I will if I come across one. All I can do is offer up what I find. The weight you give it is up to you.
whats the best non simonis cloth on the market
- Thread starter TXsouthpaw
- Start date
I will if I come across one. All I can do is offer up what I find. The weight you give it is up to you.
Name one cloth manufacture that pays a "Pro" player...or ANY player for that matter to say they play on their cloth...you won't find one...because it don't happen...sorry! I've been in this business for the last 27 years...and I'm very close with Diamond and Simonis...I know what I'm talking about
Brunswick on the other hand has paid players to go around saying they play on "Brunswick" tables and that has go on for years...but as far as another table manufacture....not a chance...not with pocket pool tables
Glen
so the fine table makers at "fusion" backed by their outstanding professional product
they have sponsored a few events that I have seen...
and all the pro's SAID they LOVED how they played...
separate the truth from fiction for me Glen..
JL claims those liquidwick cues are the nuts... I saw one... I don't believe her...
how much of your bottom line comes from Simonis?? I won't even mention diamond..
you are one of the best table mechanics in the country.. but you are paid to be biased... how can you complain when some of us choose to take your recommendations with a grain of salt?
so the fine table makers at "fusion" backed by their outstanding professional product
they have sponsored a few events that I have seen...
and all the pro's SAID they LOVED how they played...
separate the truth from fiction for me Glen..
JL claims those liquidwick cues are the nuts... I saw one... I don't believe her...
how much of your bottom line comes from Simonis?? I won't even mention diamond..
you are one of the best table mechanics in the country.. but you are paid to be biased... how can you complain when some of us choose to take your recommendations with a grain of salt?
If you've followed my threads, then you have to know I don't get paid by Diamond or Simonis. I sub-contract for Diamond...my employer is the buyer of the Diamond tables. Diamond don't pay for the oil changes, tires, breaks or anything else on my truck...the same one I'm buying from Diamond on monthly payments. So...I don't call that getting paid by Diamond for anything.
I do however receive royalties monthly for Diamonds ball polisher, I think we all know why
I buy my cloth from Simonis, no different than anyone else, and I've never cashed a check from Simonis made payable to me for ANY reason. So, I wouldn't take that bet to Vegas that I'm paid by either of the aforementioned companies.
As for players getting paid to play with a certain cue...that's old business. SVB is getting paid right now, and Allison is still getting paid...like I said...old business.
Now, as far as a table manufacturer quoting "all the Pro's loved our tables"...name the pro's.
There's a lot of "Pros" that say they support Diamond tables...Diamond don't pay for that comment. There's "Pros" that say they love playing on Brunswick tables...Brunswicks not paying for them comments either.
There's a lot of miss-conception going on about "Pro" players getting paid to say things.
On other thing about Simonis...I started pioneering Simonis cloth in the Pacific Northwest back in 1984 and had no contract with Hank, the Pres of Simonis at that time...and paid for the cloth I bought. When they started selling it to every mechanic besides me, I pioneered Granito cloth as well...but bought every rip of it as well.
As I've already said, it bothers me when a cloth manufacture tries to get sales of their product off the back of Simonis...when they've done nothing even close to what Simonis has done to support the players industry...by simply boasting that their cloth "Plays" better, and "Lasts" longer...but costs less.
Mechanic's know about cloth, customers who've had it put on there home tables for the most part...wouldn't know the difference between Simoniis or Championship...even if it jumped up off the table and bit them on the ass...yet give their "professional" opinion of the cloth on their table at home.
Haven't you ever seen the customers who've bought a Chinese made pool table being quoted as saying..."best table I've ever played on"...like they'd know the difference...it's a clothes line to them within 6 months.
Why don't mechanic's start going around saying, "hey, I'm just as good of a mechanic as RKC, I just cost less"....but fail to show you jack to back it up...are you going to believe them?
Glen
Back to the original question. In my club we have installed Z9 cloth. It is produced by Klaus Zobrekis, former top german pool player and poolroom owner. The cloth plays just as good as simonis and is many times more durable. The speed is consistent, after two years it is still the same. This is the first cloth I have tried that actually don't fall apart after two years in a club.
Good luck with choice of cloth
Good luck with choice of cloth
First of all you are confusing marketing with quality. Just because a company has the largest market share and does the most marketing does NOT mean that their product is the best.
I have to laugh at your logic.
What if HYPOTHETICALLY Simonis were to create what they felt was a better version of their existing cloth?
Then they wanted to test market some reactions by BRANDING it with a different name and claimed that it was BETTER and LASTED longer than Simonis 860?
Now in this hypothetical situation Simonis would be 100% right that the new cloth IS better and lasts longer. YOU HOWEVER would not be in the loop on this and would have NO CLUE as to this cloth really being a Simonis manufactured product.
So, I BET that in this hypothetical situation YOU would denounce the brand and say that they were trying to ride on Simonis' reputation by claiming to be better. Am I wrong?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so that's A. Now for B.
What do you propose that any other company SHOULD DO when advertising their cloth?
If they really believe and even better if they have data to back it up, that their cloth is SUPERIOR to the market leader then shouldn't they say that?
After all Simonis claims that all other cloth is INFERIOR to them in their advertising. So in your eyes it's ok for the people who splash their name around the most to claim superiority and not ok for others to disagree?
What if Milliken dedicated a couple million $ towards eclipsing Simonis when it comes to marketing and sponsoring? Would you change your tune and become fiercely loyal to Milliken?
-----------------------------------------
I mean I don't know. If I were a mechanic and supporter of the industry I don't think I'd spend my time tying my reputation to just one wagon. Milliken is a 2 Billion dollar company. Convince the right people and maybe they will let a few million loose in the industry. However it's doubtful when they blind loyalist fanatics willing to burn them without giving their product a fair shake.
In my opinion.
If you've followed my threads, then you have to know I don't get paid by Diamond or Simonis. I sub-contract for Diamond...my employer is the buyer of the Diamond tables. Diamond don't pay for the oil changes, tires, breaks or anything else on my truck...the same one I'm buying from Diamond on monthly payments. So...I don't call that getting paid by Diamond for anything.
I do however receive royalties monthly for Diamonds ball polisher, I think we all know why
I buy my cloth from Simonis, no different than anyone else, and I've never cashed a check from Simonis made payable to me for ANY reason. So, I wouldn't take that bet to Vegas that I'm paid by either of the aforementioned companies.
As for players getting paid to play with a certain cue...that's old business. SVB is getting paid right now, and Allison is still getting paid...like I said...old business.
Now, as far as a table manufacturer quoting "all the Pro's loved our tables"...name the pro's.
There's a lot of "Pros" that say they support Diamond tables...Diamond don't pay for that comment. There's "Pros" that say they love playing on Brunswick tables...Brunswicks not paying for them comments either.
There's a lot of miss-conception going on about "Pro" players getting paid to say things.
On other thing about Simonis...I started pioneering Simonis cloth in the Pacific Northwest back in 1984 and had no contract with Hank, the Pres of Simonis at that time...and paid for the cloth I bought. When they started selling it to every mechanic besides me, I pioneered Granito cloth as well...but bought every rip of it as well.
As I've already said, it bothers me when a cloth manufacture tries to get sales of their product off the back of Simonis...when they've done nothing even close to what Simonis has done to support the players industry...by simply boasting that their cloth "Plays" better, and "Lasts" longer...but costs less.
Mechanic's know about cloth, customers who've had it put on there home tables for the most part...wouldn't know the difference between Simoniis or Championship...even if it jumped up off the table and bit them on the ass...yet give their "professional" opinion of the cloth on their table at home.
Haven't you ever seen the customers who've bought a Chinese made pool table being quoted as saying..."best table I've ever played on"...like they'd know the difference...it's a clothes line to them within 6 months.
Why don't mechanic's start going around saying, "hey, I'm just as good of a mechanic as RKC, I just cost less"....but fail to show you jack to back it up...are you going to believe them?
Glen
so your home table is a fusion??? all the pros at the fusion event claim it's the nuts....
of course you are a big boy and might shove all that slate into grandmas lap as an accident at thanksgiving dinner...
I'm not saying Simonis is "Junk" cloth .. but it wears out FAST.. you can get burn marks with ONE shot... replacement is the name of the game in your business...which puts more money into your pocket...
it's simply not in your best interest to recommend a more durable cloth..
right??
try not to place the cross behind your head with your right hand.. it makes your halo look crooked...
Simonis is the only company on the planet that can make a decent cloth.... jack up the price.. only the best in the world can install it correctly.. the rest of us are chumps...
the VAST majority of tourney players WIN and lose on mercury ultra
you have a narrow market... rich *****s who wouldn't know the difference..
I'm from the other group...the folks who play pool wherever whenever and play on the cloth that's on the table at the time... for a high end niche guy like you ... well you never get to meet actual pool players... you work for guys with a $50,000 cue collection but cant hit a stop shot to save their lives...
nice work if you can get it...
Bed and rails ran me $160 Canadian, blend is 80/20, I believe the same as Simonas
Walter
Don't worry, in time I'm going to field test Miliken with Simonis 860HR side by side in a bar...on bar tables
What cloth from Championship is used to make the Mecury Ultra? Do you even know?...seeings how you think you know so much about me, heres something for you to think about...I hardly ever come back and recover a table I've already done once...so how long a cloth lasts has nothing to do with putting more money in my pockets
I turn down more work than I ever do....because I make my living delivering pool tables to new customers...not working as a full time table mechanic. The only reason I went back to working as a mechanic was to help my income from delivering pool tables...because there's almost no profit in delivering tables all over the country...when the cost alone is $1.00 a mile to move a truck. You don't know me...and you don't know this industry like I do, you only think you do.
Glen
But when it comes to cue cases, you sit completely on the other side of this argument, don't you John. From now on, it would be very hypocritical of you to continue calling other people hypocrites.
Roger
hi
good point john. that sheds a whole new light on things for me. i did not realize milliken did so much.
also my post looked like i wrote it right after yours but i think i was doing mine at same time as u. i definitely wasnt trying to argue with u.
although im thrilled that simonis has done alot for pool its exciting to know milliken is interested in being a big part in things.
ive played on millliken and it plays greaT.
take care john.
p.s. i hear your working on a custum jbcase for me,that will be cool.looking forward to it.
good point john. that sheds a whole new light on things for me. i did not realize milliken did so much.
also my post looked like i wrote it right after yours but i think i was doing mine at same time as u. i definitely wasnt trying to argue with u.
although im thrilled that simonis has done alot for pool its exciting to know milliken is interested in being a big part in things.
ive played on millliken and it plays greaT.
take care john.
p.s. i hear your working on a custum jbcase for me,that will be cool.looking forward to it.
No Roger,
You don't get it, (sigh), as usual.
I don't CARE if ANYONE wants to claim that their product is superior or that other products are inferior.
That is called COMPETITION.
And the company making such claims should be able to BACK THEM UP.
If you had bothered to read the thread you would see that the POINT was that Simonis should not be accorded "special status" JUST BECAUSE they currently out-advertise the competition as some here suggested.
Should the get some extra consideration for that support, whatever it may really be? Of course they should as that exposure is the whole purpose of doing the advertising.
But JUST BECAUSE they advertise does not make them the ONLY choice, nor even the best choice.
--------------------------------------------
I will put this on a level you MIGHT be able to understand.
You have made some claims that your new cue is BUILT in a new and wonderful way that plays better than all others, or some similar sentiment. You have definitely said you have something new and great.
So next time you tout this new and great cue that you and you friends build how will it be if I come in and tell people to buy Cuetec instead because Cuetec spends a lot more money supporting pool than you do. Further to that I will claim that Cuetec MUST be a better cue than what you build simply because Cuetec has been around longer and spends more money.
Got it?
Don't worry, in time I'm going to field test Miliken with Simonis 860HR side by side in a bar...on bar tables
That would be great. Although you are clearly biased at least you will have a direct comparison to base your opinions on.
I will send you a free cut of Milliken to use if you promise to video the cloth after installation and once a month thereafter.
Then at least whatever your bias is can be balanced by raw footage.
John, I only know how to work on pool tables one way...and that's to the best of my ability
but if you're that concerned about the compairson between the cloths....I'll be back east in just a little while...so why don't you find some where that I can do the test...OK? I'm sure there's any number of places that would love to have me come in and recover 2 pool tables in your area...don't you think?Glen
Nothing is stopping Milikin from spending the same amount of advertising dollars Simonis spends...is there?
Has Milikin gone to Diamond and talked to them about promoting their cloth???...Have they gone to Brunswick?...how about Valley?...Olhausen maybe? What table manufacture today uses only Milikin cloth on their tables at the factory level?
See, this is my point, you just want to tell everyone that the cloth you promote is better, lasts longer, plays better....than Simonis, because they ARE the industry leader...so why not pick on them...after all, you DO have a better product...right?
No...you just want to go right to the top without having to actually climb the mountain...from sea level as Simonis has had to do. You just EXPECT to get on a helicopter and be taken right to the top of the mountain....so you can claim the flag at the top...and be back at home for dinner...without breaking a sweat, THAT'S my problem. YOU....are NOT even Milikin...YOU...are just a salesman...trying to sell a product...to put some profit dollars in your bank account...without really having to do much more than just handle the cloth...for distribution.
I HAVE talked to Sterling Game...Matt Carter...personally....so there's a little more to me than you know...but you wouldn't know that...because your a salesman...a mouth piece...barking at the top of the mountain...because you THINK you belong there, well...earn the right is all I have to say
Glen, the "Realkingcobra"!
John, I only know how to work on pool tables one way...and that's to the best of my ability
Glen
I wasn't implying that you would doctor the installation. When someone has a bias though they tend to skew their analysis of the results towards their bias.
You are a big fan of Simonis. So it's only natural that your subconscious inclination would be to look for all the positives about Simonis and all the negatives about Milliken when you perform a comparative test. Research has shown that most of us cannot over come our preconceived bias when comparing things. People who think that item A is better before the test tend to choose item A over the same identical item when it's "branded" differently.
People with no prejudgement tend to pick item A or B about equally.
People told that item B "might" have higher quality tend to pick item B more frequently.
The fact is that there are a lot of brands of very good pool table cloth on the market. If you covered an equal number of tables at any of the big shows with all the different brands then it's unlikely that most people would be able to tell the difference between them, or care after a few games.
As to you doing work in our area for this test it's not necessary. In the Charlotte area we have tested the Milliken cloth in many venues and the result is that we have many customers in that area who keep putting it on year after year. We have top mechanics from Florida and Charlotte who are well qualified to do the installs.
You should do the test for yourself so that you know the properties and how they compare from a mechanic's point of view and from a player's point of view. I think as long as you list your bias towards Simonis up front then people will accept that context.
You only THINK you have top mechanics, I've heard that a million times
Glen
Sorry, John, but you are the one who doesn't "get it." So let me put this on a level that even YOU might understand:
You are a fool. Plain and simple. You talk out of one side of your mouth one day, and out the other side the next. Do you ever say anything that makes sense?
Oh, and please bad mouth my cues all you want because I'm sure it will only help to convince more people that they should buy them.
Have a nice day. :wink:
Roger
No. How much money does Simonis spend?
It's Milliken. You know how to spell it. Please don't be disrespectful.
As I said to you before you are not in the loop. If however you want to compare amount of tables sold with x-brand of cloth versus Diamond's numbers as a way to somehow prove which cloth is "better" then Simonis is WAY behind. I honestly do not think that you want to do that.
Well, the basic law of competition is that in order to be the best you have to overtake the leader. In running I to run faster, in marketing I have to make bolder claims. In both situations I still have to prove myself.
Take it easy there chief. When did you become a principle in Simonis? I mean you are calling me a "salesman" as if this is something bad and yet you have described yourself as a salesman and promoter of Simonis cloth.
Ok, so that's the first part, now the second part is that again, we are competing with Simonis so we have to educate people as to WHY we think that they should consider our product.
I mean IF we are not any better or at least as good then why be in the marketplace? And if we are better then why not say that when the opportunity presents itself? Aren't you doing the same thing by claiming Simonis is SUPERIOR to all other cloths?
I HAVE talked to Sterling Game...Matt Carter...personally....so there's a little more to me than you know...but you wouldn't know that...because your a salesman...a mouth piece...barking at the top of the mountain...because you THINK you belong there, well...earn the right is all I have to say
Glen, the "Realkingcobra"!
Wow, you are really disturbed by this aren't you?
No it's not like Matt and I would talk about any conversations he has had with you on this subject. I mean we have only worked closely together for the better part of a decade.
But my question is so what? Why would I really care what you and Matt have talked about?
The question that started this thread is "What's the best NON-Simonis cloth on the market".
Thus the discussion is about OTHER brands, not Simonis. In that arena I feel that Milliken Super Pro is the best NON-Simonis cloth on the market because it last longer according to research Milliken has done, and plays better, according to research Milliken has done.
Now Championship ALSO claims that they are better than Simonis as well. They do it in advertisements saying that their claims are based on lab results. I am sure they are waiting on your scathing rebuke.
From one salesman to another, don't get too crazy, tomorrow you might be working for the other company