What would SAM do?

[Patrick Johnson]

This is a sincere question that comes from my ignorance of the Supplemental Aiming Method (SAM) taught by some of our most respected instructors. I've narrowed the question down to a specific shot to keep the question focused.

The diagram shows a situation in a game of 8-Ball where the shooter (solids) has cleared all solids from the table and has a makeable shot on the 8 into the upper left corner (pocket A). All other possible pockets for the 8 are blocked by striped balls. The win is within reach if the shooter can make this shot.

The shooter has learned SAM and likes it, but SAM (at least as I know it) doesn't seem to offer a solution for this shot. All the available SAM shots (SAM-1, SAM-2, SAM-3, SAM-4, SAM-5 and SAM-6) are shown by the numbered ghost balls, including all their margins for error, but none go to pocket A.

Is this a shot where SAM, which is only supposed to be a supplemental aiming method after all, just doesn't apply? Does SAM say "make the adjustment however you can" or "use another method"? Or what?

No judgements here - just asking for my own education.

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

By the way, my "understanding" of the SAM system comes almost entirely from the Cue Tech materials on this page (about 9 posts down):

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=57805&page=8

 

[chefjeff]

I don't know about SAM's particulars, but that for me is a left/left. Ie, the left side of my stick lines up with the left side of the OB with the cuestick going through the center of the CB. High or low takes away the scratch in the side.

Sorry if this isn't what you're looking for.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't know about SAM's particulars, but that for me is a left/left. Ie, the left side of my stick lines up with the left side of the OB with the cuestick going through the center of the CB. High or low takes away the scratch in the side.

Sorry if this isn't what you're looking for.

Jeff Livingston

As I understand it, your lineup is a SAM-3 (half ball hit), which goes toward the first diamond on the long rail (see ghost balls #3 in the diagram). Do you do anything consciously to correct?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You have to view a system like this as extremely rudamentary. It's training wheels for the people who can barely keep balance. Even the beginner who has logged a few dozen hours should already have moved past this learning tool.

The sooner you begin to have faith in your own instincts, the faster you will improve. If you continue to work on it, you can improve to a point where you will be able to make adjustments as minute as 1/32 of an inch. The only thing that could inhibit your progress is if instead of putting faith in yourself, you put it in a system.

The best approach I advocate - Try playing pool as a child would. Look at the object ball and hit it without any effort to calculate a proper contact-point. The exercise should bring thoughts of comfort, naturalness, instinctive. It will feel almost second-nature and within a short while, you should see a noticeable improvement in pocketing.

 

[chefjeff]

As I understand it, your lineup is a SAM-3 (half ball hit), which goes toward the first diamond on the long rail (see ghost balls #3 in the diagram). Do you do anything consciously to correct?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

Be sure not to confuse a 1/2 ball hit with 1/2 ball aim. They're different. Perhaps that is your confusion?

But mine wasn't either. On mine, the left side of my stick lines up with the left side of the ob. That makes it much less than a 1/2 ball aim. A 1/2 ball aim is when the center of my stick lines up with the left edge of the OB.

Sense?

Jeff Livingston

 

[klockdoc]

This is a sincere question that comes from my ignorance of the Supplemental Aiming Method (SAM) taught by some of our most respected instructors. I've narrowed the question down to a specific shot to keep the question focused.

The diagram shows a situation in a game of 8-Ball where the shooter (solids) has cleared all solids from the table and has a makeable shot on the 8 into the upper left corner (pocket A). All other possible pockets for the 8 are blocked by striped balls. The win is within reach if the shooter can make this shot.

The shooter has learned SAM and likes it, but SAM (at least as I know it) doesn't seem to offer a solution for this shot. All the available SAM shots (SAM-1, SAM-2, SAM-3, SAM-4, SAM-5 and SAM-6) are shown by the numbered ghost balls, including all their margins for error, but none go to pocket A.

Is this a shot where SAM, which is only supposed to be a supplemental aiming method after all, just doesn't apply? Does SAM say "make the adjustment however you can" or "use another method"? Or what?

No judgements here - just asking for my own education.

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

I think some, (or at least one) of the angles is off slightly. I used your table and drew a half ball aim at the eight ball [see blue and brown lines]. This should be a 30 degree cut. It isn't right on, but fairly close to the necessary shot. I think your aim/feel adjusts for the necessary correction

CueTable Help

 

[klockdoc]

Be sure not to confuse a 1/2 ball hit with 1/2 ball aim. They're different. Perhaps that is your confusion?

Jeff Livingston

True. As Scott Lee pointed out in the earlier thread. 1/2 ball aim is a 30 degree cut - 1/2 ball hit is a 45 degree cut.

 

[RBLilly]

This is a sincere question that comes from my ignorance of the Supplemental Aiming Method (SAM) taught by some of our most respected instructors. I've narrowed the question down to a specific shot to keep the question focused.

The diagram shows a situation in a game of 8-Ball where the shooter (solids) has cleared all solids from the table and has a makeable shot on the 8 into the upper left corner (pocket A). All other possible pockets for the 8 are blocked by striped balls. The win is within reach if the shooter can make this shot.

The shooter has learned SAM and likes it, but SAM (at least as I know it) doesn't seem to offer a solution for this shot. All the available SAM shots (SAM-1, SAM-2, SAM-3, SAM-4, SAM-5 and SAM-6) are shown by the numbered ghost balls, including all their margins for error, but none go to pocket A.

Is this a shot where SAM, which is only supposed to be a supplemental aiming method after all, just doesn't apply? Does SAM say "make the adjustment however you can" or "use another method"? Or what?

No judgements here - just asking for my own education.

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

Not to sound like a jerk, but that diagram is incorrect. Without seeing it on the table I can't determine if it is a SAM 3, but I guarantee that it is on a SAM number. I shoot that shot all the time, and SAM 3 would more than likely take care of this shot. All your SAM number are incorrect in that diagram except for #1.

 

[mikepage]

Be sure not to confuse a 1/2 ball hit with 1/2 ball aim. They're different. Perhaps that is your confusion?

But mine wasn't either. On mine, the left side of my stick lines up with the left side of the ob. That makes it much less than a 1/2 ball aim. A 1/2 ball aim is when the center of my stick lines up with the left edge of the OB.

Sense?

Jeff Livingston

It makes sense to me.

I will address both of the above issues in my little video that I'll post up probably some time this afternoon.

 

[jsp]

Not to sound like a jerk, but that diagram is incorrect. Without seeing it on the table I can't determine if it is a SAM 3, but I guarantee that it is on a SAM number. I shoot that shot all the time, and SAM 3 would more than likely take care of this shot...

Alright, then move the CB or 8 ball a couple inches such that pocket completely bisects SAM2 and SAM3. I think that's what PJ is ultimately trying to get at.

 

[RBLilly]

I don't know about SAM's particulars, but that for me is a left/left. Ie, the left side of my stick lines up with the left side of the OB with the cuestick going through the center of the CB. High or low takes away the scratch in the side.

Sorry if this isn't what you're looking for.

Jeff Livingston

You sir just described a SAM #3........or at least for me it is a SAM #3. LOL

 

[klockdoc]

Alright, then move the CB or 8 ball a couple inches such that pocket completely bisects SAM2 and SAM3. I think that's what PJ is ultimately trying to get at.

Already did. See post #6. I think Pat made the mistake of creating the angles of hits versus aims. Simple mistake.

 

[PKM]

Question for the SAMmers:

Suppose you set up a CB and OB at random on the table. Now shoot a half-ball aim. What angle does it cut the OB?
Now repeat random setup and half-ball aim. What angle does it cut?

If it is always the same, doesn't that refute the "strong" version of SAM (that no adjustments are needed when changing the angle within a certain range)? If the half-ball aim is just a reference, then there's no disagreement.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Be sure not to confuse a 1/2 ball hit with 1/2 ball aim. They're different.

I think they're aimed the same. If you don't hit half-ball by aiming half-ball (CB center to OB edge), how do you do it? What other definition of half-ball is there?

But mine wasn't [half-ball] either. On mine, the left side of my stick lines up with the left side of the ob.

Oh, right - I overlooked that detail. But this is apart from our views of half-ball aim vs. half-ball hit.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not to sound like a jerk, but that diagram is incorrect. Without seeing it on the table I can't determine if it is a SAM 3, but I guarantee that it is on a SAM number. I shoot that shot all the time, and SAM 3 would more than likely take care of this shot. All your SAM number are incorrect in that diagram except for #1.

No problem. The point is that there are wide open spaces between these SAM angles, whatever they are, and the pocket you need to hit will often be in one of the gaps - at shot distances over 1 or 2 feet, that will happen a majority of the time (just visually compare the open spaces with the SAM angles at that distance from the OB).

How does SAM cope with those frequent situations?

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

I think they're aimed the same. If you don't hit half-ball by aiming half-ball (CB center to OB edge), how do you do it? What other definition of half-ball is there?

pj
chgo

In the SAM diagrams, # 3 is a half-ball aim. (half-ball overlap)
# 4 is a half-ball hit (quarter-ball overlap)

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Quote:Me:
I think they're aimed the same. If you don't hit half-ball by aiming half-ball (CB center to OB edge), how do you do it? What other definition of half-ball is there?

klockdoc:
In the SAM diagrams, # 3 is a half-ball aim. (half-ball overlap)
# 4 is a half-ball hit (quarter-ball overlap)

Whose terminology is this? I've never heard "half-ball hit" used this way.

I suppose it comes from the fact that the quarter-ball aim results in a contact point that's approximately halfway around the circumference to the edge of the ball, but I think it's unnecessarily confusing (and uncommon) to use different terms for the aim and the hit that results.

I believe the common definition of a half-ball hit is the hit that results from a half-ball aim (producing a 30-degree cut and a contact point that's 1/3 the way around the circumference from center to edge).

Anyway, this is a side topic, not important to the point of my original question, which is about the gaps between the SAM angles, which exist for most shots however you define the SAM angles.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

now you are getting somewhere

Patrick,

The terminology is unusual for most of us. However what you have to realize is that the terminology is what it is. You have to read what they say, not what you think they say. Even then it seems to me like they change horses in midstream on the SAM points, this may still be my lack of understanding though.

I have been looking at this for awhile and I had the same problem you do now, reading one thing and interpreting it as I would use the term. SAM is aim points, not contact points according to what I read. However SAM one through three seem to refer directly to aim points on the object ball while four and five can't possibly refer to aim points on the object ball if you are aiming through the center of the cue ball. I have to try to figure this out this afternoon.

The very first thing you must do to make heads or tails of SAM is to read what is there without bringing any preconceived assumptions into your reading. Also, my mental visualization is quite a bit different from what happens on the table. I am going to bring the diagrams to the table this afternoon and see what happens.

Download the images, print them, and work with them. I don't know if SAM works but I guarantee that this will vastly improve your ability to understand what they are trying to say or that is what I discovered when I did this.

Hu

Whose terminology is this? I've never heard "half-ball hit" used this way.

I suppose it comes from the fact that the quarter-ball aim results in a contact point that's approximately halfway around the circumference to the edge of the ball, but I think it's unnecessarily confusing (and uncommon) to use different terms for the aim and the hit that results.

I believe the common definition of a half-ball hit is the hit that results from a half-ball aim (producing a 30-degree cut and a contact point that's 1/3 the way around the circumference from center to edge).

pj
chgo

 

[mikepage]

Whose terminology is this? I've never heard "half-ball hit" used this way.[...]

Scott Lee referred to it the other day. I think I can see the motivation.
A 45 degree angle for the object ball is a result that is halfway between the extremes of a full hit (0 degrees) and a super thin cut (90 degrees). Neglecting throw it requires a little fuller hit than a quarter-ball overlap.

So although I can see why somebody might refer to it this way, I think the high potential for confusion with the ball-overlap "hit" terminology outweighs any potential benefit of the term.

 

[teebee]

I think Patrick Johnsons diagram is accurate. It represents an aiming systems weakest situation. (cue ball and object ball close together and far from the target). Thus the word "supplemental".
This does not make aiming systems useless or stupid. All methods of aiming including ghost ball or pure intuition are limited by the the players ability to incorporate and adapt them to thier own use.
I think some aiming systems make easy shots easier. (especially in pressure situations) If the object ball and target pocket happen to fall exact or within an obvious range of tolerance, which happens quite often, a half ball or quarter ball aim can be a very comforting visualisation to fall back on.
It seems to me that you can't have too many pictures of successful shots in your mind evan if no one system provides them all.