What will it take to Jump start Pool in America

[gunzby]

its going to take the companies making millions of dollars every year off of us and league players to contribute back to the sport. the same way golf sponsors drop millions of dollars on a weekend tourney. the interest of watching a match with a first prize of 5k is not as interesting as 100k or more. thank viking for there tour but ask them why they are a million dollar buisness every year and the payouts at there tour stops are 2k.

the player points are helping the same way tennis players are ranked in the world. u dont see alot of tennis on tv but sponsors are paying top dollar and have huge events.

also look how many people are playing texas holdem after the start of the wsop. look at how much its grown over the past 6 years. its unreal. so my answer is huge payouts. if u build it they will come.

also espn needs to give the men some airtime. im tired of watching women not run out. no offense to the ladies.

Companies dealing with pool just can't do that. Think about it. You buy a cue and that cue could possibly last you the rest of your life. The only reason to buy another one is to want change. You buy a set of balls and the only reason to buy another set is change or because they're chipped or faded. The same goes with cloth.

The only thing that is an essential thing which is constant supply is chalk and of course accessories (tips and tools) just because they get used up or lost.

It's not like golf which is evolving in clubs and balls. Even if the balls weren't evolving you would still need to buy em because you lose so many.

What they need is a high dollar tourney which of course would have a high dollar pay out. A WSOP (World Series of Pool) or another thought (I'm full of em these last few days) a World Hustlers Tourney.

The rules of that one would be easy. They would have to of course play in Vegas or other area that allows gambling. It would be $10k entry, televised for effect, race to 10 and the players would have to bet before lagging. The money would be put on a table before the lag. To make it even more interesting side pots could be made at any point during the match (I bet $5000 you can't make a good hit etc).

The bonus in a tournament like this is that there is money in second to last all the way to 1st for the players and the people watching get to see things they just can't believe. In the WSOP ppl were amazed that someone bet a mill on a hand until they realized this guy is betting chips and not money. In this tourney it is real money and it's theirs.

I either need a notebook, or I'm a dumbass......someone needs to let me know cuz I can't tell.

 

[Fatboy]

i'm going to start donating barboxes to boys clubs as often as I can, and also go by and shoot a few shots and beat up on them a little to motivate them, of course i will let them win some too, to keep them interested, i'm getting involved much as i can, one way or the other. tables or my time or both-IT HAS TO BE DONE NOW!!!

 

[Johnnyt]

As far as poker goes, just about anyone can learn to play decent poker in a short while...or at least think they can. Some of them get lucky and place in big tournaments. A lot of them win once a month in their weekly card games and feel they are good.

In pool, not so much. They can't kid themselves about how good they are at it. Either you can run some balls or you can't. Very little LUCK in pool compared to poker. Enter any regional pool tournament after playing pool for only a few months and see how you do. I'll tell you...two and out. Getting good at pool takes years for most. In fact you really never stop learning. Poker you don't need to put in that kind of time, and after six months you could be pretty good and get lucky and cash at a major tournament.

If I had the money and had the job of promoting pool I'd use the theme in commercials of comparing pool to poker. Show them how lucky poker is and how much skill you need to play pool. Like poker is luck, pool takes skill. Give them advice on taking lessons from one of the many pool schools there are. Maybe pool schools could start sending cream of the crop students to regional tournaments. That wouldn't cost much. Have them wear a patch on their shirt with your school name on it. I think the money would come back to break even at the least.

You need a national organization, advertise pool, a GOOD pool movie wouldn't hurt either. If pool started to be a buzz word like poker you'd see how fast Hollywood would make a pool movie.

Like I said before, we will never see ALL the pros that call themselves a pro make money at pool...there are just too many of them. But if the players could agree to let a few good promoters and money men run a national tour it would be good for up to 500 hundred of them. As soon as you have a few players with household names the rest will fall into place. JMO. Johnnyt

 

[ironman]

money, and more money. ala ipt except without the con artist running it.


and a REAL hollywood movie. One with a big star and a real budget.

More money is the obvious answer, but, who are you goingto sell that to and what are you selling is the real problem as I see it.

We here at AZ love pool and most about it, We though are just a fraction of the audience the game needs. That to me is the problem. Brunwick, Diamond, and Olhausen are going to sell only so many tables and profit enough to bankroll the game.All the cuemakers combined couldn't do it.

KT and the IPT was nothing more than a goofy fantasy and con job and one that many have not recovered from yet, and many won't.

To go outside the industry is a very hard sell. The airlines don't get the business from the pool world to justify such a comittment. Let's face it, this is not the NFL, NBA, or MLB. There are though more people playing pol lately than in either of these sports.

IMO, the answer doesn't lie with just one sponsor or one bug chunk of change, it is going to have to coome from several willing to Pony up many bit's of change. We need several investors to come forward and see it through for more than just one year.

This would be a huge undertaking for anyone and I can't see who in the world would be willing to take the reins and go with it.
There are many who are more than capable of idntifying the problems. We need the big solution guy or team.

 

[OneArmed]

I don't think poker is a good example of anything.

I watched the World Series of Poker last week on TV and the announcer noted that the winner of the main event was the sixth consecutive amateur winner. People play poker for the same reason they play the lottery --- because there's a chance at great fame and fortune, and even though it's not likely, it's worth a shot. Poker players, like lottery players, as a group are losing money, with no money added at the World Series of Poker. but the top guys are walking away with so much that it entices potential participants. When six amateurs in a row win the World Pool Championship, pool can expect fields of thousands willing to ante up a $10,000 entry fee.

Another issue is that Poker is an adult's game. Only a few who play in the World Series of Poker are young. Taking the poker approach is fine if you want to keep out the kids, and maybe that would work. My guess, however, is that it would not.

The unsuitability of the typical poolroom for kids was drilled home for me earlier today when I shot at a poolroom (not my usual room) generally considered one of the New York City area's better ones. There was action in progress and there was sharking, gamesmanship, name calling, loud foul language and a generally boisterous atmosphere. The room management did nothing to discourage the gamblers from this kind of behavior. I recall looking at my opponent and commenting "if you want to know why pool in America is in trouble, just listen. If you were here with your kid, is there any chance that you wouldn't leave rather than subject a youngster to this?" A kid-friendly poolroom is neither a reality nor a priority in most of the poolrooms you find, and it's a sad truth in our game.

Kids, far more than adults, idolize sports stars, but if we continue to manage pool in America in a way that deal the kids out of the poolroom, few young people will ever care about pro pool players, and for that very reason, pro pool players will never be a) big stars, or b) popular choices to sell key products to some very important consumer groups.

Pool can continue to embrace and be defined by its seedier side, but such a direction is fundamentally at odds with attracting youthful players, which I believe is the only path to achieving the kind of vitality we all dream of in this sport.

I agree completely. Having the local "golfers" hooting and hollering, throwing cues and/or insults, and it can keep even serious players away, not to mention kids.

More and more pool rooms in my area have turned into bars with lots of pool tables, not many kid friendly places around any more. I understand the need to supplement income with the sale of alcohol, but it seems that local pool around here for the most part revolves around liquor-drinking league play.

You need those 16 year old kids to start playing. You aren't going to get many like me (I started playing at age 27). I needed something to do after I quit drinking, and turned to pool. But now, pool is turning its back on me by having all the places become bars

 

[cmbwsu]

Having the local "golfers" hooting and hollering, throwing cues and/or insults, and it can keep even serious players away, not to mention kids.

Can and does!!!

More and more pool rooms in my area have turned into bars with [color-red]lots of[/color] pool tables, not many kid friendly places around any more.

Change "lots of" to "fewer" and you got the situation here

You need those 16 year old kids to start playing. You aren't going to get many like me (I started playing at age 27).

This is so true. I have a large pool class -- all are college students and had not even picked up a stick until signing up for my class.

I needed something to do after I quit drinking, and turned to pool. But now, pool is turning its back on me by having all the places become bars

I know how you must feel; however, I don't think pool itself created this situation -- rather a myriad of "other things too long to list here" (starting with economics)! Hang in there on this one -- pool has not abandoned you and never will. Get lost in it rather than getting lost in the situations that created the aforementioned obvious areas of concern.!

Now, what did you do with that rack?:grin:

[size=+2]Bob[/size]

 

[CharlesUFarley]

A reality show that embraces gambling (drama) and shows the real personalities of the players (villains/heroes) is the answer. The viewing public would get to know the characters, thereby becoming connected with them. Look what the World Poker Tour did for poker...the holecard camera got the audience involved and poker exploded. Look what the Ultimate Fighter tv show did for mixed martial arts.....poker and fighting were fringe sports before those two shows...now they are the biggest things on television.

 

[cmbwsu]

A reality show that embraces gambling (drama) and shows the real personalities of the players (villains/heroes) is the answer. The viewing public would get to know the characters, thereby becoming connected with them. Look what the World Poker Tour did for poker...the holecard camera got the audience involved and poker exploded. Look what the Ultimate Fighter tv show did for mixed martial arts.....poker and fighting were fringe sports before those two shows...now they are the biggest things on television.

I think you got something there Charles. The American people follow in kind to what the boob tube spews out -- just ask any politician!

[size=+2]Bob[/size]

 

[chefjeff]

I'm just wondering out loud here, and don't have the answer, but I'd like to hear more about the link between how strong pro pool is and how popular pool is in America. People in these threads often attribute the downslide in pool's general popularity to the sorry state of pro pool. Do you guys think that this is the case? I played a lot of pool in high school and college, and I doubt that any of my buddies had ever heard of any pro pool players other than Minnesota Fats. I don't think that TCOM (which came out while I was in college) gave pool a huge bump amongst my friends.

(snip).

Good point. League pool is going as well as ever here.

Perhaps that's where the "jumping point" should start?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Quesports]

It might be helpful if there was one association governing pro events and possibly one doing the same with amateur leagues. Say for instance you had a team that won the APA finals then compete against the team that won the BCA finals for a winner take all scenario. It does appear that the amateur side of league pool is doing quite well and this may be a way of getting some air time. It would be real people playing for some potential big bucks. Team events like The Mosconi Cup seem to be more exciting..

Dan

 

[Mowem down]

If I had the money and time I would do what I talked about in my thread "1RV and 3 good players".

I think the IPT had some good ideas. It just had a (proven) scammer running the show. Somthing I thought of, that I realized they did was to show pool the way they show golf. Skip from table to table. You could have a small delay that way if there was some realy good shots you could edit them in. People would have a chance to see more players, and by the end of the tourney they would have some history...

 

[sjm]

My views were touched upon briefly in post #12 of this thread, and I have often contended on the AZB forum that, in my opinion, pool is doing very little to make the poolroom attractive to some demographic groups that it badly needs to be really successful.

At the heart of the matter is that pool has an identity crisis, a point made by a few others in this thread. It would be easy to argue that pool should focus on the demographic groups that it tends to attract, and from my vantage point, this is what happens in most of America's poolrooms. This approach may even make short-term sense, but I wonder whether it makes long-term sense. After all, pool's problem is that it does not have a history of attracting demographic groups most attractive to advertisers.

Pool is, as usual, at the crossroads. The present appproach of most poolroom proprietors, in my view, is to try to satisfy the demographic groups that the game traditionally attracts. Members of these demographic groups are keen on gambling, woofing, and foul language and are not turned off much by those who are boisterous or have a slovenly appearance. Maybe pool should remain on this course, but if it does, we should stop asking ourselves why there isn't much money in the game. I, personally, would prefer that pool take a different course.

One could argue that if the pool industry were to gamble on attracting the demographic groups that have the spending and investment power to help it really thrive, it chances scaring away some its traditional clientele. I, for one, think it's a gamble worth taking.

 

[Cameron Smith]

My views were touched upon briefly in post #12 of this thread, and I have often contended on the AZB forum that, in my opinion, pool is doing very little to make the poolroom attractive to some demographic groups that it badly needs to be really successful.

At the heart of the matter is that pool has an identity crisis, a point made by a few others in this thread. It would be easy to argue that pool should focus on the demographic groups that it tends to attract, and from my vantage point, this is what happens in most of America's poolrooms. This approach may even make short-term sense, but I wonder whether it makes long-term sense. After all, pool's problem is that it does not have a history of attracting demographic groups most attractive to advertisers.

Pool is, as usual, at the crossroads. The present appproach of most poolroom proprietors, in my view, is to try to satisfy the demographic groups that the game traditionally attracts. Members of these demographic groups are keen on gambling, woofing, and foul language and are not turned off much by those who are boisterous or have a slovenly appearance. Maybe pool should remain on this course, but if it does, we should stop asking ourselves why there isn't much money in the game. I, personally, would prefer that pool take a different course.

One could argue that if the pool industry were to gamble on attracting the demographic groups that have the spending and investment power to help it really thrive, it chances scaring away some its traditional clientele. I, for one, think it's a gamble worth taking.

I agree with everything here. However the problem as I see it is that there doesn't seem to be any marketing in pool. Any kind of promotions are focused entirely on the sub-culture of pool players and serious players (who are a sub-culture within a sub-culture). There needs to be an effort to reach out and develop a new audience. The UFC accomplished that in a BIG way with the Ultimate Fighter.

I've always wanted to see a billiards company of any kind involve themselves in some market research (yes, those annoying survey people on the phone). I think it is important that we learn about our audience and potential audience, rather than continue guessing at what the majority of the public wants.

 

[cmbwsu]

Pool is doing very little to make the poolroom attractive to some demographic groups that it badly needs to be really successful.

A pool has an identity crisis...

After all, pool's problem is that it does not have a history of attracting demographic groups most attractive to advertisers.

One could argue that if the pool industry were to gamble on attracting the demographic groups that have the spending and investment power to help it really thrive, it chances scaring away some its traditional clientele. [highlight]I, for one, think it's a gamble worth taking.[/highlight]

I could not agree more[size=+2]☝[/size]. Customer satisfaction should be at the top of every business owner's list of concerns -- we all know this. We also know that the same problems have existed in pool halls for years and years yet nothing is ever done to correct them. Things such as: proper table/equipment maintenance , better food, lack of storage spaces for clothing and equipment, dirty restrooms (especially ladies -- if they don't like it they don't come back), little/no employee knowledge, poorly run leagues/tournaments, attitudes toward newbies, to few in-house teachers/motivators, absence of "available" equipment repair/service, terrible "table to square footage ratio", lack of proper seating ...... and so on! We gotta start keeping customer satisfaction in mind at all times and leaving good first, middle, and last impressions.

 

[mnorwood]

Can you answer this question?

First:
there is a $500,000,000 stadium being built (Tampa Bay)

Question:
What would that be equal to in the Pocket Billiard industry?

Pocket Billiards needs a new and exciting VISION and someone to make the VISION, reality.

Currently there isn't a product that is worth investing in to the tune of $500Million, is there?

The existing state of pool and its players does not offer any chance of creating change, just status quo. The only change that Pool and its Players can see is a decline in Pool's popularity.

Where are the Visionaries?

If your interested you can read my vision for the game at my website. http://www.forcefollow.com

Here is a synopsis:
1. Pool players and organizations have to get young people involved!!!! High school and college programs. Lots of work there not sure if anyone is interested.

2. The pro game must evolve. Bigger table, tighter pockets, different format. This too involves work and change.

3. People who care about the sport must work together. Not hoard their resources and knowledge. Again very novel idea.

Sorry fellas but the status quo is not going to do. A glorified version of tours of old will not get this sport anywhere.

 

[pooltchr]

Other than a few (reletively speaking) hard core players like us, pool is not a spectator sport. It's a game that people want to PLAY, not to WATCH. Go to any local or regional tournament and the only spectators are the players, and in some cases, their significant other.

There have been some good suggestions as to how we get more people playing. Getting the younger generation involved is obviously the number one goal.

But how do we get people to WATCH. Fans of other sports usually have a player or a team they support. Let's use the NFL for example. I enjoy football, but I get excited when MY TEAM is playing. I've got a horse in the race. I don't play football, nor do most fans, but we support our teams. I think an idea would be to set up local teams to compete against other cities or regions. If the Carolina Chalkers were playing the Baltimore Breakers, all of a sudden, you get community support. Of course, the whole league system would have to be marketed properly, and that does require money. Team owners could buy franchises, pay their players, trade players, or whatever. The league as a whole would handle scheduling and negotiate tv time and sell advertising.

It might have to start on a small scale at first, but if the sport is going to grow, it MUST have widespread support beyond the poolplayers themselves. Civic pride is one avenue to use to begin building that kind of support.

Just another direction to consider.

Steve

 

[fd_colorado]

<snip> In pool, not so much. They can't kid themselves about how good they are at it. Either you can run some balls or you can't. Very little LUCK in pool compared to poker. Enter any regional pool tournament after playing pool for only a few months and see how you do. I'll tell you...two and out. Getting good at pool takes years for most. In fact you really never stop learning. Poker you don't need to put in that kind of time, and after six months you could be pretty good and get lucky and cash at a major tournament. <snip> Johnnyt

Exactly. My 20 year old nephew comes over to my house with a friend and I take them down to my foosball table and beat 'em silly. Their reply is, "We can beat you at video games!" And they are 100% correct.

We have a game that takes a long time to become proficient at and has no cheat codes that you can look up on the Internet if you plateau.

But that is just smoke. It is not the real problem...more in a minute.

When you look at the barriers to entry and sustainability in golf (make your own list, e.g., real estate required, etc.), they are absolutely huge.

But golf, hockey, football and baseball all have the potential for your kid growing up to be a well-paid pro who will support you in your old age.

So what pool needs to do is get the equipment into the hands of the kids as soon as they are able to hold a stick, have some competitions whereby the kids can compete and win money for their college funds...along with the possibility of making serious money as a pro player.

So if we can beat the other sports to the payday the parental support will follow.

 

[Scaramouche]

Apparently pool can only be played in commercial rooms or private homes.

Seems to me that member owned billiard clubs should be an alternative. But pool players don't have any interest - think it is as weird a suggestion as member owned bowling lanes

 

[md5key]

Kids aren't going to start playing unless there is more in it than just pool. If you took tables and put them in a big, well lit, perfect pool hall, and put a sign outside that said "FREE POOL FOR KIDS UNDER 18", I don't think you'd get very many people in there. You might get some traffic from 16-18y/o high school kids, but I think that'd be about it.

Take the same tables, put them in a "game room", with video games everywhere, put that game room within walking distance of a movie theatre or a mall, and I bet you'd have more kids in there than you could handle. Not all would be playing pool of course, but they would be spending time around tables, and that would make them more comfortable and willing to start playing.

 

[satman]

Where are the visionaries?????

Can you answer this question?

First:
there is a $500,000,000 stadium being built (Tampa Bay)

Question:
What would that be equal to in the Pocket Billiard industry?

Pocket Billiards needs a new and exciting VISION and someone to make the VISION, reality.

Currently there isn't a product that is worth investing in to the tune of $500Million, is there?

The existing state of pool and its players does not offer any chance of creating change, just status quo. The only change that Pool and its Players can see is a decline in Pool's popularity.

Where are the Visionaries?

First off, there are plenty of visionaries in our sport, they just don't have any money. Those that do have money, won't waste it. Everyone has an idea what needs to be done. Strict guidelines on behaviour, not just during the tournies, but overall. People caught dumping matches, kicked out of the tour, permanently. Other sanctions for certain types of violations. Decent pay at the tournaments, with PAYMENT GUARENTEED.
No matter how it's set up, or what the rules are, you'll have 100 different people, complaining about 100 different things. And of course, someone trying to sidestep all the rules, and figure a way to get the easy money today. Taking a chance of ruining a whole tour for a few hundred now.
Man, I sound pretty cynical. Why am I still messing around with this game? Oh, I forgot, I love it. And there are some very good people associated with this game.