What's going on with this type of carom shot?

Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This type of shot happens all the time. I'd like to understand its exact mechanics to exploit it better because right now it's not working very well for me.

For instance, in the following configuration, I want to pocket the 1 by caroming it off the 6. The 1 and the 6 are frozen or very close, and the 1-6 line is perpendicular to the 1-(corner pocket) line.

Ignoring throw, and playing hard (or low) enough to make the cueball hit the 1 without any spin, I should be able to hit the 1 with the cueball almost anywhere on the table and with almost all kind of ball fullness, provided the cueball is driven into the 6, right?

CueTable Help



If I carefully set the 1 and the 6 perfectly in those positions, it's almost what happens. But in reality, what happens is this, with more or less deviation according to where the cueball hits from, and how full it hits:

CueTable Help



That makes sense to me: the 6 behaves exactly as I expect it to, because of throw, and I'm assuming the 1's path changes too for the same reason. Or in other words, since after the collision, the 1's path and the 6's path should be 90 degrees apart, if the 1 is thrown to the side, so should the 6.

So far so good. Now, if I want to exploit those shots, I do things in reverse: I look for frozen (or very close balls), and if they look like they're in line perpendicularly to one of the ball's path to a pocket, I check if they really are with by cue, to the best of my ability. If they seem exactly perpendicular, then I correct the throw I expect to get with some english on the cueball. If they aren't exactly perpendicular, and the deviation should cancel out the throw, I use no english on the cueball. Then I play the ball full.

My problem is, half of the time I get this:

CueTable Help



The 1 catches the point and doesn't go in. Because of that, I'm wary of playing that sort of shot if the pocket is too far.

I tried with no english, with reverse english, hard, soft, but it doesn't change much. When I set the balls myself, it almost never happens, but when I try to exploit an existing situation, I get a lot more misses. I figured maybe I had trouble evaluating whether the balls where perpendicular to the path to the pocket, but when the ball misses, it always seems to miss toward the same point (the angle closes, never opens), so I think there's something I'm not understanding correctly here. Finally, it seems to happen more when the balls are completely frozen, and less if they're slightly separated.

Anybody knows what I'm doing wrong here? These shots happen surprisingly often, and I can't count the number of balls that should have gone in, but haven't.
 
The way you have the diagram set up I can not duplicate the miss, it's too close to the pocket.
But. . .
Here is my understanding of what is happening. When two balls are frozen and they are struck with a not rotating cue ball they will move slightly in the direction of force before seperating and the struck ball then follows the tangent line.
(In each of the following cases the throw effect is still there and the tangent line is modified)
If the cueball is rotating forward (top spin) the struck ball will get reverse rotation imparted to it causing it to deflect to (in your diagram) the left of the tangent line.
If the cueball is rotating backward (reverse spin) the object ball will get forward rotation imparted to it causing it to roll to the right of the tangent line.
The trick is to learn how much (or little) top or bottom to strike the object ball with to get the desired result.

Now if I am wrong, always a possibility, someone please correct me.

Andy
 
The way you have the diagram set up I can not duplicate the miss, it's too close to the pocket.

Well, maybe they're a bit farther, I have a hard time translating a real table's layout from memory with the cuetable thingy.

If the cueball is rotating forward (top spin) the struck ball will get reverse rotation imparted to it causing it to deflect to (in your diagram) the left of the tangent line.
If the cueball is rotating backward (reverse spin) the object ball will get forward rotation imparted to it causing it to roll to the right of the tangent line.
The trick is to learn how much (or little) top or bottom to strike the object ball with to get the desired result.

I thought of that, but the effect of transferred spin only seems relevant when the ball is farther from the pocket.

Like you, I don't miss when I set the balls myself. It's only when I play a shot left on the table in the course of normal play. I think maybe the frozen balls are too close to accurately estimate whether the line between their centers is perpendicular to the path to the pocket. But if I fail to estimate the correct angle, you'd think I'd miss right and left of the pocket, not always left. That's what I don't understand. Unless of course I always mis-judge the shot more on one side than the other...
 
Andy is right.
You can throw the object ball far enough off the tangent line to miss. If you want the ball to go straight down the line you have to hit it with a stop shot so the cue ball is not spinning at all. If the cue ball is rolling at all it will pull the object ball to the left.

Andy2
 
I beg to differ on the throw effects. If as you depict, there are only the two balls the 6 and the 1. Using draw you can force the object ball (1ball) to the right of its target and tangent line. (forcing forward) However, you cannot pull the object ball to the left with follow any appreciable amount.

The only way you can alter the object ball to the left of its tangent line is if there are other balls frozen to the 6 ball backing it up so to speak. Then, applying follow will pull the object ball backwards to its left.
 
Okay think I figured it out. It turns out the perpendicularity between the frozen balls and the desired path to the pocket is harder to estimate than I thought.

I brought a large construction set square to the poolhall yesterday and carefully set the balls at various locations on the table. When I shot the object ball hard, it went in without fail, dead center, no matter how full I hit it or where I hit it from. Shooting softly, the angle closes and the ball reacts to spin, especially at a distance, but still it's perfectly predictable.

So I played some 14.1 and encountered frozen balls like this 5 or 6 times in the game, either all by themselves or in the rack. Whenever I found a configuration I initially thought would work with my usual reckoning method, I checked it with the set square, and sure enough, half of them were not at a right angle. My eyes were deceiving me.

But I'm not supposed to use a set square during a game eh :) So I tried to find a method with my cue. The best I could find is to line the cue with the pocket and the center of the object ball, and determine visually if the frozen balls look perpendicular to the shaft. And indeed this seems more accurate than what I used to do. I get much better results than before.
 
I find it easier to use the point where the two balls touch to determine where the tangent line will be.
I also use the cue inline with and overtop the two object balls, it is easier for me to see an imaginary perpendicular line comming off the cue.

Andy
 
You show the intended object ball "backing up" off the ball it is frozen to. That is pretty much never observed for two frozen balls being struck by the cue ball. I suggest you look at the shot again with the ball you intend to make on the center spot (right between the two side pockets) and a ball frozen to it along the centerstring (the line up and down the table that passes through the head and foot spots).

I think you will find a different result than you are reporting.

What happens to a frozen pair of object balls is treated by the "ten times fuller" system. In general, the ball struck by the cue ball goes through the back ball a little. This can be helped by draw on the cue ball but draw is not required. Dr. Dave has an on-line video covering this system.
 
You show the intended object ball "backing up" off the ball it is frozen to. That is pretty much never observed for two frozen balls being struck by the cue ball.

Indeed you are correct. I redid some experimenting with more cautious placements of the balls, and the intended object ball indeed seem to be "thrown" forward a little, opening up the angle a bit. Just like the second object ball it is frozen to in fact, so one might say the angle of the paths of the two object balls after the collision is a little less than 90 degrees.

I also noticed it seems to happen less with my shiny new set of Aramith balls than with the crummy spent poolhall ball, which would suggest it is an effect of friction between the balls during the time they're in contact. Perhaps it's the crud on the poolhall's balls that makes one ball "drag" the other more, perhaps they're a little more elastic than mine, who knows...

At any rate, all this isn't really meaningful unless the distance to the pocket is rather large. As far as my original shot is concerned, what I reported seems largely due to experimenting and angle reckoning errors on my part.
 
Many pool players misjudge 90 degrees on a pool table. You really just need to set a bunch up and estimate before shooting and then see your outcome. Reading a tangent line is very useful in straight pool for these carom shots and even more important for judging break shots.

Andy
 
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