What will it take to Jump start Pool in America
- Thread starter DrawtheRock
- Start date
How about paramutual gambling at the big tournaments, would that interest anyone? Any nasty situations (throwing off) would have serious consequenses (banned from Pro Pool 1 year-5 year-lifetime).
Side betting (each game and/or match) at the tournaments should be allowed, maybe even encouraged.
Commentators should beseated with the stakehorses & their conversations piped in together.
Celebrity Pro-Ams at each tournament, Maybe even some audience participation with a 4-5 Speed race to 3 Tournament, that might be hilarious to watch...
National Ranking "from the governing body", like the USGA, to rank each player & signed by their local Pool Room owner or a licensed instructor.
I also believe players should become member in a Players association, like the PGA, & look for sponsors of the Association instead of the players.
Using info from the National Sporting Goods Association (est 34,000,000 worldwide) should interest someone. If the players select a clothing company & start wearing that brand of clothing, at tournaments, that might be intro into adding a sponsor to the Association. There are lots of ways to "skin a cat".
A genuine NATIONAL PETITION would not be difficult & it would be great to show this kind of support for chosen sport. These documents could be certified by a CPA & used to garner attention by companies, even newspapers & magazines....
Side betting (each game and/or match) at the tournaments should be allowed, maybe even encouraged.
Commentators should beseated with the stakehorses & their conversations piped in together.
Celebrity Pro-Ams at each tournament, Maybe even some audience participation with a 4-5 Speed race to 3 Tournament, that might be hilarious to watch...
National Ranking "from the governing body", like the USGA, to rank each player & signed by their local Pool Room owner or a licensed instructor.
I also believe players should become member in a Players association, like the PGA, & look for sponsors of the Association instead of the players.
Using info from the National Sporting Goods Association (est 34,000,000 worldwide) should interest someone. If the players select a clothing company & start wearing that brand of clothing, at tournaments, that might be intro into adding a sponsor to the Association. There are lots of ways to "skin a cat".
A genuine NATIONAL PETITION would not be difficult & it would be great to show this kind of support for chosen sport. These documents could be certified by a CPA & used to garner attention by companies, even newspapers & magazines....
About 10 years ago the professional bowlers tour was about to go belly up. A guy who had been with Microsoft from the beginning also happened to be a bowling fanatic. He bought the tour and had enough money to see it through the hard times. The tour now has sponsors and seems to do O.K. Pool had a guy like that with Kevin Trudeau. Unfortunately someone sold Mr. Trudeau a healthy dose of bull about how big the payouts should be and that every one should get a check. In spite of the fact that Trudeau is a shady character, he had the money to really back a viable tour.
mnorwood said:
I think that you are right on with #1. Look at Europe, they have billiard clubs, youth programs and coaches, they have "legitimized the sport. We are losing the young players because there is no organized framework to allow them to learn the game. Name a highly successful sport in the USA where there is NOT organized participation at the high school level. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer, tennis, golf, track and even chess and debating are all organized at the youth level. Go into any pool hall and see how many serious players are under 21, there are very few. We are losing a generation of potentially great players. Pool needs to get a reputation as a sport played by smart, talented, decent kids. America has produced some great players but imagine what the game could have been if it was played seriously by a wide variety of kids with coaching and organized competion instead of just the kids who hung out in the pool room and gambled.
It's an uphill battle because pool has to compete with everything else for kids' attention including other sports and video games. If I owned a pool hall I would try to find a decent instructor and have group youth classes where kids would be encouraged to bring their parents and learn what the game (and the environment) is all about. It would be tough to pull off in a normal pool hall but not impossible. The game will always be there for those kids who discover it on their own but that may not be enough.
What if the BCA or APA had larger purses at their finals in Vegas? What if it was 100k to the winning team and more money to those that cashed in the event. Would that spark more participation? Or are we talking about events where the everyday pool player cant win? Poker has boomed because of the participation of amateur players. This is what needs to be incorporated in the game somehow. IMHO
This sounds like the way to go.....
I would be willing to try and organize something on the local, maybe California level.
I think that a team structure where they compete against other teams would be a good way to get this going.
It has to be the best players and to start the teams should organize themselves.
There should be a ruling body that accepts teams recieves dues from the teams and organizes cmpetitions. We can stream the matches online to start. I think from there it can grow. The organizing body could put together some sort of advertising in the areas of the individual teams that will be competing using the dues from the teams to pay for it.
It can grow in other areas and eventually when enough support is garnered start to be done on a more professional level like that of other sports with higher level advertising, etc.
I'll start to put something together and see what I can come up with as far as a structure and what not....
JAden
pooltchr said:
I would be willing to try and organize something on the local, maybe California level.
I think that a team structure where they compete against other teams would be a good way to get this going.
It has to be the best players and to start the teams should organize themselves.
There should be a ruling body that accepts teams recieves dues from the teams and organizes cmpetitions. We can stream the matches online to start. I think from there it can grow. The organizing body could put together some sort of advertising in the areas of the individual teams that will be competing using the dues from the teams to pay for it.
It can grow in other areas and eventually when enough support is garnered start to be done on a more professional level like that of other sports with higher level advertising, etc.
I'll start to put something together and see what I can come up with as far as a structure and what not....
JAden
kevin s said:
I'm not certain that more money at the top of the game translates into more participation at the bottom but it can't hurt. Everyone compares pool with poker but I don't see many similarities. Poker can be played anywhere with no equipment required and the basics are easy enought to understand. There are no hand/eye/coordination skills to develop to play poker; it's a game not a sport.
There's no doubt that it takes skill to be a good poker player and experienced players have an advantage but the difference is much more pronounced in pool. Somebody could learn to play poker, practice online and with friends, study the game and enter a major tournament in a short period of time. They may not do well but they will win some hands and who knows what could happen with the right cards. Contrast this with pool where the skill development required to become even a good amateur player is tremendous. Part of the problem with pool (it's also what makes the game great) is that it's very hard to play well. Millions of people like to bang the balls around every now and again for recreation in a social setting but very few will put into the effort required to learn basic shot making and position play. Until you learn the basics and can run some balls with a basic understanding of where the cue ball will go it's hard to appreciate the game for what it really is. Most people won't ever get to even this level.
chefjeff said:The pros helping others learn just how difficult this game is would be a start.
I think [highlight]Joe Public thinks[/highlight] pool is easy when it is not.
Here's an example from a recent AZ article:
Jeff Livingston
[highlight]Sometimes Joe Public has no clue![/highlight]
I put together some ideas what do you think?
Put together city wide tournaments to determine team makeup. Top five finishers overall are on the team. The qualification tourney would take place over two or three weeks. One night a week for each discipline (or it could be a single weekend).
Half of entry fee would go to developing the tour and half would be paid out to the top five finishers. (possibly try to get some sponsors for added monies, especially for the actual team competitions).
Ten ball, one pocket, and eight ball. The contests will be a round robin format between two of the three disciplines. Possibly set it up so that it is a random draw as to which discipline if time constraints are necessary, although with only ten people competing on any given matchup that shouldn?t be an issue.
The team with the best averages will be declared the winners.
Live streaming via the web.
Teams will have a designated manager from their city, start off on voluntary basis or possibly the winner of the qualification tourney can just be a designated team captain (or team can choose a team captain from amongst themselves, majority rules?).
Each team will choose a mascot and a team name, final decision made by manager, whether that is an additional person or coach or the team captain. Not sure yet.
Jaden
P.S. This was just some brainstorming so don't think that this is any where near set in stone.
Put together city wide tournaments to determine team makeup. Top five finishers overall are on the team. The qualification tourney would take place over two or three weeks. One night a week for each discipline (or it could be a single weekend).
Half of entry fee would go to developing the tour and half would be paid out to the top five finishers. (possibly try to get some sponsors for added monies, especially for the actual team competitions).
Ten ball, one pocket, and eight ball. The contests will be a round robin format between two of the three disciplines. Possibly set it up so that it is a random draw as to which discipline if time constraints are necessary, although with only ten people competing on any given matchup that shouldn?t be an issue.
The team with the best averages will be declared the winners.
Live streaming via the web.
Teams will have a designated manager from their city, start off on voluntary basis or possibly the winner of the qualification tourney can just be a designated team captain (or team can choose a team captain from amongst themselves, majority rules?).
Each team will choose a mascot and a team name, final decision made by manager, whether that is an additional person or coach or the team captain. Not sure yet.
Jaden
P.S. This was just some brainstorming so don't think that this is any where near set in stone.
i was thinking recently poker is big because a person can play for a few years, get lucky and actually win a big tournament. this would never happen in a real sport like golf or pool as we know. people love the fact that they feel they can be the "best" at something without dedicating their life to it, hence its popularity. i personally think its a pitiful reason for a game to be popular, but that is neith here nor there.
golf and say tennis are popular because they are interesting sports with a lot of good-looking talent and interesting commentating like nick faldo or john mcenroe. i personally think this jimmy wetch guy i hear all the time sucks and is boring, but again, that is neither here nor there.
quite somply, we need to get with it. we need to model our sport after the sports that have done well (tennis, golf) as best we can, use what works. we dont do that.
golf and say tennis are popular because they are interesting sports with a lot of good-looking talent and interesting commentating like nick faldo or john mcenroe. i personally think this jimmy wetch guy i hear all the time sucks and is boring, but again, that is neither here nor there.
quite somply, we need to get with it. we need to model our sport after the sports that have done well (tennis, golf) as best we can, use what works. we dont do that.
What the game needs
I think the IPT had the right idea.
Round Robin format in groups.
Also - get rid of the alternate break.
Have less tournaments - there are way to many tournaments.
Bigger payouts at these events.
Also you have to earn your way on the tour and make the cut or your back in line to earning your tour card.
I have looked in to the history of pocket billiards.
In the 20's Ralph Greenleaf made as much money as Babe Ruth. It was the highest payday for a player based on time and economy.
Also the New York times had all Billiard covered in the sports page it seems until Johnston City.
So it seems that Gambling has hurt the game.
If you want it to be on TV live and covered you can not have players doing business.,
1991 Steve Wynn had the first Challenge of Champions 8 players $50,000
all the players had real odds in the casino you could bet on.
Well who wins Mike LeBron the highest dog on the board. It was so fixed. It smelled like the 1919 BlackSox's..
Steve Wynn said I am done. Than came ESPN and the players said what's in it for us. See whats going on.
Ok..
First you need to have a Commisioner.
A non-player who can make the right calls.
Next you have to setup the formats for NON-TV.
Use the Internet for streaming for free and get your your sponsers will have caption like soccer so the players are not standing around.
Have all he matches on the stream.
Also get Stan James involved if you want the odds set.
Take the Bill Gates approach. Give it away and create a need.
Eliminate the BCA they have not done anything for the Pros in some time and the Hall of Fame in the last few years is a joke. As well as they have the 14.1 champions only going back the last few years. When it was the BCA who was setting up the tournaments that Willie Mosconi - Irving Crane - Etc.. were winning in the 20's to 60's.
Did anyone in the BCA research any of this.
Also look at what is working the WPBA..
If you do not show for a tournament you have a 2 tournament penalty.
If you are a tournament player you are expected to show and play.
I also would have Tournaments in
8 ball
9 ball
10 ball
14.1
one pocket
And a bonus at the end for top players point standings.
You also have to keep all stats.
I think you also should have the stats for
Win Loss record against the opponent
Players name should also have what Cue's they are using like WPC does.
Break - Jump and Playing cue.
This will promote business.
This would be tough to get off the ground but if you are looking at what needs to be done. This in my opinion would be the way.
Also I think you have to have these locations in major cities
NY - Chicago - etc.
These Cities supported the sport long ago.. And I think we have moved away from this.. by going into Casino's where High Rollers are given Comp Tickets and they may or may not show.
Pool Fans have to support the tour.
Just my 2 cents
I think the IPT had the right idea.
Round Robin format in groups.
Also - get rid of the alternate break.
Have less tournaments - there are way to many tournaments.
Bigger payouts at these events.
Also you have to earn your way on the tour and make the cut or your back in line to earning your tour card.
I have looked in to the history of pocket billiards.
In the 20's Ralph Greenleaf made as much money as Babe Ruth. It was the highest payday for a player based on time and economy.
Also the New York times had all Billiard covered in the sports page it seems until Johnston City.
So it seems that Gambling has hurt the game.
If you want it to be on TV live and covered you can not have players doing business.,
1991 Steve Wynn had the first Challenge of Champions 8 players $50,000
all the players had real odds in the casino you could bet on.
Well who wins Mike LeBron the highest dog on the board. It was so fixed. It smelled like the 1919 BlackSox's..
Steve Wynn said I am done. Than came ESPN and the players said what's in it for us. See whats going on.
Ok..
First you need to have a Commisioner.
A non-player who can make the right calls.
Next you have to setup the formats for NON-TV.
Use the Internet for streaming for free and get your your sponsers will have caption like soccer so the players are not standing around.
Have all he matches on the stream.
Also get Stan James involved if you want the odds set.
Take the Bill Gates approach. Give it away and create a need.
Eliminate the BCA they have not done anything for the Pros in some time and the Hall of Fame in the last few years is a joke. As well as they have the 14.1 champions only going back the last few years. When it was the BCA who was setting up the tournaments that Willie Mosconi - Irving Crane - Etc.. were winning in the 20's to 60's.
Did anyone in the BCA research any of this.
Also look at what is working the WPBA..
If you do not show for a tournament you have a 2 tournament penalty.
If you are a tournament player you are expected to show and play.
I also would have Tournaments in
8 ball
9 ball
10 ball
14.1
one pocket
And a bonus at the end for top players point standings.
You also have to keep all stats.
I think you also should have the stats for
Win Loss record against the opponent
Players name should also have what Cue's they are using like WPC does.
Break - Jump and Playing cue.
This will promote business.
This would be tough to get off the ground but if you are looking at what needs to be done. This in my opinion would be the way.
Also I think you have to have these locations in major cities
NY - Chicago - etc.
These Cities supported the sport long ago.. And I think we have moved away from this.. by going into Casino's where High Rollers are given Comp Tickets and they may or may not show.
Pool Fans have to support the tour.
Just my 2 cents
pooltchr said:
My thoughts exactly, let me add a couple of ideas to it:
Have the games played in multiple disciplines, like 8-ball, 9-ball, straight pool, etc.
It'd be cool if you could bet on the games but realistically I don't see it happening.
Once a player is on a team, that's his job, no money matches or playing in other tournaments. When they're not playing in team matches, they're practicing or instructing younger (junior league?) players.
Streaming video on the internet, TV would be great but pool just isn't made for TV.
To the victor go the spoils!! Just like in local leagues, the team that wins the match gets the cash.
So how do the team owners make money? I'm not sure and therein lies the problem. If gambling was allowed, then they could take a cut off of every bet made. They could also take a cut from the winnings of the match. If you had rich owners it'd be like they were betting between themselves.
I think once the team concept establishes itself, the sky is the limit. It opens the doors to so much more, just like in the major sports.
There's been some pretty good ideas in this thread!
pool needs to be cool!
the players need to market themselves better....
"the pool players on tv look like nerds, why is that?"
i have been asked this question 2 times by my friends that dont play pool....if you want pool to go mainstream you have to make it the cool thing to do.....although they are great players, Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland are prime examples of why people dont buy there own stick or take the game seriously...i mean no disrespect to Efren or Earl i am just stating facts.
Just think if a documentary or tv series was made on the events of true road players.....i think the public would go crazy, people love to gamble and poker has proven that.....
let me pose a question for you.......would you be more interested in who won the US Open or who won the most money in cash games in the practice room?
actually i think i am going to poll this...
the players need to market themselves better....
"the pool players on tv look like nerds, why is that?"
i have been asked this question 2 times by my friends that dont play pool....if you want pool to go mainstream you have to make it the cool thing to do.....although they are great players, Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland are prime examples of why people dont buy there own stick or take the game seriously...i mean no disrespect to Efren or Earl i am just stating facts.
Just think if a documentary or tv series was made on the events of true road players.....i think the public would go crazy, people love to gamble and poker has proven that.....
let me pose a question for you.......would you be more interested in who won the US Open or who won the most money in cash games in the practice room?
actually i think i am going to poll this...
PunchOut said:
Poll awayyyyyyyyyyy! I'm going to use CTE to align my voting finger, or maybe Eclipse, or ..... oh wait ..... I better wait to see where the mouse is cause I might have to use BHE ......... crap, why do I always think in terms of pool. Now watch, I'll use a pick on my finger tip ... before chalking it of course.
cmbwsu and Paul Schofield
Bob, you have stated the situation right on the mark! I know of ONE sucessful proprietor of a poolroom that has been in business for many years and he has put alot of effort to maintain a place that customers can enjoy themselves. His room is a good example of how a poolroom business should be/ Paul Schofield is the guy and he is a good player and has a room in Erie PA called Gold Crown Billiards. I live 90 miles from there but visit his room when I'm in the area. I wish there were more owners like Paul. Kudos to Paul! Also to you Bob for your interest and support of our sport. I hope that live streaming online will help get more public attention other than the current pool enthusiasts. This will take time, effort and funding. Thanks for the streaming list. I check it out regularly and have chatted with you.
Curly
cmbwsu said:
Bob, you have stated the situation right on the mark! I know of ONE sucessful proprietor of a poolroom that has been in business for many years and he has put alot of effort to maintain a place that customers can enjoy themselves. His room is a good example of how a poolroom business should be/ Paul Schofield is the guy and he is a good player and has a room in Erie PA called Gold Crown Billiards. I live 90 miles from there but visit his room when I'm in the area. I wish there were more owners like Paul. Kudos to Paul! Also to you Bob for your interest and support of our sport. I hope that live streaming online will help get more public attention other than the current pool enthusiasts. This will take time, effort and funding. Thanks for the streaming list. I check it out regularly and have chatted with you.
Curly
[/highlight]
curly said:
If Paul (Gold Crown Billiards) decides to live stream please let me know here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=125477&page=2
I would [highlight]really[/highlight] appreciate your input here as well: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=126147
Be Chatting with yea Curly
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