What would you do? - Fraudulent Table Sale

S

Sporto

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My ex-friend who has owned his own Billiard sales and service company for many years, sold me a table 11 months ago that he claimed was a Gold Crown III for $2200. I did not get a written receipt for the sale and paid cash. After several months of research (see table make/model thread) , it has been determined the table is a GC knock-off of unknown origin and therefore worth considerably less.

After repeated attempts to work something out with the seller, he is unwilling to exchange the table for a real Brunswick Gold Crown or take the table back and refund me the purchase price minus a setup fee of $250 or refund a portion of the original selling price. His attitude is "too bad, you bought it, it is close enough to a GC, stop bothering me...". He has misrepresented and sold at least one more table that I am aware of that is exactly like mine under the same pretenses to another individual for $2500.

I need some serious advice on how you would handle this situation if you were in my shoes.
 
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Sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds like you have already exhausted the most logical and reasonable options that I would have suggested to you. Any of your offers to this guy sound like a reasonable request.

You really do not have too many good options without proof of the sale. I am curious, does he deny that he sold you a knockoff table for a real gold crown price? If so, what is his defense? How did you pay? You will have built in protection with your credit card. You can open a dispute with them.

You could also take him to court. I hope you at least have proof of payment ( not paid in cash). If he admits in court that he misrepresented it as something other than what you got, you can recover your money. If you have no proof of misrepresentation ( no receipt, no witnesses, and no admissiion from him), you really don't have a case.

The only other thing you can do is tell as many people as you can about who he is and what he has done. I would suggest that you let him know of your intention prior to doing so, he may be more agreeable. Though I doubt it. Call the BBB. I know it aint much, but it is at least something.

Let us know how it plays out
 
Also find out about tha other fraudulant sale. You do not have a receipt, but does he? Together you may have a much better chance.
 
Sporto said:
My friend who has owned his own Billiard sales and service company for many years, sold me a table 11 months ago that he claimed was a Gold Crown III for $2200. I did not get a written receipt for the sale. After several months of research (see table make/model thread) , it has been determined the table is a GC knock-off of unknown origin and therefore worth considerably less.

After repeated attempts to work something out with the seller, he is unwilling to exchange the table for a real Brunswick Gold Crown or take the table back and refund me the purchase price minus a setup fee of $250 or refund a portion of the original selling price. His attitude is "too bad, you bought it, it is close enough to a GC, stop bothering me...". He has misrepresented and sold at least one more table that I am aware of that is exactly like mine under the same pretenses to another individual for $2500.

I need some serious advice on how you would handle this situation if you were in my shoes.
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You meant to say Ex Friend... Right ?... Looks like your going to have to keep it and forget it or try to sell it and cut your losses.
 
Sporto said:
My friend who has owned his own Billiard sales and service company for many years, sold me a table 11 months ago that he claimed was a Gold Crown III for $2200. I did not get a written receipt for the sale. After several months of research (see table make/model thread) , it has been determined the table is a GC knock-off of unknown origin and therefore worth considerably less.

After repeated attempts to work something out with the seller, he is unwilling to exchange the table for a real Brunswick Gold Crown or take the table back and refund me the purchase price minus a setup fee of $250 or refund a portion of the original selling price. His attitude is "too bad, you bought it, it is close enough to a GC, stop bothering me...". He has misrepresented and sold at least one more table that I am aware of that is exactly like mine under the same pretenses to another individual for $2500.

I need some serious advice on how you would handle this situation if you were in my shoes.
Click to expand...

If you can prove, in any way, that he advertised or indicated that what he sold to you, or the other individual, is a GC.....then I would get a lawyer.

In some states, if you had a witness with you that even heard him say the words that this was an authentic GC, then that is evidence enough.

You don't need friends that will mislead you, and sell you knock offs.
The fact that he didn't give you a receipt should have made you suspicious. He may not even be reporting it as an actual sale, and pocketing the money as "unseen" income to IRS.

I wouldn't discuss this with the guy. Maybe get a subpeona for his business records. Maybe you can file a case for suspicion of fraud to get the subpeona, but what do I know.....I'm not a lawyer.

If you don't want to get the law involved, maybe contact a local news station.....and ask them to have a reporter go under cover with their spy cams, and catch the guy telling them it is a GC. That may do more damage than putting the cuffs on him.
 
Poolpro,
Thanks for your reply, you seem very reasonable. The seller still believes the table is a Gold Crown. We shot on the same valley league team for an entire season and all of our teammates were aware of this "Gold Crown" sale. I do have e-mails from him where he states the table he sold me is a Gold Crown. RealKingCobra from this site came to my house and examined the table first hand and said it is definately no way in heck a GC.

I have mentioned Small Claims Court, a letter to the BBB and public posting of his name and business name in any and all billiard forums that I can find. His reply after reading that e-mail: "you can't be serious?". He made no attempt to reach some sort of agreement with me. He won't tell me who the second buyer is but he was bragging about the second table sale to a friend of mine and sent him a pic so I have posted a pic of that gameroom in a separate thread, hopefully someone will recognize it and contact me.
 
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Sporto said:
Poolpro,
Thanks for your reply, you seem very reasonable. The seller still believes the table is a Gold Crown. We shot on the same valley league team for an entire season and all of our teammates were aware of this "Gold Crown" sale. I do have e-mails from him where he states the table he sold me is a Gold Crown. RealKingCobra from this site came to my house and examined the table first hand and said it is definately no way in heck a GC.

I have mentioned Small Claims Court, a letter to the BBB and public posting of his name and business name in any and all billiard forums that I can find. His reply after reading that e-mail: "you can't be serious?". He made no attempt to reach some sort of agreement with me. He won't tell me who the second buyer is but he was bragging about the second table sale to a friend of mine and sent him a pic so I have posted a pic of that gameroom in a separate thread, hopefully someone will recognize it and contact me.
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Sport, I have heard these kind of stories many times, toooo many. I am a table mechanic with a newly started business. If I told you some of the jobs and testimonies from some customers I have serviced over the past two months you would be sick. This is a big problem in my industry. There are soooo many "SCABS" doing work out there it is accually hurting my business alraedy, only two months into it. I love what I do, and consider myself a professional. I have all tax stamps, and insurance. My overhead is not cheap what so ever. These "SCABS" are ruining us professionals, doing jobs for next to nothing. I have just serviced a new GC, I wanted to find the guy who did the job and strangle him. He hustled this beatiful couple, made them believe he was the best in the industry. Well little do you know, the table was off by a full bubble, and that was just a start of the issues. He was so good at bullsh$ttin I had to show the customer each problem that he caused from his terrible job personally, because they refused to believe me. But when it was all said and done.........my work explained it all. The point I am making here is not to sell my buisness but to make all aware of what the hell is going on out there in this industry. Don't always go w/ the "CHEAPEST" guy, and most important, check them out before they do the work. Ask for a federal buisness #, tax stamp #, and or a insurance policy. These are the things that prove that he has a legit business at the least. And always get a invoice, "SCABS" will not have one for you. I am sorry for your loss, and I hope this guy comes clean........

Frankie
 
frankwhite said:
Sport, I have heard these kind of stories many times, toooo many. I am a table mechanic with a newly started business. If I told you some of the jobs and testimonies from some customers I have serviced over the past two months you would be sick. This is a big problem in my industry. There are soooo many "SCABS" doing work out there it is accually hurting my business alraedy, only two months into it. I love what I do, and consider myself a professional. I have all tax stamps, and insurance. My overhead is not cheap what so ever. These "SCABS" are ruining us professionals, doing jobs for next to nothing. I have just serviced a new GC, I wanted to find the guy who did the job and strangle him. He hustled this beatiful couple, made them believe he was the best in the industry. Well little do you know, the table was off by a full bubble, and that was just a start of the issues. He was so good at bullsh$ttin I had to show the customer each problem that he caused from his terrible job personally, because they refused to believe me. But when it was all said and done.........my work explained it all. The point I am making here is not to sell my buisness but to make all aware of what the hell is going on out there in this industry. Don't always go w/ the "CHEAPEST" guy, and most important, check them out before they do the work. Ask for a federal buisness #, tax stamp #, and or a insurance policy. These are the things that prove that he has a legit business at the least. And always get a invoice, "SCABS" will not have one for you. I am sorry for your loss, and I hope this guy comes clean........

Frankie
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I hear that....
I think it would be in the best interest for the pool industry to prevent "SCABS" from doing bad business. Committing fraud and tax evasion are serious offenses.

When my table was installed/set up, the table mechanic and his assistant signed and dated the slate bed. They made it clear to me before I bought the table that is an Olhausen, but with some parts outsourced to Asia...which is fine with me. They warranty the parts and installation/set up.
 
If you can talk to the guy in person bring a recorder with you,you can get a digital one for like $30 at Walmart.Go discuss it with him,there is your proof,tell him your taking him to court if he doesnt refund some money and then if he blows you off go to court.Thats the best advice i can give you in this matter,good luck. :cool:
 
picket & leaflet

Sporto said:
My ex-friend who has owned his own Billiard sales and service company for many years, sold me a table 11 months ago that he claimed was a Gold Crown III for $2200. I did not get a written receipt for the sale and paid cash. After several months of research (see table make/model thread) , it has been determined the table is a GC knock-off of unknown origin and therefore worth considerably less.

After repeated attempts to work something out with the seller, he is unwilling to exchange the table for a real Brunswick Gold Crown or take the table back and refund me the purchase price minus a setup fee of $250 or refund a portion of the original selling price. His attitude is "too bad, you bought it, it is close enough to a GC, stop bothering me...". He has misrepresented and sold at least one more table that I am aware of that is exactly like mine under the same pretenses to another individual for $2500.

I need some serious advice on how you would handle this situation if you were in my shoes.
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Years ago, I put a deposit on a brass bed & as the delivery date came & went, I realized that the merchant was going out of business & would disappear with the money.

I gathered some very large & unkempt friends together & set up an informational picket line including a leaflet telling the story of the transaction. After numerous potential customers were discouraged, he offered me a check. After another hour, he came up with cash.
 
Sporto said:
I do have e-mails from him where he states the table he sold me is a Gold Crown. RealKingCobra from this site came to my house and examined the table first hand and said it is definately no way in heck a GC.

I have mentioned Small Claims Court, a letter to the BBB and public posting of his name and business name in any and all billiard forums that I can find. His reply after reading that e-mail: "you can't be serious?". He made no attempt to reach some sort of agreement with me. He won't tell me who the second buyer is but he was bragging about the second table sale to a friend of mine and sent him a pic so I have posted a pic of that gameroom in a separate thread, hopefully someone will recognize it and contact me.
Click to expand...

I would think that your email is proof enough for a conviction. Small claims court?....Fraud is a federal offense. So, is tax evasion.

If you someone was selling Ferraris, and they were actually Pontiac Fieros with Ferrari body style kits, then that person would be in the slammer....in a heartbeat.
 
knockoff Gold Crown ??

I'm very curious and interested in the GC knockoff. I was very surprised to hear that such
tables existed.

I hope more details of these tables come forth... Perhaps enough to allow potential buyers
to determine the "authenticity".
 
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we have been looking at this table for quite a while. Since the first minute
everybody on the mech forum saw it knew it was not a gold crown. if you have anything from him that says it is a crown, its going to be a quick case. nobody out there that knows brunswicks is going to say this is a crown. If you have no receipt and he still claims this is one, tell him to send a receipt stating it. i dont think that will happen though.
 
I bet your table is like mine....I got mine from Boston mfg under the Victory 9' pro name. I knew it was a copy of a GC China made table going in, and having set up many tables it went together pretty easy and plays great.. My price was 2600 FOB with all the goodies, so it is in line with your pricing. Mine looks like a black and chrome GC4 with flush pockets but no slate levelers.

I have pics of it here on AZ somewhere? lemme check. Maybe you can find out if yours came from the same place as mine.

scroll down to see pics
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=24645&highlight=boston
 
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many thanks

Wow, thanks. I always wondered why those Victory tables
looked so much like a Gold Crown. I never saw one in
real life though, just ads.

I may have a picture handy, I'll post it shortly if I do...

EDITs:
link 1 -> http://www.billiardsauthority.com/p...allation/thevictory9ftpooltablebyberinger.cfm

Well, I quickly found the link above, but it seems the pictures I were looking for are
on some backup CDs. Probably better that way, since the table in those pictures has
a bright orange cloth (cool looking, but I'd get sick of it in a few days).

link 2 -> The "Olio" table also, which is what I think had the orange cloth in my older pics.
http://oliointl.trustpass.alibaba.com/product/11841038/Pool_Commercial_Table.html

I doubt I could tell any of these tables apart, even if I was standing (cueless, not clueless)
in front of them.
 
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okinawa77 said:
I would think that your email is proof enough for a conviction. Small claims court?....Fraud is a federal offense. So, is tax evasion.

If you someone was selling Ferraris, and they were actually Pontiac Fieros with Ferrari body style kits, then that person would be in the slammer....in a heartbeat.
Click to expand...

After talking to several people they said a win in small claims court doesn't mean much as you still need to collect which puts me right back in my same situation. I don't really want to spend $5,000 to get back $2,000 in real court as even if I win, I still lose.

Olio is proud of their tables, they badge them. This table is totally unbadged like a good fake would be. Gerry mentioned his Victory has 2 leveling bolts in the middle of the slates, my table does not have these.

Very little chance this guy reported the income from this sale in his tax return.
 
Sometimes a small claims lawsuit will prompt action. I've done it a few times for my pool room and people (companies) usually want to settle. Your friend may have a reputation he wants to uphold, so why not try? It usually only costs 30 bucks or so, and if he has decent credit, if you get a judgment against him and he doesn't come thru it will ruin his credit.

Danny
 
Common Misconception

Johnnyt said:
You can't record someone w/o telling them first. Johnnyt
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You can record someone without telling them first. As long as one of the involved parties involved is aware of the recording it can be used as evidence. This also applies to phone conversations.
 
If you have know proof of purchase then you are SOL.Did you pay cash use a credit card or write a check for the purchase.
 
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