What's Going On With Custom Cue Prices?

[skins]

Are you talking about the "Balabushka" line of cues from Adam Custom Cues? Those weren't sold while George was alive. They resulted from a licensing agreement after his death. And Adam Custom Cues had a lot of other lines as well.

Another reason why that posts initial response brings nothing to the table as to what it initially claimed.

Can machines guided by numerical control make the product better? Yes and possibly NO. Do they guarantee it? Absolutely Not. Cues are built with the help of machines. In the last 50+ years those machines have been pretty much just as "tight" (accurate) as they are today. The fact that some of those machines are being controlled autonomously using CNC, does not guarantee a better nor more desired result. The final "result" commands and depends on the prep and constant control and scrutiny of those machines and the careful hands on work which needs to be done after, which is extensive. Cues are an art form which require vision and feel beyond what JUST someone can program a machine to execute.

There is a reason why cues built by makers such as Gus and George are so sought after today. It's because their abilities to control the outcome of the product, regardless of and beyond the machinery used, were so outstanding. To most cue makers who understand, their work will always be a standard used as the ultimate barometer for their own construction, and deservedly so, which if successful will also be recognized and admired by those who can notice the difference just as with any other item of superior quality.

 

[Type79]

Another reason why that posts initial response brings nothing to the table as to what it initially claimed.

Can machines guided by numerical control make the product better? Yes and possibly NO. Do they guarantee it? Absolutely Not. Cues are built with the help of machines. In the last 50+ years those machines have been pretty much just as "tight" (accurate) as they are today. The fact that some of those machines are being controlled autonomously using CNC, does not guarantee a better nor more desired result. The final "result" commands and depends on the prep and constant control and scrutiny of those machines and the careful hands on work which needs to be done after, which is extensive. Cues are an art form which require vision and feel beyond what JUST someone can program a machine to execute.

There is a reason why cues built by makers such as Gus and George are so sought after today. It's because their abilities to control the outcome of the product, regardless of and beyond the machinery used, were so outstanding. To most cue makers who understand, their work will always be a standard used as the ultimate barometer for their own construction, and deservedly so, which if successful will also be recognized and admired by those who can notice the difference just as with any other item of superior quality.

Probably the best explanation I've seen of the importance of the craftsman as well as what CNC can potentially contribute to the final product.

Thank you.

 

[bstroud]

Can machines guided by numerical control make the product better? Yes and possibly NO. Do they guarantee it? Absolutely Not. Cues are built with the help of machines. In the last 50+ years those machines have been pretty much just as "tight" (accurate) as they are today. The fact that some of those machines are being controlled autonomously using CNC, does not guarantee a better nor more desired result. The final "result" commands and depends on the prep and constant control and scrutiny of those machines and the careful hands on work which needs to be done after, which is extensive. Cues are an art form which require vision and feel beyond what JUST someone can program a machine to execute.

There is a reason why cues built by makers such as Gus and George are so sought after today. It's because their abilities to control the outcome of the product, regardless of and beyond the machinery used, were so outstanding. To most cue makers who understand, their work will always be a standard used as the ultimate barometer for their own construction, and deservedly so, which if successful will also be recognized and admired by those who can notice the difference just as with any other item of superior quality.

I think you miss the point about CNC.

The CNC does not create, it is simply a tool for the mind of the Creator.
Without the vision of the Cuemaker the machine is worthless. It will just sit there waiting.

You are also wrong about the old methods of cue construction that George, myself and Gus used. We were all searching for the best way and not always finding it.

Starting about 1990 cue construction improved dramatically with coring and new adhesives. I only wish I had had that knowledge in 1970.

Bill S.

 

[Matt_24]

Are you talking about the "Balabushka" line of cues from Adam Custom Cues? Those weren't sold while George was alive. They resulted from a licensing agreement after his death. And Adam Custom Cues had a lot of other lines as well.

If memory serves, Richard Helmstetter made custom cues of his own that were excellent. Later, he went to Japan and helped a new company called "Adams" machine up and begin making cues. Jim Rempe was sponsored by them in the late 70s/early 80s.

Later they licensed Richard's name making "Helmstetter" cues. Perhaps he participated in the design process?They also licensed the "Balabushka" name and made cues influenced by his designs. These were all well made, quality cues for the money. From what I understand they still are.

Btw, Richard Helmstetter went on to further fame and fortune by designing the BIG BERTHA driver.

 

[skins]

I think you miss the point about CNC.

The CNC does not create, it is simply a tool for the mind of the Creator.
Without the vision of the Cuemaker the machine is worthless. It will just sit there waiting.

You are also wrong about the old methods of cue construction that George, myself and Gus used. We were all searching for the best way and not always finding it.

Starting about 1990 cue construction improved dramatically with coring and new adhesives. I only wish I had had that knowledge in 1970.

Bill S.

With all due respect Bill, You misunderstood what I meant. I do understand and do know "CNC" does not create. That was my point. It's the maker that does that. The machines are only tools they use.

As for the old methods of cue construction, I never said their/your "methods" were the only RIGHT ways to build cues or even wrong for that matter. I fully understand that makers are always looking to improve. And in some cases some have but not all.

My point was that Gus's and George's work was great then and many aspects of their work are still considered great. As far as coring, adhesives and the like, of course those advancements make for a more consistent build but what I was talking about were those intangibles more towards fit and finishing work that both Gus and George did exceptionally well. Those types of skills are not present in many makers that followed them no matter their build construction methods or how advanced their machinery is.

 

[Cron]

I completely agree with the CNC option.

I posted a few pages back that I believe that a machine is and will remain superior to a human hand, at least in regards to 2 adjoined sticks. _BUT_, the problem I have with CNC fabricators in general are attention to slag, jitter (on lower end machines at least), and knowing when to actually stop (ie. +1/-1 of some value).

Now I know nothing of using a CNC daily for anything considered retail or even anything not considered a hobby, but the several times I've used them they don't guarantee squat. Now if you're the type that can guarantee meticulous work with these machines, then you can make both sticks at least as good by any hand. Problem is, how does one trust that person to do so?

BTW, what software does one use with these machines? Can BRLCAD be used or is it all licensed out on the PC side?

 

[LC3]

I can only say one thing - Bull Crap! There are probably more people playing pool on this planet today than at any other time in history; over 100 million alone in China and probably that many or more worldwide. Even in this country the numbers of regular pool players is still well over ten million. There is a reason that companies like Predator and Tweetens aren't going away any time soon. Diamond is a thriving pool table company!

Did you read the article in the 4/19 issue of Billiards Digest about the evolution of shafts? I was surprised by how many laminated and carbon fiber shafts are being made. There's a much bigger market than I would have thought.

 

[derblur]

Amen !!!!!!

 

[ceebee]

I am no expert but have seen the custom market softening for sometime, however I believe it is only going to get worse. Sorry to those holding a huge stash to bankroll/flip unless it's from top tier cue craftsman no longer with us or retired with historical significance.

With the introduction of the 'Revo' and subsequent others diving into the composite shaft market who needs a beautiful 'hand crafted' custom 2k+ handle when a $500 shaft and a inexpensive production handle will do fine for them and help improve their game ?

I do not own a composite. I do own customs, I enjoy the unique feel and hit from the various custom builders I own and have owned. I still prefer the 'feel' of maple but probably will snag a composite as things ( price gouging) have settled a bit. Most likely end up like the many other LD's I have owned over the years...away.

Have a good day,

-Kat,

If you think the Cue Market is soft, wait until AOC has stopped the sale of gasoline. Those Million Dollar Shelby Cobras will lose their value, except to Rich People & they will turn up their noses, after awhile...

 

[Type79]

I was surprised by how many laminated and carbon fiber shafts are being made. There's a much bigger market than I would have thought.

The cue market is larger than many think it is. Go to a dozen rooms and survey what cues players are using and what room owners have for sale, Consider the number of production cue companies and their annual output. Then add the used cues on the secondary market and the sticks being made by custom and independent cue makers.

At the Expo last week, I witnessed some sales of high-end cues by younger players who I would never have pegged as buyers of such cues.

Those who are pessimistic of the future of custom cue sales could be right, but I'm not ready to be convinced it is going to tank.

 

[johnnysd]

Some good points being made on this thread. I never thought I was a cue collector until one day someone asked me how many cues I owned. I told him a couple of dozen and he said, "You're a collector!"

I'm a sucker who will still buy a cue if I like it. I prefer cues that have a good feel and hit to them. IMO all the inlays and extras usually detract from a cue's playability. I've been playing this game for over fifty years now and I still don't have a clue how a custom cue is made. But I can damn sure tell a good hitting cue from a bad one! Like tbilliards said on here, EVERY cue is different! And don't forget that fact. Even identical cues made by the same cue maker will not hit exactly the same. That is why I've always recommended that you hit/play with a cue before buying it. Buying online you're taking a risk.

As Billy Stroud said earlier, some cues made by revered cue makers will always have a market. I have several early Stroud/JW cues, Tads and Gina's. I will only say this. There IS a market for these cues! I just sold a very rare Ginacue (it was loaded and unique) for a healthy five figures. Other than these rare cues, the next best market imo are the newer, well made cues that are good players. They can be had in the $500-1,000 price range and there are many custom cue makers today making good playing cues in this price range.

I keep reading these dire predictions about the future of Pool. How there are no new players and the game is dying. I can only say one thing - Bull Crap! There are probably more people playing pool on this planet today than at any other time in history; over 100 million alone in China and probably that many or more worldwide. Even in this country the numbers of regular pool players is still well over ten million. There is a reason that companies like Predator and Tweetens aren't going away any time soon. Diamond is a thriving pool table company!

Pool is too great a game to die. Maybe the number of "poolrooms" is dwindling, but the number of homes with pool tables is increasing. It's almost a must have addition to any well appointed home. I wonder why. People will still be playing pool when the last video game is long buried in the scrap heap of history! That's my prediction. :thumbup:

This is a great post.

One of the key elements you make is that custom is not equivalent to expensive. There are a lot of cue makers that can make awesome cues for less than a $1,000.

I am not really a collector but I LOVE getting custom cues. I think few people realize just the level of workmanship, complexity and skill there is in making a good hitting cue. Cues appeal both to the engineer in me, the artistic side of me, and also the "creation" side of me.

If you think about a custom cue, even ones with only a few design features, there is nothing exactly like it in the entire world. IMO that will always have value.

Chuck Starkey is making me a cue out of 3 selected pieces of Brazilian Rosewood for less than the price of a Revo shaft. I suspect because of the wood and Chuck's expertise it will hit amazing. But in 40 years it may not even be possible to make a cue like it, and there will be nothing else exactly like it in the entire world. Even if it does not ever appreciate in monetary value, how could something like that not have collectable value, but even then like Mr Stroud said in time, RARE things become valuable.

In terms of pool, NO it will never go away. It is a cyclical thing. Something will happen, another movie, maybe some famous singer tweeting that he loves pool, and it will become popular again and every one and his brother will build new pool halls. In terms of the ones failing, I think they fail not because pool is not popular enough to support but because the rooms are poorly run, poorly maintained and just not run with common sense. I see it happening here now with the pool hall I designed and managed 25 years ago. It is the experience the new owner provides that is turning people away, not the lack of people wanting to play.

 

[jrctherake]

Sure, only an IDIOT would think there are less people playing pool today vs pretty much anytime in the past. Why?:

Now days young people are more likely to go to a "nice" room/bar on a date to grab a bite, have a drink and yes, lol.... maybe play pool. Why? Well, it use to cost a few bucks for a movie and dinner on a date...... not anymore.

These days, it would take at least $80 to $100 for two people to go to a movie and dinner afterwards.

On the other hand, those same two people can go to....say....goodtimez in Huntsville, Alabama and for around $35 they can eat, have an after-dinner-drink and then play pool and take breaks to sit and talk while watching others play.....or play themselves for hours on-end....and all for just a few dollars compared to what it cost to do most ANYTHING else.

So....lol....YEAH, there are more people playing pool now.

Guess what, I hadn't even got to the casual player that likes to hang out with his buddies at the local rooms and spend ~$7 for all-day-pool.

What about the SEMI-SERIOUS league players? There are thousands and thousands of them....again, it would take a complete MORON to think there is less pool being played today....in general compared to anytime in history.

Now, SERIOUS players? Well, like high-end true custom cues.....that's where the decline is. It's not huge but, it's there REGARDLESS of what anyone wants to admit for various reasons.....and it's gonna get worse IMO. I don't like it anymore than anyone else on the planet but, that dont change certain facts.

The main reason being money.

People, especially young folks with children have MUCH, MUCH more to overcome as a parent and breadwinner for the family.

Remember when you got a job that came with something called BENEFITS? Well, those MYSTICAL benefits are a thing of the past in general.

Sure, there are some places that offer what they call Benefits but, they are FAR from what yesteryears jobs provided, such as:

In house retirement that was FREE and you could even contribute to it. Almost free health insurance. Health insurance back then came with dental, vision...etc...etc.. and it was for the FAMILY....

Nowadays, if you work.... lol..... a HUGE chunk of your pay goes to all that chit that the generation before you GOT FOR FREE.....as part of their pay package. Not to mention....lol.... young folks dont have jackchit for retirement. Their gonna be working till their 80 or dead.

Anyways, sure, we older and more financial stable.......just another way of saying:

We got lucky and had retirement package that pays us for life........can afford to buy HIGH-END cues but, MOST of the younger (99%) folks can't nor will they ever be able to do what we do unless they forgo having children or have them but not prepare for their future....etc...etc...

You know what? Anyone that doesn't get the picture at this point, well....your living in the past....


*******PLUS.....******.....:

Let's not forget the population is much larger now than then and 99% of all those new players ....... remember, the young folks that dont have the type jobs we had? Yeah, them.

They can't afford high end cues if they have children. Remember college? Yeah, they have that to save for....the house....etc...etc..

I did well, just like others here such as Jay. But, you know what? We/you are living in a fairytale world from the past.....or should I say:

Living on $$$ you made in the past....like me.

Well, yeah, we can afford what we want but the masses (young people coming) can't and may never be able to due to previous generations sucking the system dry.

Sure, I can sell a high end "anything" to another person like myself or Jay but, what about the young parents today? They can't and I dont blame them.

Some people need to stop trying to spit in the faces of the young people and tell them its raining!