurisdiction, low-level property offense.

I assume the “stalk him to his workplace and beat the shit out of him” responses are not serious but, just in case, suffice it to say that picking up your own felony assault charge is not wise cost/benefit analysis.

I don’t defend this system but, like it or not, it is the system In which we all live. To most all of the aggrieved cue buyers, unless your fraudulent seller is in your jurisdiction or at least nearby, and/or substantial money is involved, you are, as a practical matter, out of luck.

Thank you

 

[PhilosopherKing]

I have been a criminal defense lawyer for nearly forty years and handled thousands of theft cases so this is an area (unlike my pool skills) where I have some expertise. I have been reading this same basic complaint for years on this forum. Though many have discussed what legal recourse is available, I have yet to see an actual lawyer weigh in. Let me fill that void. To anyone who wishes, just cut and paste the link to this comment in response to anyone who posts a story about being ripped off in a cue deal. Better, make it a sticky. It’s the same situation over and over.

I am not advising the OP or anyone else what to do but there are several general considerations in play. There is a difference in what is technically possible and what, as a practical matter, can be accomplished. Someone in the OP’s position has lost $300 in a deal for pool cues. In many states, this doesn’t rise to a felony level. It is a misdemeanor. Two state prosecutors are potentially involved: the one in the buyer’s state and the one is the seller’s state. The buyer’s state prosecutor would have to get a warrant from a judge and then seek the arrest and extradition of seller to the buyer’s state. Is this technically possible? Yes. In real life, do prosecutors extradite over a $300 misdemeanor? Virtually unheard of. Next, the prosecutor in the seller’s state could consider fraud charges on his end. For a probable misdemeanor, he would likewise have to get a fraud warrant issued in his jurisdiction and then fly the buyer into the jurisdiction and put him up for at least one, probably two nights with meals, maybe more then once. Could he do this? Yes. In real life, will he? Almost surely, no. In either jurisdiction, a $300 offense could be a felony, buT fewer and fewer jurisdictions have felony limits that low. Even if it was a felony, the calculus doesn’t really change from either prosecutor’s perspective. The cost is just not worth it to them in dollars or time. Finally, the feds could get involved, through postal inspectors and then Federal prosecutors. Same issue. For $300 the odds of them getting involved are almost zero. All prosecutors, state or Federal, have discretion in whether to take a case, even if it technically has merit. They can decline to prosecute for any or no reason. One recognized basis for not prosecuting a case is expense versus the gravity of the offense. Prosecutors can characterize a case, even if it has merit, as trivial, and decline prosecution. That doesn’t mean trivial from your perspective, but from their perspective. This notion that the buyer can just “press charges” on a misdemeanor or low-level property offense and the seller will be locked up verges on fantasy. From all the prosecutors, the most the buyer would in all probability get is a polite form letter saying their office has carefully reviewed the information provided and would advise him to seek recourse in civil courts. As a practical matter, few prosecutors would be interested in getting involved in this kind of case unless it involved thousands of dollars. Even then they would want to see an airtight case and would prefer to see multiple instances instead of a solitary, disgruntled buyer. Alternatively, buyers can consider, as some have suggested, civil courts. This would fall into small claims in most areas. Even at that there would be a filing fee ($25 to $100, depending on jurisdiction). Buyer will then have to appear in civil court in a jurisdiction on the other side of the country. He will have to foot his own bill to fly in and pay for room and board. He’ll also have to have a valid address on the seller as he will have to get him served, which could also be at seller’s expense. In real life, in this situation, the courts may be a theoretical avenue for relief but, they are just not practical in a multi-jurisdiction, low-level property offense.

I assume the “stalk him to his workplace and beat the shit out of him” responses are not serious but, just in case, suffice it to say that picking up your own felony assault charge is not wise cost/benefit analysis.

I don’t defend this system but, like it or not, it is the system In which we all live. To most all of the aggrieved cue buyers, unless your fraudulent seller is in your jurisdiction or at least nearby, and/or substantial money is involved, you are, as a practical matter, out of luck.

I really appreciate your time and thoughtful post.

It was my understanding that his theft of a postal money order and using the mail to do so were both felonies.

I’ve been told that the the US Postal Inspectors pursue such cases and have one of the highest conviction rates.

I just spoke to the person and he seems to be in a bad way regarding personal choices.

I may just dangle the idea of legal trouble a little longer to try and get a result.

I certainly will not take it up with his employer, as it’s commendable that someone in his condition is able to hold down a job.

Thanks again.

 

[nick serdula]

To the lawyer. If you pay with a postal money order. You have a muscle man on your side. All you need is a phone number for the Post master to call. The post master's words are law. I know. They hate thieves too. Every time. Just the facts. The instrument was mailed that is the first felony on a non delivery item. This help is not available unless you pay Postal money orders. Bypasses all the crap. Go to jail or make it right. You better not tell even a little lie. Do you realize a police officer cannot arrest a Postmaster, but the postmaster can have a cop arrested? Your scammer is screwed unless the postmaster cannot contact him.

 

[alstl]

Bought a couple of cues online. Paid with a Postal Money order. Sent it to him USPS Express Mail… He cashed the check and never sent the cues.

This genius also told me that he works for UPS and would ship via them: I have his employee ID number from a picture that he posted on Facebook.

What legal recourse do I have?

Would I be justified in making a complaint with UPS since he used his position there in the scam?

Thanks

If you paid via Postal money order and he cashed it I suspect that is legally mail fraud. Contact the nearest Postal Inspection Service and ask to file a mail fraud report. Get the details of the money order number ahead of time and name and address of the person who defrauded you.

 

[Clusterbuster]

To the lawyer. If you pay with a postal money order. You have a muscle man on your side. All you need is a phone number for the Post master to call. The post master's words are law. I know. They hate thieves too. Every time. Just the facts. The instrument was mailed that is the first felony on a non delivery item. This help is not available unless you pay Postal money orders. Bypasses all the crap. Go to jail or make it right. You better not tell even a little lie. Do you realize a police officer cannot arrest a Postmaster, but the postmaster can have a cop arrested? Your scammer is screwed unless the postmaster cannot contact him.

Wrong on almost every level. A Postal Inspector is just another law enforcement officer. The Post Master’s word is not law. He can arrest on the basis of a warrant, signed by a judge or upon the basis of probable cause to believe a felony was committed. The latter usually occurs in the context of local law enforcement seeing a felony committed in their presence (e.g., masked man running out of store with gun in hand and clerk identifies him at scene). There’s no warrant but suspect is going to jail. At the federal level, however, arrest in the absence of a warrant seldom occurs. Federal arrests are almost always on the basis of an indictment drafted by the prosecutor and presented to a grand jury. Again, this could happen in the context of a situation such as we are discussing but it almost surely will not for a $300 offense. They would leave it to the state authorities who are even less interested. Now, could somebody know a Postal Inspector who could maybe throw his weight around and get somebody to cough up $300 to avoid more drama? Yes, but that is not typical and you can’t assume a situation would resolve in that fashion.

 

[Clusterbuster]

Think the one area that our lawyer friend did not address is even if you got small claim judgement.

Many people do not pay the judgement. Then it back to same small claim court, to get writ of execution.

Then you have to have it served by court officer where the guy banks know account number, or place of employment.

If they do not take all money to satisfy judgement, back to court again for another paper. All takes time & money.

Lawyer friend absolutely agrees.

 

[nick serdula]

Listen to me. I have done this, including the seller calling me and begging me he would comply to the Postmasters orders. Is that something hard to understand. I can't be wrong on any level. My father-in-law was a president of the postal union local. I have worked in shipping for 42 years. Nothing beats the protections provided by federal laws. Or the people that choose to enforce those laws.
Screw judgements. Give me my stuff or go to jail. That is the power of paying with Postal Money Orders and the necessity of having the phone number of whoever you choose to sell or buy from. Anything else falls very short. I do not use paypal unless it is a friend. I do take checks and let them clear. When all you do is break even any lose id a big lose.
Nick

 

[PDX]

I once paid with Western Union for a cue out of state. I called the guy before any money was sent and made an assessment of the scenario based on how the conversation went. Actually I’ve done it twice. I realized when I was sending them money, it was a gamble. Both times were just under $200, one was an R-6 and the other was a D series McDermott. Luckily it went through fine. It’s a bummer this happened, but fortunately it’s only $300.

 

[ddg45]

Bought a couple of cues online. Paid with a Postal Money order. Sent it to him USPS Express Mail… He cashed the check and never sent the cues.

This genius also told me that he works for UPS and would ship via them: I have his employee ID number from a picture that he posted on Facebook.

What legal recourse do I have?

Would I be justified in making a complaint with UPS since he used his position there in the scam?

Thanks

I'm not sure what you're waiting for. He's a crook. Do whatever you can think of (police, UPS, his state's attorney general for consumer affairs) and get after him. His refusing PayPal was a huge red flag. Also, why not tell us who he is?

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I'm not sure what you're waiting for. He's a crook. Do whatever you can think of (police, UPS, his state's attorney general for consumer affairs) and get after him. His refusing PayPal was a huge red flag. Also, why not tell us who he is?

He did tell us. Go back, read slow.
Get after him has been addressed also.

 

[ddg45]

He did tell us. Go back, read slow.
Get after him has been addressed also.

I guess I didn't read every comment on every page. My bad.

 

[kling&allen]

I have been a criminal defense lawyer for nearly forty years and handled hundreds of theft and fraud cases so this is an area (unlike my pool skills) where I have some expertise. I have been reading this same basic complaint for years on this forum. Though many have discussed what legal recourse is available, I have yet to see an actual lawyer weigh in. Let me fill that void. To anyone who wishes, just cut and paste the link to this comment in response to anyone who posts a story about being ripped off in a cue deal. Better, make it a sticky. It’s the same situation over and over.

I am not advising the OP or anyone else what to do but there are several general considerations in play. There is a difference in what is technically possible and what, as a practical matter, can be accomplished. Someone in the OP’s position has lost $300 in a deal for pool cues. In many states, this doesn’t rise to a felony level. It is a misdemeanor. Two state prosecutors are potentially involved: the one in the buyer’s state and the one is the seller’s state. The buyer’s state prosecutor would have to get a warrant from a judge and then seek the arrest and extradition of the seller to the buyer’s state. Is this technically possible? Yes. In real life, do prosecutors extradite over a $300 misdemeanor? Virtually unheard of. Next, the prosecutor in the seller’s state could consider fraud charges on his end. For a probable misdemeanor, he would likewise have to get a fraud warrant issued in his jurisdiction and then fly the buyer into the jurisdiction and put him up for at least one, probably two nights with meals, maybe more then once. Could he do this? Yes. In real life, will he? Almost surely, no. In either jurisdiction, a $300 offense could be a felony, but fewer and fewer jurisdictions have felony limits that low. Even if it was a felony, the calculus doesn’t really change from either prosecutor’s perspective. The public cost is just not worth it to them in dollars or time. Finally, the feds could get involved, through postal inspectors and then Federal prosecutors. Same issue. For $300 the odds of them getting involved are almost zero. All prosecutors, state or Federal, have discretion in whether to take a case, even if it technically has merit. They can decline to prosecute for any or no reason. One recognized basis for not prosecuting a case is expense versus the gravity of the offense. Prosecutors can characterize a case, even if it has merit, as trivial, and decline prosecution. That doesn’t mean trivial from your perspective, but from their perspective. This notion that the buyer can just “press charges” on a misdemeanor or low-level property offense and the seller will be locked up verges on fantasy. From all the prosecutors, the most the buyer would in all probability get is a polite form letter saying their office has carefully reviewed the information provided and would advise him to seek recourse in civil courts. As a practical matter, few prosecutors would be interested in getting involved in this kind of case unless it involved thousands of dollars. Even then they would want to see an airtight case and would prefer to see multiple instances instead of a solitary, disgruntled buyer. Alternatively, buyers can consider, as some have suggested, civil courts. This would fall into small claims in most areas. Even at that there would be a filing fee ($25 to $100, depending on jurisdiction). Buyer will then have to appear in civil court in a jurisdiction on the other side of the country, probably more than once, This would be a private cause of action and so he will have to foot his own bill to fly in and pay for room and board, again, probably more than once. He’ll also have to have a valid address on the seller as he will have to get him served, which could also be at seller’s expense. In real life, in this situation, the courts may be a theoretical avenue for relief but, they are just not practical for a multi-jurisdiction, low-level property offense.

I assume the “stalk him to his workplace and beat the shit out of him” responses are not serious but, just in case, suffice it to say that picking up your own felony assault charge is not wise cost/benefit analysis.

I don’t defend this system but, like it or not, it is the system In which we all live. To most all of the aggrieved cue buyers, unless your fraudulent seller is in your jurisdiction or at least nearby, and/or substantial money is involved, you are, as a practical matter, out of luck.

I add (as another lawyer) that in many of these situations the buyer will be able to assert jurisdiction over the seller in civil court (including small claims) using his or her state's long arm statute.

But, as another poster noted, when the seller defaults you just get a piece of paper and then need to find out how to enforce the judgment in the seller's home state.

That's going to be impossible, so the only option is often to sell your judgment to a debt collector for pennies on the dollar. And if your judgment is for a few hundred dollars, no debt collector will be interested.

 

[Bob Jewett]

In related news, I just got a 1099-K from Ebay. I looked on the Innerwebz just to see if people were chattering about it and it seems a whole bunch of people are getting 1099-Ks without having sold anything on Ebay. Someone has gotten their account info somehow and has sold stuff in their names. I suppose the lesson is that you need to look over the listed amounts, if any, to make sure they are all yours. From reports, it seems Ebay doesn't particularly care.

 

[ideologist]

In related news, I just got a 1099-K from Ebay. I looked on the Innerwebz just to see if people were chattering about it and it seems a whole bunch of people are getting 1099-Ks without having sold anything on Ebay. Someone has gotten their account info somehow and has sold stuff in their names. I suppose the lesson is that you need to look over the listed amounts, if any, to make sure they are all yours. From reports, it seems Ebay doesn't particularly care.

Calm down

Ebay apologized for incorrectly issuing 1099-Ks, you got an email about it

 

[Bob Jewett]

Calm down

Ebay apologized for incorrectly issuing 1099-Ks, you got an email about it

The issue I mentioned is more or less unrelated to Ebay's mistake of sending out 1099-Ks for tax year 2021 on amounts that were under the still-applicable $20,000 threshold. I'm pretty sure that is what the apology was about.

The issue I mentioned is the apparently large number of frauds that the mistaken mailing has uncovered. People were getting 1099-Ks although they sold absolutely nothing on Ebay. Apparently someone else was using their accounts somehow for the sales.