I agree with Snooker on this one. That is definitely a gorgeous cue. I'm constantly amazed at all of the cue knowledge on this site. The only thing I know about cues is that someone will be buying my Mobley from one of my kids when I'm dead. And maybe that person can talk my kid into a package deal and get my '67 Josh, a couple of Mucci's, a Hubler, and a McDermott I played with in college. The best part is my family have no idea what they're worth because my wife would kill me if she knew what I spent!
What's Going On With Custom Cue Prices?
- Thread starter knifemakermike
- Start date
I agree with Snooker on this one. That is definitely a gorgeous cue. I'm constantly amazed at all of the cue knowledge on this site. The only thing I know about cues is that someone will be buying my Mobley from one of my kids when I'm dead. And maybe that person can talk my kid into a package deal and get my '67 Josh, a couple of Mucci's, a Hubler, and a McDermott I played with in college. The best part is my family have no idea what they're worth because my wife would kill me if she knew what I spent!
tbilliards
New member
I am not trying to be critical but I think you meant Joss cue, Meucci cue and Huebler cue. Just thought you might want to know.
That just tells me that the dealer overpaid for this cue and he'd rather sit on it until someone who doesn't know any better overpays him for it.
meanwhile, he could sell it for market value and invest the money in a better mark-up cue and repeat-maybe 4 times while the other one is dead money. This assumes he is a 'real dealer' and can buy at wholesale prices.
If he is just a dude trying to 'buy low' from the same people his customer can buy from, i assure you there is no future in that. Yeah you can get lucky now and then when someone is hardup for instant cash but it is no business plan.
tbilliards
New member
I thought I might comment on the argument you guys are having being a small cue maker and an engineer with a BS in Electronic engineering and being a very good player up until a couple of years ago when I had to quit due to loss of good eyesight. New cues can be made much better than older cues. Even Balabushka had a machine made line called Adams back in the day. I have owned both cues. My all time favorite cue was a McDermott D21 made in the early 80's. I am a cue dealer in my retirement and have held and sold many cue brands over the years, for the last 20. Every cue has a different feel depending on the joint, the wood they are created with (type and age), the number of inlays and balance point. So when people bring up the feel of the cue from one maker compared to another I remind them every cue is different, man made or machine made. The density of wood varies. I personally hate quick release joints because I feel more vibration in certain hits. I love wood to wood joints for the feel of the hit, mostly on the maple cues that are old wood. Everyone has there favorite cues from a personal prospective.
I am doing 10% of the business that I did back in 2008. I have heard estimates as high as 50% of cue dealers have gone out of business since 2008. Factors include, the availability of cheap cues has increased 100 fold, more people selling online and trying to get into the cue business, less billiard players because fewer new players and older people who play pool are dieing off. The last pool tournament I ran 2 years ago had 64 players and only one was below 40 years old.
So let me answer why cues are falling in price. Fewer collectors and other collectors dieing off and their relatives selling off their collections for nothing. The low volume cues tend to hold their prices depending on how old and the maker. Most dealers and collectors are trying to hold the values by not letting cues go with decent offers just to keep their businesses going and their collecting going. I know of several dealers right now who's days are numbered including my own. The money is just not there anymore. I could tell a customer I would sell him a cue at my cost and he would still want more off. So why would I discount my cues. The dealers who do would be out of business if they did. So don't give the dealers a hard time because they need to make money to stay in business. In a few years there may not be many left to serve the billiard communities needs at all.
I am doing 10% of the business that I did back in 2008. I have heard estimates as high as 50% of cue dealers have gone out of business since 2008. Factors include, the availability of cheap cues has increased 100 fold, more people selling online and trying to get into the cue business, less billiard players because fewer new players and older people who play pool are dieing off. The last pool tournament I ran 2 years ago had 64 players and only one was below 40 years old.
So let me answer why cues are falling in price. Fewer collectors and other collectors dieing off and their relatives selling off their collections for nothing. The low volume cues tend to hold their prices depending on how old and the maker. Most dealers and collectors are trying to hold the values by not letting cues go with decent offers just to keep their businesses going and their collecting going. I know of several dealers right now who's days are numbered including my own. The money is just not there anymore. I could tell a customer I would sell him a cue at my cost and he would still want more off. So why would I discount my cues. The dealers who do would be out of business if they did. So don't give the dealers a hard time because they need to make money to stay in business. In a few years there may not be many left to serve the billiard communities needs at all.
You Can Judge a Man By The Compay He Keeps And Skins Keeps Good Company.
Here's the bottomline as I see it when it comes to custom cues.
Buyers pay whatever they are willing to spend, not a cent more.
Cue-makers build a cue the best they can and some are better.
When you sell that custom cue, others might disagree on price.
If its a top tier cue-maker, price isn't a hurdle unless overpriced.
What you think is gorgeous doesn't always float everyone's boat.
The thing that matters is the underlying reason why you got a cue.
If flipping for a profit was a main objective, you are taking a chance.
However, if personal use and enjoyment was why, you are better off.
I buy a cue to be retained, played with and just enjoyed or why get it?
Quality and meticulous workmanship are my criteria for judging a cue.
Even the most handsome of custom cues can be played & disappoint.
The only thing that matters is if you are happy after you get the cue just
as much when you originally ordered it to be made; the price is irrelevent.
That's because 2nd line of this post pretty much explains why and it's true.
Matt B.
Here's the bottomline as I see it when it comes to custom cues.
Buyers pay whatever they are willing to spend, not a cent more.
Cue-makers build a cue the best they can and some are better.
When you sell that custom cue, others might disagree on price.
If its a top tier cue-maker, price isn't a hurdle unless overpriced.
What you think is gorgeous doesn't always float everyone's boat.
The thing that matters is the underlying reason why you got a cue.
If flipping for a profit was a main objective, you are taking a chance.
However, if personal use and enjoyment was why, you are better off.
I buy a cue to be retained, played with and just enjoyed or why get it?
Quality and meticulous workmanship are my criteria for judging a cue.
Even the most handsome of custom cues can be played & disappoint.
The only thing that matters is if you are happy after you get the cue just
as much when you originally ordered it to be made; the price is irrelevent.
That's because 2nd line of this post pretty much explains why and it's true.
Matt B.
I spelled it correctly. They're all knock offs. I'd hate to see you when you're trying to be critical..ha!
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My 9th post and I just stopped back to see about custom cues, and it's sadder than last time.
I'm looking for a completely machine made cue, but under serious human scrutiny under the process. Anyone know of such a maker?
For what it's worth, in a game of physics and math, how could a machine not out perform a human hand? The pieces of the ISS were not made by hand and that is a life support critical, mathematically dependent, near-perfect physical structure. How could 2 adjoined sticks require more?
As someone who has owned over a dozen carbon fiber cycling frames, they aren't ridden for the "feel" of it, but for rigidness (and of course weight). Assuming carbon fiber shafts really are better for at least some, why doesn't someone just belly up and finally do a liquid metal shaft? It can be lighter, stronger and even more rigid.
Anyways, if anyone knows of someone who does very high standard cue work using a fully machined work flow, let me know. NASA would be ideal, if someone here has the "pull"
.
I'm looking for a completely machine made cue, but under serious human scrutiny under the process. Anyone know of such a maker?
For what it's worth, in a game of physics and math, how could a machine not out perform a human hand? The pieces of the ISS were not made by hand and that is a life support critical, mathematically dependent, near-perfect physical structure. How could 2 adjoined sticks require more?
As someone who has owned over a dozen carbon fiber cycling frames, they aren't ridden for the "feel" of it, but for rigidness (and of course weight). Assuming carbon fiber shafts really are better for at least some, why doesn't someone just belly up and finally do a liquid metal shaft? It can be lighter, stronger and even more rigid.
Anyways, if anyone knows of someone who does very high standard cue work using a fully machined work flow, let me know. NASA would be ideal, if someone here has the "pull"
.Pokerfish19
New member
Kevin, What kind of Scruggs do you have? can you send me pics and price please?
Thank you
Yeah you’re probably right, but why do they keep having to use duct tape on the ISS?My 9th post and I just stopped back to see about custom cues, and it's sadder than last time.
I'm looking for a completely machine made cue, but under serious human scrutiny under the process. Anyone know of such a maker?
For what it's worth, in a game of physics and math, how could a machine not out perform a human hand? The pieces of the ISS were not made by hand and that is a life support critical, mathematically dependent, near-perfect physical structure. How could 2 adjoined sticks require more?
As someone who has owned over a dozen carbon fiber cycling frames, they aren't ridden for the "feel" of it, but for rigidness (and of course weight). Assuming carbon fiber shafts really are better for at least some, why doesn't someone just belly up and finally do a liquid metal shaft? It can be lighter, stronger and even more rigid.
Anyways, if anyone knows of someone who does very high standard cue work using a fully machined work flow, let me know. NASA would be ideal, if someone here has the "pull"
I think I know something about cues and cuemaking.
I think what we are seeing in the current cue market is similar to what exists in many collectors markets.
There is a time frame that separates all collectors markets.
Consider the Ferrari Testa Rosa. Expensive car when it came out. Then it sat around until several new models were introduced. You could buy a used one for $60K or less. Now the price is at least double that.
As a personal example:
I bought a new Ferrari Daytona in 1974 for $22.5k. Sold it a few Years later for $40k. The same car sold last year for over 1 mil.
Same with Rolex watches. The old unusual cost way more than a new one.
When an item is Rare it will always find a market.
It is all about Time, Rarity and quality.
Bill S.
I think what we are seeing in the current cue market is similar to what exists in many collectors markets.
There is a time frame that separates all collectors markets.
Consider the Ferrari Testa Rosa. Expensive car when it came out. Then it sat around until several new models were introduced. You could buy a used one for $60K or less. Now the price is at least double that.
As a personal example:
I bought a new Ferrari Daytona in 1974 for $22.5k. Sold it a few Years later for $40k. The same car sold last year for over 1 mil.
Same with Rolex watches. The old unusual cost way more than a new one.
When an item is Rare it will always find a market.
It is all about Time, Rarity and quality.
Bill S.
hey, i have origina burton spain with all provenance .ie. original receipt, the sales flyers, letters from burton ,2 shafts one never used 13mm and a george alligator case. rolls credit card true, no nicks, was only used for playing one pocket. I'm 80 yrs old now and if this stick could talk you would all night just listening to its competition history. gotta sell to pool lover cause when i go to the big poolroom, whichever the direction is, i know my kin will just get rid of it, they no nothing of pool quality. i used to sell cues in the 70's and i. have other cues
Rarity & Scarcity Dictate Cue Values.
Mr. Stroud is right and if you searched some of my prior threads and posts about cue values and prices,
I expressed the opinion that rarity and scarcity were two critical factors for increasing a cue’s potential $.
The underlying presumption also being the cue was in excellent condition & without any flaws. When
that is the situation, it comes down to how many were made and then how many can be found for sale.
And of course, when the cue-maker is a heralded name like Bill’s, well the price of that cue really soars.
It always comes down to the fewer the better and so if and when the opportunity comes along,......Voila!
Matt B.
Mr. Stroud is right and if you searched some of my prior threads and posts about cue values and prices,
I expressed the opinion that rarity and scarcity were two critical factors for increasing a cue’s potential $.
The underlying presumption also being the cue was in excellent condition & without any flaws. When
that is the situation, it comes down to how many were made and then how many can be found for sale.
And of course, when the cue-maker is a heralded name like Bill’s, well the price of that cue really soars.
It always comes down to the fewer the better and so if and when the opportunity comes along,......Voila!
Matt B.
Time, Rarity & Quality... kinda sums things up... Nice Bill
Some good points being made on this thread. I never thought I was a cue collector until one day someone asked me how many cues I owned. I told him a couple of dozen and he said, "You're a collector!"
I'm a sucker who will still buy a cue if I like it. I prefer cues that have a good feel and hit to them. IMO all the inlays and extras usually detract from a cue's playability. I've been playing this game for over fifty years now and I still don't have a clue how a custom cue is made. But I can damn sure tell a good hitting cue from a bad one! Like tbilliards said on here, EVERY cue is different! And don't forget that fact. Even identical cues made by the same cue maker will not hit exactly the same. That is why I've always recommended that you hit/play with a cue before buying it. Buying online you're taking a risk.
As Billy Stroud said earlier, some cues made by revered cue makers will always have a market. I have several early Stroud/JW cues, Tads and Gina's. I will only say this. There IS a market for these cues! I just sold a very rare Ginacue (it was loaded and unique) for a healthy five figures. Other than these rare cues, the next best market imo are the newer, well made cues that are good players. They can be had in the $500-1,000 price range and there are many custom cue makers today making good playing cues in this price range.
I keep reading these dire predictions about the future of Pool. How there are no new players and the game is dying. I can only say one thing - Bull Crap! There are probably more people playing pool on this planet today than at any other time in history; over 100 million alone in China and probably that many or more worldwide. Even in this country the numbers of regular pool players is still well over ten million. There is a reason that companies like Predator and Tweetens aren't going away any time soon. Diamond is a thriving pool table company!
Pool is too great a game to die. Maybe the number of "poolrooms" is dwindling, but the number of homes with pool tables is increasing. It's almost a must have addition to any well appointed home. I wonder why. People will still be playing pool when the last video game is long buried in the scrap heap of history! That's my prediction. :thumbup:
I'm a sucker who will still buy a cue if I like it. I prefer cues that have a good feel and hit to them. IMO all the inlays and extras usually detract from a cue's playability. I've been playing this game for over fifty years now and I still don't have a clue how a custom cue is made. But I can damn sure tell a good hitting cue from a bad one! Like tbilliards said on here, EVERY cue is different! And don't forget that fact. Even identical cues made by the same cue maker will not hit exactly the same. That is why I've always recommended that you hit/play with a cue before buying it. Buying online you're taking a risk.
As Billy Stroud said earlier, some cues made by revered cue makers will always have a market. I have several early Stroud/JW cues, Tads and Gina's. I will only say this. There IS a market for these cues! I just sold a very rare Ginacue (it was loaded and unique) for a healthy five figures. Other than these rare cues, the next best market imo are the newer, well made cues that are good players. They can be had in the $500-1,000 price range and there are many custom cue makers today making good playing cues in this price range.
I keep reading these dire predictions about the future of Pool. How there are no new players and the game is dying. I can only say one thing - Bull Crap! There are probably more people playing pool on this planet today than at any other time in history; over 100 million alone in China and probably that many or more worldwide. Even in this country the numbers of regular pool players is still well over ten million. There is a reason that companies like Predator and Tweetens aren't going away any time soon. Diamond is a thriving pool table company!
Pool is too great a game to die. Maybe the number of "poolrooms" is dwindling, but the number of homes with pool tables is increasing. It's almost a must have addition to any well appointed home. I wonder why. People will still be playing pool when the last video game is long buried in the scrap heap of history! That's my prediction. :thumbup:
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Yeah right...lets see you do that with a mini cue
Got my mini-cue right here in my office, the ONLY pool cue that has such a lofty position in my home!
I agree with a lot of what you say Jay. The only thing I have issue with was that inlays and extras usually detract from a cues playability. When we're talking about good competent makers, for the most part, that is a non issue.
I think even Bill Stroud will tell you that one of the reasons he went to flat bottom point inlay was to keep the cues playability more consistent. Short and full splice cues are great but in reality there's less control over making the cues consistent hitting from one to the next.
As for fancy cues with lots of inlay, Bill was also a pioneer in building the "base" to which almost unlimited design could be incorporated on to that base yet still retain the integrity and consistency of the cues playability. He also had some if the most advanced machinery in the industry and even with that needed ever bit of his hands on work and cue construction knowledge to create the catalog of cues that he did.
Thanks for clarifying that for me. Maybe that's why I've always had a preference for plain cues without points, Tad's being my all time favorite.
Hank Corsair made a few solid ebony cues that are now highly coveted, and may have motivated me to buy a similar cue made by Ed Prewitt this week.
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Are you talking about the "Balabushka" line of cues from Adam Custom Cues? Those weren't sold while George was alive. They resulted from a licensing agreement after his death. And Adam Custom Cues had a lot of other lines as well.