What rule(s) would you change?

RakRunr

RakRunr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
NOTE: I'm fairly new around here, so if this has been done before I apologize for the repeat.

Not that I'm that old, but when I was a kid we played 9-ball a little differently:
1) Scratches and fouls were BIH behind the line.
2) We played all-ball fouls: accidentally moving a ball with your hand or stick was a foul.
3) Balls made on fouls or scratches were spotted, including on the break.

Around that time, "Texas Express" rules became popular because they sped the game up and were better for TV. It helped make the game a bit more accessible during it's American heyday. The serious players in my area looked down on it because it wasn't considered "playing by the real rules". I took a 20 year hiatus and started playing again last fall only to find that these now ARE the "real" rules.

This is not a complaint: rule changes can be good, and the game should evolve. My question to the members here is "what rule(s) would you change if you could?"

Here are a couple examples to get the ball rolling (sorry for the pun!):

I would eliminate a win on the break. I think it is wrong that ANY game can be won on the break. So, in 8-9-10-ball, a winning ball on the break should be spotted, and the breaker should be given ball in hand. I know there are some tournaments that have local rules to address this, usually something like "9-ball on the break does not win in the bottom corner pockets". Let's just extend this and admit that a single break shot does not a game make.

I would eliminate the three-foul rule. While playing safe is an integral part of the game, the goal is to legally pocket the winning ball. A good safety already rewards the player with BIH, which should help towards that end. Doing it three times in a row is just humiliating. At the very least, let's say a scratch on the break doesn't count towards the three-foul rule.

In 9-ball, a game should not be won on slop. 8-ball and 10-ball already address this, and it goes hand in hand with the "no win on the break" rule (by eliminating the purely lucky win). I'm OK with slop on the non-winning balls, but the 9-ball should be called.

I know not everyone will agree, all I want to start here is an honest discussion of the rules and how we could make them better. I look forward to hearing other ideas or refutations. Debate on!
 
For 9 ball I would require that the center string be marked on the table and for competition and that the center row of balls be aligned on the center line. No tilt...

As it stands now the one ball must be on the spot but it says nothing about the rack being straight. This isn't a huge issue but it would be a small step to make the 9 ball break a little less an issue.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
 
I would agree with the foul rule. If you can't win after getting 2 BIH during one match you don't deserve to win period. :)

I would also agree with the break rule as this would do 2 things:
1.) remove the luck as it is rare to make the 8 and cause them to shoot the match for the best player to win.
2.) Encourage people to stop putting the damn cue ball in the same spot every break thus breaking down the felt that much quicker.
 
In my opinion...people that don't like a fast and dangerous game like 9-ball...
....should play other games.
Are you trying to make all games look alike?
 
Not to mess with the "official" WPA / BCA rules, but most places I play in we already play called shot on the 9 / 9 on break is not a win rules. And most local tournaments geared towards lower players don't use the 3 foul rule. The one I play in most often had the 3 foul rule, and I had to spend 5 minutes arguing with some guy that even if you hit the lowest ball and then scratch it's still a foul LOL. He whiffed on two hits, then hit the 3rd one but cueball went into a pocket.

A rule that I'd like to see is to have a "do you know what the rules are" test before anyone plays with anyone else. Anyone that can make more than 2 balls in a row should not be playing by made-up bar rules.
 
pt109 said:
In my opinion...people that don't like a fast and dangerous game like 9-ball...
....should play other games.
Are you trying to make all games look alike?
Click to expand...

Completely fair point. 8 and 9-ball are pretty much the de facto games for most players, certainly at the league level, and they look nothing alike, even with these rule changes. This would make 9 and 10-ball look more similar, but I think the two main reasons for the rise of 10-ball are the break and call-shot. If 9-ball had those, we probably wouldn't be seeing so much 10-ball today.

Which also validates your point in a way: if we want these rules, why not play 10-ball? Because 9-ball is already entrenched in the community psyche.

And for the record, I like the fast aspect of 9-ball: I would not suggest going back to spotting balls or BIH in the kitchen, I just want to ease up on the luck factor a tiny bit when it relates to winning the game.
 
RakRunr said:
Completely fair point. 8 and 9-ball are pretty much the de facto games for most players, certainly at the league level, and they look nothing alike, even with these rule changes. This would make 9 and 10-ball look more similar, but I think the two main reasons for the rise of 10-ball are the break and call-shot. If 9-ball had those, we probably wouldn't be seeing so much 10-ball today.

Which also validates your point in a way: if we want these rules, why not play 10-ball? Because 9-ball is already entrenched in the community psyche.

And for the record, I like the fast aspect of 9-ball: I would not suggest going back to spotting balls or BIH in the kitchen, I just want to ease up on the luck factor a tiny bit when it relates to winning the game.
Click to expand...

You struck a nerve with me on call-shot 10-ball.....I hate that game.:angry:
I've played lots of 9 and 10-ball....two foul and one foul....NO calling.
8-ball....last-pocket rules....NO calling.
I can live with the uncertainty....it's called gambling....best player wins in the long haul.

I see today's game reverting to 'bar rules'....which I avoided.
I hope this thinking doesn't spill over into 3-cushion and snooker, I'll have no one to play.


BTW...I sent you a greenie...you are a pleasure to debate with, sir.
 
pt109 said:
You struck a nerve with me on call-shot 10-ball.....I hate that game.:angry:
I've played lots of 9 and 10-ball....two foul and one foul....NO calling.
8-ball....last-pocket rules....NO calling.
I can live with the uncertainty....it's called gambling....best player wins in the long haul.
Click to expand...
If you don't like call-shot 10-ball, don't play it - I believe that was one of your original points :grin:

It sounds like the gambling aspect is what attracts you to the game, and I know lots of guys like that. For me, I find gambling to be a detractor. This isn't moral or judgmental, I'm not above a little wager, but, I love the game for the game's sake and can completely do without the gambling and uncertainty. If I get beat, or win, for that matter, I don't want it to be because of luck.

pt109 said:
I see today's game reverting to 'bar rules'....which I avoided.
I hope this thinking doesn't spill over into 3-cushion and snooker, I'll have no one to play.
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of bar tables, so I don't play "bar rules". To what thinking in particular are you referring? I don't know much about the worlds of snooker and 3-cushion.

pt109 said:
BTW...I sent you a greenie...you are a pleasure to debate with, sir.
Click to expand...
I don't know what that is, but it sounds good, so I appreciate it!
 
sammylane12 said:
I would eliminate jump cues and plastic template racks.
Click to expand...

I understand the argument against the jump cue [naturally, I'll keep using one as long as they're legal]. When I was coming up there was no such thing. I studied for a while under a Tour player, and when he caught me practicing the jump shot (full cue), he told me not to waste my time because he was sure the jump shot was going to be outlawed. That was 25 years ago, and it is certainly alive and well.

What is your argument against the plastic template rack? By that, I assume you mean "Magic Rack" and the like?
 
The template racks are the best thing that happened to the viewers of pool, imo.

Last night I tuned into the Accu-stats game show for a few minutes. I caught the behind of a man racking for what seemed like several minutes for his chance at the break and run pot. After he removed the rack, all looked good, and he started walking away. Then, he decided he needed to re-rack them as he saw something loose.

Long live the template rack!!! Burn in hell forever the triangle racks!!!
 
RakRunr said:
Interesting, because I would favor forcing alternate rack like we do in one-pocket :thumbup:
Click to expand...

An alternate break is a boring format.You can't see a real game nor it is so possible to catch dead stroke.
For me,I prefer seing players break and run numerous racks.In these situations you can feel in the air strength of their game.
Playing an alternate break it is so boring and you take the opportunity seing some great pool.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Last edited:
pt109 said:
In my opinion...people that don't like a fast and dangerous game like 9-ball...
....should play other games.
Are you trying to make all games look alike?
Click to expand...

I'm not crazy about 9 ball, in fact I don't like the game one bit, nor 10 ball, but I agree with this 100%.
 
RakRunr said:
NOTE: I'm fairly new around here, so if this has been done before I apologize for the repeat.

Not that I'm that old, but when I was a kid we played 9-ball a little differently:
1) Scratches and fouls were BIH behind the line.
2) We played all-ball fouls: accidentally moving a ball with your hand or stick was a foul.
3) Balls made on fouls or scratches were spotted, including on the break.

Around that time, "Texas Express" rules became popular because they sped the game up and were better for TV. It helped make the game a bit more accessible during it's American heyday. The serious players in my area looked down on it because it wasn't considered "playing by the real rules". I took a 20 year hiatus and started playing again last fall only to find that these now ARE the "real" rules.

This is not a complaint: rule changes can be good, and the game should evolve. My question to the members here is "what rule(s) would you change if you could?"

Here are a couple examples to get the ball rolling (sorry for the pun!):

I would eliminate a win on the break. I think it is wrong that ANY game can be won on the break. So, in 8-9-10-ball, a winning ball on the break should be spotted, and the breaker should be given ball in hand. I know there are some tournaments that have local rules to address this, usually something like "9-ball on the break does not win in the bottom corner pockets". Let's just extend this and admit that a single break shot does not a game make.

I would eliminate the three-foul rule. While playing safe is an integral part of the game, the goal is to legally pocket the winning ball. A good safety already rewards the player with BIH, which should help towards that end. Doing it three times in a row is just humiliating. At the very least, let's say a scratch on the break doesn't count towards the three-foul rule.

In 9-ball, a game should not be won on slop. 8-ball and 10-ball already address this, and it goes hand in hand with the "no win on the break" rule (by eliminating the purely lucky win). I'm OK with slop on the non-winning balls, but the 9-ball should be called.

I know not everyone will agree, all I want to start here is an honest discussion of the rules and how we could make them better. I look forward to hearing other ideas or refutations. Debate on!
Click to expand...

1. The problem with "ball-in-hand behind the line" is that I can deliberately foul when the lowest numbered ball is in the kitchen, and my opponent needs to kick up and down table to hit it. It is usually not really a penalty for me; it doesn't make sense.

2. "Cue-ball foul only" can avoid some arguments (and create others) when there's no referee. Unlike #1 above, this does not really affect the nature of the game.

3. Spotting the balls made in a foul actually benefits the player who has committed the foul and penalizes the incoming player e.g. more balls on the table, spotted ball blocking otherwise make-able balls, etc. This rule doesn't make sense.

4. If your idea of eliminating "win on a break" is because the money ball should not be treated special during the break, then I don't see why the breaker should get ball-in-hand if he makes the money ball duing the break.

5. Without the three-foul rule, what should we do with this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9y8Lv_A1s? Or, how do you think it should be resolved?

6. It's hilarious that some people think 10-ball is by definition call-shot and 9-ball is not. You can always add the call-shot rule to 9-ball or remove it from 10-ball. I wrote about a twist to this here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=400506&page=2

sammylane12 said:
I would eliminate jump cues and plastic template racks.
Click to expand...

Some people think the "magic rack" is too perfect and good players are exploiting it so we should use the wooden rack and every rack will be more different. It's like asking to use a different unbalanced weird 8 ball each game because otherwise the equipment would be too perfect. What kind of logic is that?

ivicafranic said:
An alternate break is a boring format.You can't see a real game nor it is so possible to catch dead stroke.
For me,I prefer seing players break and run numerous racks.In these situations you can feel in the air strength of their game.
Playing an alternate break it is so boring and you take the opportunity seing some great pool.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Click to expand...

I prefer the trailing player to decide who will break.
 
Either call a pocket or call safe. If you miss and leave your opponent bad, they have the option to shoot or give it back to you. I like alternate break format. I like great shooting as well but I also like both players having an equal chances at the table.
 
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