What's Left for Efren?

bud green

bud green

Dolley and Django
Silver Member
Since it seems that Efren has won everything there is in pool almost and is clearly the best player alive, whats left for him to accomplish?

My pick: someone should set up a table like Mosconi had when he ran 526 balls (8' table with buckets) and offer Efren a million bucks if he can break Mosconis' record. I still think that most people believe this is the greatest record in pool.

Efren breaks that record and even Mosconi fans might have to concede that he was the greatest talent ever.

What do people here think of Thomas Engerts 491 on a 9' table? Does it compare to Mosconis' record?

Does a bigger table make it harder due to longer distances for shotmaking or is it easier because you have more room to maneuver? I tell friends that its just as big an accomplishment but they usually say "Yeah, but it's not 526".
 
Yeah the number means alot to people. I wonder what the width on those pockets were? If the pockets were wide enough, I think there are a few people who could break that record alive today.
 
I dont know, Bud. Its sort of like comparing Tiger Woods to Jack Nicklaus or Arnold Palmer, or comparing Babe Ruth to Mark McGwire or Sammy Soso (LOL). It makes no sense. Mosconi was special to his era. Efren is special to our era.

As far as the run standing today, I think on an 8 foot table with big pockets, Thorsten Hohmann could run more than 526, so could Thomas Engert, Ralf Souquet, John Schmidt, Danny Harriman, and of course -Efren Reyes. I think if they were to do it on loose equipment, it probably wouldn't mean anything to them. They would probably get bored with it because it wouldn't represent much of a challenge for them. I think the best players pride themselves on playing flawless with tight pockets. It elevates their game.
 
bud green said:
Since it seems that Efren has won everything there is in pool almost and is clearly the best player alive, whats left for him to accomplish?

My pick: someone should set up a table like Mosconi had when he ran 526 balls (8' table with buckets) and offer Efren a million bucks if he can break Mosconis' record. I still think that most people believe this is the greatest record in pool.

Efren breaks that record and even Mosconi fans might have to concede that he was the greatest talent ever.

What do people here think of Thomas Engerts 491 on a 9' table? Does it compare to Mosconis' record?

Does a bigger table make it harder due to longer distances for shotmaking or is it easier because you have more room to maneuver? I tell friends that its just as big an accomplishment but they usually say "Yeah, but it's not 526".
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Good question. Efren is probably the best eight ball player of all time, possibly the best one-pocket player of all time, definitely one of the best handful of nineball players ever. Straight pool is his very weakest suit, and having watched him play it, I'd have to say that he improvises rather than playing in the classic style. Of course, it was still good enough to finish 2nd in the 1993 US Open 14.1 event and 3rd in the 2000 US Open 14.1 event.

The 526 ball run by Mosconi on a very loose 4 x 8, in my opinion, is LESS impressive than Engert's 491 ball run on a 4 1/2 x 9. Still, few believe 491 to be the real righ run on a 4 1/2 x 9. Most believe that Mike Eufemia ran well over 600 on a 4 1/2 x 9 in 1961. Babe Cranfield is believed by quite a few to have run over 700.....twice.

Straight pool skills and knowledge, at least in my opinion, require much more time to be developed than skils and knowledge needed in the other games. In my opinion, only a few of the current crop of top professionals have invested the time in straight pool to be a threat to break Mosconi's record. Of all of them, I believe the one with the best shot at it is Thorsten Hohmann (John Schmidt and Tony Robles, forgive me), whose play in the 2005 European Straight Pool Championships may even merit consideration as the greatest straight pool ever played.

My best guess is that 526 is just too tall an order for Efren, even if he chose to go for it, quite unlikely given that the curtain is rising on the most lucarative pool tour in history, and it's an eight ball tour.

There are no important hurdles left to climb for Efren, in my opinion, other than chasing the biggest prizes ever offered in the upcoming IPT tour.
 
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straybullet said:
I dont know, Bud. Its sort of like comparing Tiger Woods to Jack Nicklaus or Arnold Palmer, or comparing Babe Ruth to Mark McGwire or Sammy Soso (LOL). It makes no sense. Mosconi was special to his era. Efren is special to our era.

As far as the run standing today, I think on an 8 foot table with big pockets, Thorsten Hohmann could run more than 526, so could Thomas Engert, Ralf Souquet, John Schmidt, Danny Harriman, and of course -Efren Reyes. I think if they were to do it on loose equipment, it probably wouldn't mean anything to them. They would probably get bored with it because it wouldn't represent much of a challenge for them. I think the best players pride themselves on playing flawless with tight pockets. It elevates their game.
Click to expand...

Stray Bullett - Outstanding analogy between Efren & Mosconi and Tiger & Nicklaus!!! !!!

In Jack Nickaus' day - the equipment was not what it is today and the course conditions-especially the greens were not nearly what they are now.

I am told that the cloth in the Mosconi era often resembled indoor-outdoor carpet and the size and weight of the balls was very inconsistent.

You just can't compare!!
 
bud green said:
Since it seems that the best player alive, whats left for him to accomplish?
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Needs money to buy the bread.He, I understand, is a very generous guy and helps lots of poor people and hence needs more money to take care of others.:cool:
 
I would like to see Efren win another 9 ball WPC, he's won one but I think he's better than that. I still can't beleive he can runner up so many times in a row in the US open!

I see no reason given his all round skill, especially his 8 ball and rotation skills why he could break Mosconi's record, esp on an 8ft with buckets!

PS
Did Efren not participate in the DCC straightpool event?
 
I find it interesting that people think its almost a sure thing that someone could break the 526. That's almost 40 break shots with nothing bad happening. These guys are great but 500+ is still incredible. Only a few alive today have hit 400 and one of them, Earl Strickland, said it was an endurance test as well.

We need some old school 1000 point challenge matches for big $$ to find out if its easier said than done. Maybe have guys represent their countries/areas of the world. Efren/Manalo/Alex take on Engert/Souqet/Holmann or three American players.

Who are the best three US 14.1 players right now? Seems Sigel and other HOF'ers are past their prime so I guess I'd pick Schmidt, Zuglan, and Robles.

Someone find me a job in NYC so I can actually watch people play 14.1 and run more than 50 balls.
 
bud green said:
I find it interesting that people think its almost a sure thing that someone could break the 526. That's almost 40 break shots with nothing bad happening. These guys are great but 500+ is still incredible. Only a few alive today have hit 400 and one of them, Earl Strickland, said it was an endurance test as well.

We need some old school 1000 point challenge matches for big $$ to find out if its easier said than done. Maybe have guys represent their countries/areas of the world. Efren/Manalo/Alex take on Engert/Souqet/Holmann or three American players.

Who are the best three US 14.1 players right now? Seems Sigel and other HOF'ers are past their prime so I guess I'd pick Schmidt, Zuglan, and Robles.

Someone find me a job in NYC so I can actually watch people play 14.1 and run more than 50 balls.
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Its hard to think of the top US 14.1 players and not mention...drum roll..... Mr.....Jose.....Garcia!!!!

You are so right about all those break shots and nothing bad happening!!

I always hear stories about the top players telling the young up and comers...learn how to play straight pool and play it well ... and you will have elevated your nine ball and one pocket more than you would ever believe.

Bud-don't get me started on talking about straight pool.....I will wax eloquent for hours.

When I was 13 years old - I got to play an exhibition with Mosconi at the opening of a new Brunswick pool hall. (In the early and mid 60s - Brunswick was financing guys that opened up pool rooms using all Brunswick equipment and part of the deal was sending one of their "player reps" to the grand opening of the room. Willie came to ours and since no one was going to give him a game - the new owner thought it would be cute for this little 13 year old kid to play him !!) Willie broke - I played safe - he hit a couple of balls out on purpose - I made like 3 balls and the was 100 and out!
 
bud green said:
Since it seems that Efren has won everything there is in pool almost and is clearly the best player alive, whats left for him to accomplish?

My pick: someone should set up a table like Mosconi had when he ran 526 balls (8' table with buckets) and offer Efren a million bucks if he can break Mosconis' record. I still think that most people believe this is the greatest record in pool.

Efren breaks that record and even Mosconi fans might have to concede that he was the greatest talent ever.

What do people here think of Thomas Engerts 491 on a 9' table? Does it compare to Mosconis' record?

Does a bigger table make it harder due to longer distances for shotmaking or is it easier because you have more room to maneuver? I tell friends that its just as big an accomplishment but they usually say "Yeah, but it's not 526".
Click to expand...


I certainly think Engerts 491 compares to Mosconis 526, I don't know the exact pocket size for Engerts run but I've heard they weren't buckets like when Mosconi made his run. Engerts feat is one of the more underrated accomplishments of the modern era IMO.
 
That may well be true

sniper said:
I certainly think Engerts 491 compares to Mosconis 526, I don't know the exact pocket size for Engerts run but I've heard they weren't buckets like when Mosconi made his run. Engerts feat is one of the more underrated accomplishments of the modern era IMO.
Click to expand...

but even if Mosconi's record is broken, I seriously doubt whether
the 'new' era player would have the stature, recognition, and
meaning to the Pool world as Mosconi does. Irregardless of
negative personality traits that some people have claimed,
Mosconi was a champion, proved over and over many times,
and simply the best most consistent Straight Pool Player ever.
I seriously also doubt whether some of the great player today,
could hold their own as well with Mosconi's playing conditions
as they do today. And as far as tight pockets, lol, when I got
the honor of playing him in an exhibition match in San Diego
at the Billiard Tavern at 12th and Broadway, he didn't rattle balls,
they went straight down the alley.
 
I would consider both records to be almost superhuman achievements, where keeping your concentration up IMO would be the greatest difficulty. I know Engert missed a pretty easy shot at the end, probably due to lack of concentration, who knows what would have happened if only... I also want to mention that at least a part of the advantage Willie had with the bigger pockets (if they were bigger) was evened out by the smaller table which has a tendency to block more shots, those who have played 8-ball or 14.1 on a six-foot table will know what I mean.
 
Efren still has the $300 000 IPT us open to win and the $500 000 IPT World Championship to win. With the round robin format I wouldnt be shocked if he managed it this year.

About Engert's run, was it in an exhibition, practice match, or by himself in practice. If I remember correctly Mosconi's run was in an exhibition, thats proabably why it is recognized over any of the other players who supposedly ran more.

Personally I would rather play straight pool on a 9 footer because I have more room to maneuvour around. Because I am generally only dealing with one half of the table, the length of it doesnt factor in as much. But regardless of the size of pockets, I generally see runs end with poor position, getting stuck in the stack, not simple misses. But thats my relatively limited experiance.

Regards
 
I am not sure, but i tought Engerts run was in a practice match.
When he was around 100, more people stopped playing to watch the run.
At the end there where like 20-30 people watching, and he missed a easy shot.
I also believed that the table (Brunswick Gold crown II or III) had shimmed pockets, but you have to ask him that.

MH
HOB Weert
 
bud green said:
Since it seems that Efren has won everything there is in pool almost and is clearly the best player alive, whats left for him to accomplish?

My pick: someone should set up a table like Mosconi had when he ran 526 balls (8' table with buckets) and offer Efren a million bucks if he can break Mosconis' record. I still think that most people believe this is the greatest record in pool.

Efren breaks that record and even Mosconi fans might have to concede that he was the greatest talent ever.

What do people here think of Thomas Engerts 491 on a 9' table? Does it compare to Mosconis' record?

Does a bigger table make it harder due to longer distances for shotmaking or is it easier because you have more room to maneuver? I tell friends that its just as big an accomplishment but they usually say "Yeah, but it's not 526".
Click to expand...

Actually Masconi was playing on 10 footers, but with buckets anyway.

I don't think we should go back. Times are different and techicue and everything changes a little bit. There are quite a few players that can run 400+ balls on Diamond Pro or simillar tight table. The question is who can get 15 world titles regardless this is 9 ball or 14.1. This is what we should look for.
 
Snapshot9 said:
but even if Mosconi's record is broken, I seriously doubt whether
the 'new' era player would have the stature, recognition, and
meaning to the Pool world as Mosconi does. Irregardless of
negative personality traits that some people have claimed,
Mosconi was a champion, proved over and over many times,
and simply the best most consistent Straight Pool Player ever.
I seriously also doubt whether some of the great player today,
could hold their own as well with Mosconi's playing conditions
as they do today. And as far as tight pockets, lol, when I got
the honor of playing him in an exhibition match in San Diego
at the Billiard Tavern at 12th and Broadway, he didn't rattle balls,
they went straight down the alley.
Click to expand...

It is also well documented that Mosconi would "handpick" his opponents for exhibitions. If he thought you had a chance to beat him, he'd play somebody esle. That's not a secret either. I think the guy was one of the greats - no doubt about it, but I believe Efren is the best all-around player in the history of this game - hands down. When you think about it, nobody else really comes close, including Mosconi. That's just my opinion, and others might disagree. Of course equipment is different today, as well as conditions, but the competition is also much more intense than it was back in Willie's day. There are so many great players that it is a phenomenal accomplishment that Efren consistently remains the best there is despite the depth of talent that is out there today.

I also believe that running 526 on ANY equipment is an amazing accomplishment. I always thought that records were kind of silly and trivial, but if that one belongs to Willie, it is fitting that it should stay with Willie out of respect for what he did for the game of pool. If somebody is able to break that record, that's ok too. By the way, didn't Mike Eufemia run 600+ or something like that up in NY? I thought that was a record too.
 
Blackjack said:
It is also well documented that Mosconi would "handpick" his opponents for exhibitions. If he thought you had a chance to beat him, he'd play somebody esle.
Click to expand...


That reminds me of Joe Davis in Snooker. I heard that the only person who was able to beat him in a level game was his brother Fred Davis. But this is because Joe rarely played a level game outside of tournaments.
 
BAZARUS said:
Actually Masconi was playing on 10 footers, but with buckets anyway.

I don't think we should go back. Times are different and techicue and everything changes a little bit. There are quite a few players that can run 400+ balls on Diamond Pro or simillar tight table. The question is who can get 15 world titles regardless this is 9 ball or 14.1. This is what we should look for.
Click to expand...

First, Mosconi's run was on a 4 x 8. This is very well known. OlHasBeen has posted about having seen the table on which Mosconi's run occurred, and called the 4 x 8 so loose that it was amazing Mosconi never scratched.

As for your suggestion that quite a few today could run 400 on a tight table such as a diamond pro, do you really believe that to be true after players like Harriman, Engert, Pagulayan, and Deuel, and Schmidt all failed to make it as far as 150 at Derby City over the past week at Derby City? My opinion is that there is not even one player that has ever played the game that would be capable of running 400 on a diamond pro.
 
One thing I hope Efren will do is mentor some young up and coming players. It would be nice to see an American player take something from Efren and build on that. I know Corey learns something every time he plays him. That would make EFREN a complete master.
 
I don't think you can break the 491 or 526 record by setting up a challenge on 1 table and then give a couple guys each "only" 3 go's, they did have 3 go's right? Give them all a table and 3 nights time, then you have a small chance of a record. Compare it to running 10 racks of nine ball. It can be done, multiple top players have done it in practice, and a few (earl and who else?) in a tournament, but on command? I don't think so. There is always a factor of luck or run of the ball involved when splitting roughly 35 racks.
 
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