Whats the difference....?

[Zoltor]

Well in the USA, a pro(applied to all sports), is someone who plays for a living/makes a living playing(pays for, rent,food, exc off the money they get from the sport they play).

In otherwords, if pool is their main source of income, the person is a pro.

 

[MikeJanis]

A little off subject Mike, but I think you should give yourself more credit and put yourself up some from a C player. By your rating of yourself as a C player, your basically saying you're almost at the bottom of all of the scales listed and that is doing yourself an injustice. Of course these are just my opinions.

Thanks but you may have misread it just a little bit. I am at the top of the food chain in the Amateur not at the bottom of that category. D and beginner are just below me. My best game when I am playing 10 hours a day is only a B player at best on that scale and it rarely ever comes out. I guess you could say that my B player game is just an anomaly....

Maybe it's my side-arm stoke ? I think it limits my potential.

 

[ribdoner]

Thanks but you may have misread it just a little bit. I am at the top of the food chain in the Amateur not at the bottom of that category. D and beginner are just below me. My best game when I am playing 10 hours a day is only a B player at best on that scale and it rarely ever comes out. I guess you could say that my B player game is just an anomaly....

Maybe it's my side-arm stoke ? I think it limits my potential.

How much did KIETH pay you for lessons???????:scratchhead:

 

[watchez]

Do the above stats classify him as a PRO. Under some guidelines YES, Under others NO. Would I consider Kirkwood a Pro ? NO, even though his 19th and 29th place finishes in the IPT events along with his wins and High finishes in predominately Pro Caliber events do signify he is a PRO. However he still lacks 1 key element. That would be winning an all PRO event or a CHAMPIONSHIP such as the US Open or a WPA, IPT, PBT or heck even a WPBA event. I rate Kirkwood as a AAA player.

So, if you have not won an all PRO event or a CHAMPIONSHIP, you are not a PRO. Wow, I think you would upset a lot of people that think they are a PRO player with that definition as they would no longer qualify.

 

[MikeJanis]

How much did KIETH pay you for lessons???????:scratchhead:

I wish I had his skills. That's my Action Getter stroke !

All the time people ask me, "Mike, how do you play like that." I givem my standard answer about how short I was as a kid and couldn't reach the table and such. Ahh, the bait in th trap. the next question they ask is, "Do you want to play some?" Trap set and prey pounced on.........Ummm, sometimes.

Mj

 

[Fatboy]

MJ,

Go talk to Keith perhaps he can give you some tips on side arm teckniques.:grin:

I agree that a scale like you outlined from pro,aaa down to D or something there are about 8 or 9 tiers, then creating tournments that restrict say AA-pro would make it more resonable for a A- player to play in because he might have a shot at finishing high, somewhere to draw a line in the sand, and try not to piss-off too many players, just a thought like I said yesterday ,i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer on this topic,

I know that once upon a time I was a A- player by most standards, I couldnt beat most A players but I could beat all the B players, it was no-mans land. So because I didnt have $$$ I didnt play in open events and was banned from B player tournments. I played in Reno this past Dec I was better than the 1 guy I drew but I dumped the match(for my own reason) the second player in the losers side I might be able to have beat on a real good day i wasnt the favorite but I had a chance.


The reason I made this topic was because of the discussion recently about amature/pro events.


sorry the spelling is real bad today-just out of spelling stroke

fatboy

 

[MikeJanis]

So, if you have not won an all PRO event or a CHAMPIONSHIP, you are not a PRO. Wow, I think you would upset a lot of people that think they are a PRO player with that definition as they would no longer qualify.

Yeah, I am sure it would break some hearts. There are many players that consider themselves Pro's that really aren't. All the way back to the PBT days there were guys in events stating they were pros and getting recognition just because they played in the PBT, PCA, UPA, IPT and such. But they really didn't even fall into that class as a player.

On the other hand some of those guys were true pros in respect to how they presented themselves and many were a true asset to our sport as gentleman players.

Do you have a better system or suggestions on how that list can be revised ?

Mj

 

[MikeJanis]

MJ,

Go talk to Keith perhaps he can give you some tips on side arm teckniques.:grin:

I agree that a scale like you outlined from pro,aaa down to D or something there are about 8 or 9 tiers, then creating tournments that restrict say AA-pro would make it more resonable for a A- player to play in because he might have a shot at finishing high, somewhere to draw a line in the sand, and try not to piss-off too many players, just a thought like I said yesterday ,i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer on this topic,

I know that once upon a time I was a A- player by most standards, I couldnt beat most A players but I could beat all the B players, it was no-mans land. So because I didnt have $$$ I didnt play in open events and was banned from B player tournments. I played in Reno this past Dec I was better than the 1 guy I drew but I dumped the match(for my own reason) the second player in the losers side I might be able to have beat on a real good day i wasnt the favorite but I had a chance.


The reason I made this topic was because of the discussion recently about amature/pro events.


sorry the spelling is real bad today-just out of spelling stroke

fatboy

Fatboy, Keith and Jennie always have a standing offer with me in any of my events, Especially the BIG ones were I can provide hotel, food and expense monies ( Yes I still do this for many champions). Unfortunately they only took me up on the offer 1x and came to Cleveland. Unfortunately I didn't have the time at that event to pick his brain about it but I guarantee the next time I will be all over it.

I am familiar with the discussions. What do you think about my questions in that post to you regarding K-Wood and Schmidt ?

Mj

 

[watchez]

Yeah, I am sure it would break some hearts. There are many players that consider themselves Pro's that really aren't. All the way back to the PBT days there were guys in events stating they were pros and getting recognition just because they played in the PBT, PCA, UPA, IPT and such. But they really didn't even fall into that class as a player.

On the other hand some of those guys were true pros in respect to how they presented themselves and many were a true asset to our sport as gentleman players.

Do you have a better system or suggestions on how that list can be revised ?

Mj

I am not sure of all your rules but I think that you state that a player cannot be in your amateur event if they win X amount of times or if they are a 'known' player. Seems like, that for some Pros, the 'known' factor would also hold true even if they haven't won a championship. I am sure that there are a few top players out there that have never won a Pro event or championship. Maybe someone like Terry Ardeno will see this thread and comment as he seems to know his history of pool.

Also, would that Pro classification hold true to what events - US and World Events? How about players like Appleton, Karl Boyes who are English Champions? Are they Pros?

I also asked this before, what is the timeframe where someone would lose their Pro status. If they won an event, say 20 years ago, are they a Pro for life?

I don't think there is an easy answer.

 

[MikeJanis]

I also asked this before, what is the timeframe where someone would lose their Pro status. If they won an event, say 20 years ago, are they a Pro for life?

I don't think there is an easy answer.

Right now given the lack of standards on that I say PRO for life. At least until they are physically unable to play and just want to have fun but they shopuld still get the respect of PRO status.

There are a few old timers that I now allow to play in Amateur events that would normally not be allowed under my stats but they love the game and enjoy being around it soo much I can't say no. They are an inspiration for all of us.

TF Whittington is one of those players.


My rules are easy to find. Just go to www.viking9balltour.com in seperate categories those amateur status rules are easily refine to fit the other 2 (Open and PRO) categories.

 

[memikey]

.....But it got me thinking how is it that 2 closely matched players have different ranking status, JS won the US Open, is that why he is a pro? In golf there are specific guidlines that define the ranking of pros and the rest of the players, at least I think there is......

I can clarify the unsure golf part of your question Fatboy and it has nothing to do with 'ranking'. In golf there is a world pro ranking list and a world amateur ranking list. They are completely separate things........but then again I don't think you actually meant ranking.......I think you probably meant something more like how someone was 'classified' as being pro or amateur.

In golf there is a fairly simple differentiation line between pro and amateur.....and it is a differentiation which could probably never be fully mirrored in pool for reasons which will become obvious.......

If you accept prize money above a certain limit (which is upped from time to time to take account of inflation etc but isn't very high) or a prize above a certain valuation, for example holidays or air tickets, you are automatically from that day onwards "a pro" and are banned from all amateur events. It doesn't matter what your "ranking" is or even what your handicap is, if you take that prize money you are banned from all future amateur events.There have been cases of very high handicap 'hacker' amateurs winning cars for a "hole in one" in certain big corporate pro-am events and actually giving up their amateur status in order to keep the car. Others have waived the prize to stay amateur.

Similarly if lets say a top amateur accepts sponsorship from a company to compete in a top open event he will lose his amateur status if the sponsorship extends beyond the actual expense of him travelling to and competing in that event. Of course there are ways and means for some of the top amateurs to fiddle the sponsorship part a little but woe betide them if they are caught at it. I am a million miles from being a 'top' amateur but prior to the two European PGA Seniors Tour events which I participated in with the pros as a qualified or invited amateur I had to sign a waiver in advance of participating that I would not accept any prize money at all, not that there was a realistic chance of me actually winning much.

Furthermore anyone can basically declare themself to be "pro" as far as golf is concerned and thereby make themselves eligible for prize money or goods. Having said that, it's unlikely that such a self declared pro would be given membership of any of the world's pro players associations unless he had a very low handicap, usually scratch or better but some people have been accepted as 'pros' with a 4 handicap.....Ian Poulter for example turned 'pro' as a 4 handicap amateur.

Another way to find yourself automatically banned from amateur status in golf is if you earn fees for coaching or similar services which arise as a direct result of your ability at golf. That makes you a 'pro' because it disqualifies you from playing as an amateur.

Any pro can apply to have his pro status revoked and to be reinstated as an amateur but there is usually a lengthy waiting period for that to take effect and is rarely less than two years from application.

I can't imagine too many amateur pool players being willing to fork out hundreds/thousands of dollars in entry fees etc to take part in a pool tournament in which they know in advance they will not be allowed to accept any of the prize money above say a few hundred dollars without relinquishing the right to play in any future amateur competitions. Can you imagine many amateurs playing in Alan's million dollar challenge or in this years US Open, paying the same entry fee as the pros and incurring the same related expenditure of being there, more in many cases ......and yet agreeing in advance not to accept any prize money even if they finish in the money?? Call me a cynic....but I can't, it isn't in pool's nature

There really is no valid comparison between pool and golf at that level as far as how pro/amateur classification is defined and I doubt that there ever could be........but it doesn't stop a lot of us loving both games.

Uk style 8ball has a similar pro/amateur definition problem to yours. Only last week two former uk style 8 ball world champion pros reached and played out the final of an amateur only event paying substantial prize money. The lack of clear definition of 'pro' was the catalyst for enabling them to compete in the event and as usual has sparked considerable debate now that they have cashed.

 

[watchez]

Uk style 8ball has a similar pro/amateur definition problem to yours. Only last week two former uk style 8 ball world champion pros reached and played out the final of an amateur only event paying substantial prize money. The lack of clear definition of 'pro' was the catalyst for enabling them to compete in the event and as usual has sparked considerable debate now that they have cashed.

Who were the two?

 

[BigDogatLarge]

How can we all make it work for pool...

I can clarify the unsure golf part of your question Fatboy and it has nothing to do with 'ranking'. In golf there is a world pro ranking list and a world amateur ranking list. They are completely separate things........but then again I don't think you actually meant ranking.......I think you probably meant something more like how someone was 'classified' as being pro or amateur.

In golf there is a fairly simple differentiation line between pro and amateur.....and it is a differentiation which could probably never be fully mirrored in pool for reasons which will become obvious.......

If you accept prize money above a certain limit (which is upped from time to time to take account of inflation etc but isn't very high) or a prize above a certain valuation, for example holidays or air tickets, you are automatically from that day onwards "a pro" and are banned from all amateur events. It doesn't matter what your "ranking" is or even what your handicap is, if you take that prize money you are banned from all future amateur events.There have been cases of very high handicap 'hacker' amateurs winning cars for a "hole in one" in certain big corporate pro-am events and actually giving up their amateur status in order to keep the car. Others have waived the prize to stay amateur.

Similarly if lets say a top amateur accepts sponsorship from a company to compete in a top open event he will lose his amateur status if the sponsorship extends beyond the actual expense of him travelling to and competing in that event. Of course there are ways and means for some of the top amateurs to fiddle the sponsorship part a little but woe betide them if they are caught at it. I am a million miles from being a 'top' amateur but prior to the two European PGA Seniors Tour events which I participated in with the pros as a qualified or invited amateur I had to sign a waiver in advance of participating that I would not accept any prize money at all, not that there was a realistic chance of me actually winning much.

Furthermore anyone can basically declare themself to be "pro" as far as golf is concerned and thereby make themselves eligible for prize money or goods. Having said that, it's unlikely that such a self declared pro would be given membership of any of the world's pro players associations unless he had a very low handicap, usually scratch or better but some people have been accepted as 'pros' with a 4 handicap.....Ian Poulter for example turned 'pro' as a 4 handicap amateur.

Another way to find yourself automatically banned from amateur status in golf is if you earn fees for coaching or similar services which arise as a direct result of your ability at golf. That makes you a 'pro' because it disqualifies you from playing as an amateur.

Any pro can apply to have his pro status revoked and to be reinstated as an amateur but there is usually a lengthy waiting period for that to take effect and is rarely less than two years from application.

I can't imagine too many amateur pool players being willing to fork out hundreds/thousands of dollars in entry fees etc to take part in a pool tournament in which they know in advance they will not be allowed to accept any of the prize money above say a few hundred dollars without relinquishing the right to play in any future amateur competitions. Can you imagine many amateurs playing in Alan's million dollar challenge or in this years US Open, paying the same entry fee as the pros and incurring the same related expenditure of being there, more in many cases ......and yet agreeing in advance not to accept any prize money even if they finish in the money?? Call me a cynic....but I can't, it isn't in pool's nature

There really is no valid comparison between pool and golf at that level as far as how pro/amateur classification is defined and I doubt that there ever could be........but it doesn't stop a lot of us loving both games.

Uk style 8ball has a similar pro/amateur definition problem to yours. Only last week two former uk style 8 ball world champion pros reached and played out the final of an amateur only event paying substantial prize money. The lack of clear definition of 'pro' was the catalyst for enabling them to compete in the event and as usual has sparked considerable debate now that they have cashed.

I think most would agree that MJ has a system in place that works for him and his tour. Now, other posters in this thread have had some constructive thoughts about a ranking system. We have many great minds on this forum, that are about this sport. I know it is about the cash, but it is also about playing your best game against the balls, first, as well as keeping the opponent at bay. That said, what can we do to make a system that recognizes a persons ability and still make the sport attractive to outside sponsers and fans? There is a way to make it happen, we just have to find it and make it work. My example? Mr. Texas Express and RandyG. we all use their format for the rules. Those guys, Mr. Jewett, Mr. Ardano, and many others will make this happen right here on this forum. We will all put our ideas together and find a way. For free, for the love of the game. Right or wrong??? Then, Fatboy will have his answer.

Dwight

 

[memikey]

Who were the two?

Ben Davies from Wales, a former uk style 8 ball world champion (federation rules) and Carl Morris from England, a former uk style 8 ball world champion (wepf rules).

They can of course play American style pool too. You may recall Carl as holding an IPT tour card and Ben doing quite well in one IPT event as a qualifier. They are not old guys who were pros 'years ago'. Ben is 23 and Carl about mid thirties.

Not knocking them, far from it, the pro/amateur thing is a mess worldwide, making it difficult for tournament organisers to define the entry criteria without risking not filling an event. Who can blame the players for operating within any parameters that exist?

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[Scaramouche]

To distinguish between professional and amateur requires organizations in place that care.

An amateur can't win money. For example, Michele Wie, before she turned pro, couldn't accept money even though she finished high in professional events.

So, Fatboy, your question is premature. Ask it again when pool gets organized, in a few eons

 

[Only ERO's]

The difference between an amatuer & a pro, as it stands today, is one convinces him/herself that he/she can make a living playing pool and the other knows better.

The pros will whine and cry about money and beg for people to donate and put them into events whereas the amateur will use their own money to gamble, enter tourneys and flat out bust their @ss to get what they want/deserve.

 

[StrokeofLuck]

Only EROs, I think I smoked out of one of those things in your avatar in the 70's

What I get from Fatboy's post is that there are guys that might have top 10 ability that aren't listed as pros. The reason is: why would they? If there was money in pool like there is in golf or baseball or whatever and a person had top 10 ability they wouldn't be "flying under the radar", they'd be living the high life.

Pool's a great game but it leads a sorry life.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

don't shoot me for asking

Many have heard of hole in one contests in golf. More than a few times has a total hack (20 + handicap in my persoanl rankings, lol) flukes in a shot and wins a zillion dollars and is now a pro. Whatever... there's flaws in every system.

But why can't similar rules govern pool status?

On a different topic and one I would consider starting a thread for, but for fear of.... What is taxable income in pool? If I as a decent player enter a tourney and win a dime, am I supposed to report this income? What about a match with posted $ such as John and Jason - is John supposed to report his net proceeds? Are backers supposed to report? Would IRS reg's permit reporting of losses to offset income?

MikeJ, do you have to issue 1099's?

Matt <---- not an IRS fan, but reasonably obedient

 

[stuckart]

A pro is someone that doesn't have to gamble to make living expenses. A pro is someone who can play the pro events, have sponsors, commercials, products, etc.

An Amateur is someone that can't make a living off of professional tournament play alone. Gambling doesn't make you a professional anything, except a Gambler.

Pro's in any other sport CAN gamble, but they don't need that money to live.