whats the difference ?

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
a thread earlier about a bcapl 8 ball rule got me to thinking about something.

bcapl 8 ball is a point based game. the object is for your team to get your designated points before the other team does. the team that gets their points 1st wins.

apa 9 ball is a pont based game. the object is for each player to get their designated before before their opponent does. the player that gets their points 1st wins the match. the team with the most points after the matches are over wins.

as the title of the thread asks, whats the difference ?
 
lorider said:
a thread earlier about a bcapl 8 ball rule got me to thinking about something.

bcapl 8 ball is a point based game. the object is for your team to get your designated points before the other team does. the team that gets their points 1st wins.

apa 9 ball is a pont based game. the object is for each player to get their designated before before their opponent does. the player that gets their points 1st wins the match. the team with the most points after the matches are over wins.

as the title of the thread asks, whats the difference ?
Click to expand...

Besides the rules?

In APA, the sets are handicapped and each player only plays one opponent. In BCA, the games are not handicapped and each player plays every player in the opposing line-up.
 
Drew said:
Besides the rules?

In APA, the sets are handicapped and each player only plays one opponent. In BCA, the games are not handicapped and each player plays every player in the opposing line-up.
Click to expand...

thanks for the answer drew.

another question .

the apa player plays for their points based on their handicap. the team after 5 matches that has the most points wins.

in bca each player plays every opposing player once in a non handicapped game. again the team that gets their designated points 1st wins.

what determines the designated points the teams needed to win in a non handicapped game ?
 
lorider said:
thanks for the answer drew.

another question .

the apa player plays for their points based on their handicap. the team after 5 matches that has the most points wins.

in bca each player plays every opposing player once in a non handicapped game. again the team that gets their designated points 1st wins.

what determines the designated points the teams needed to win in a non handicapped game ?
Click to expand...

I assume we're talking about 8ball. APA 9ball is a totally different animal.

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. In BCA, the entire match is handicapped based on each individual player's rating: the stronger team must score more points than the weaker team. Subtract the sum of each player's rating on one team from the sum of each player's rating on the opposing team, and that's the handicap...I hope that made sense.

(Player1a+2a+3a+4a+5a) - (Player1b+2b+3b+4b+5c) = handicap
The weaker team adds the handicap to their final score. The team with the higher score wins the match.

In APA, each player is assigned a proficiency rating (2-7). The stronger player must win more games than the weaker player. The first player to win the required games earns his team 1 point. The team to win 3 points wins the match.
 
lorider said:
thanks for the answer drew.

another question .

the apa player plays for their points based on their handicap. the team after 5 matches that has the most points wins.

While the above is correct, 5 matches are played in an APA format.....The first team to 51 total points is the winner....Not a big deal, just thought I should clarify
Click to expand...
 
lorider,

FWIW, in the BCA 8-ball league I played in, we had a different way to rate the players than the A, B, C, D type of rating system. Each ball had a value of 1 point, including the 8-ball. In a four person team format, each player had a maximum of 32 points that could be made on a given night (40 points for a five person team). Our league operator took each persons point total for the weeks they played and averaged them (the best shooters may average 32 or 31 points per night, average shooter maybe 25 or 26 points per night). By using the four players averages, the LO would then figure out how many points per night the TEAM averages (a team of very strong players may average 128 to 126, while an average team may average around 100 to 105 points). The differences in the two teams averages is how many points/balls the better team spots the lesser team. This is a handicap format that is very similar to bowling. And.....about the only way to sandbag with this format is early in the season you can shoot bad to keep your average down (although this will cost your team wins more than likely), or at the last match of the evening when you KNOW your team has already won and it doesn't matter if you make another ball or not. In the league I played in there was never an issue of sandbagging because if you dogged a shot (accidently or on purpose), you may not get back to the table.

Just another piece of the puzzle you may be seeking the answer to.

Maniac
 
Drew said:
I assume we're talking about 8ball. APA 9ball is a totally different animal.

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. In BCA, the entire match is handicapped based on each individual player's rating: the stronger team must score more points than the weaker team. Subtract the sum of each player's rating on one team from the sum of each player's rating on the opposing team, and that's the handicap...I hope that made sense.

(Player1a+2a+3a+4a+5a) - (Player1b+2b+3b+4b+5c) = handicap
The weaker team adds the handicap to their final score. The team with the higher score wins the match.

In APA, each player is assigned a proficiency rating (2-7). The stronger player must win more games than the weaker player. The first player to win the required games earns his team 1 point. The team to win 3 points wins the match.
Click to expand...

thanks for replying again drew. this time i think you are off base a little. the question was how do you determine handicaps in bcapl. sorry if i didnt make it clear.

and you are wrong in your last sentence, that format applies to apa 8 ball.
 
s'portplayer said:
lorider said:
thanks for the answer drew.

another question .

the apa player plays for their points based on their handicap. the team after 5 matches that has the most points wins.

While the above is correct, 5 matches are played in an APA format.....The first team to 51 total points is the winner....Not a big deal, just thought I should clarify
Click to expand...

you are correct. thanks for clarifying that. my point ( no pun intended ) is that both games are point based and the objective is for your team to reach a predetermined number of points before the other team.

am i correct ? if so whats the difference between them ?
Click to expand...
 
Maniac said:
lorider,

FWIW, in the BCA 8-ball league I played in, we had a different way to rate the players than the A, B, C, D type of rating system. Each ball had a value of 1 point, including the 8-ball. In a four person team format, each player had a maximum of 32 points that could be made on a given night (40 points for a five person team). Our league operator took each persons point total for the weeks they played and averaged them (the best shooters may average 32 or 31 points per night, average shooter maybe 25 or 26 points per night). By using the four players averages, the LO would then figure out how many points per night the TEAM averages (a team of very strong players may average 128 to 126, while an average team may average around 100 to 105 points). The differences in the two teams averages is how many points/balls the better team spots the lesser team. This is a handicap format that is very similar to bowling. And.....about the only way to sandbag with this format is early in the season you can shoot bad to keep your average down (although this will cost your team wins more than likely), or at the last match of the evening when you KNOW your team has already won and it doesn't matter if you make another ball or not. In the league I played in there was never an issue of sandbagging because if you dogged a shot (accidently or on purpose), you may not get back to the table.

Just another piece of the puzzle you may be seeking the answer to.

Maniac
Click to expand...

thanks maniac, your very informative reply is the one i was looking for.

they say as you get older your memory starts to fade. there are time i cant remember what i had for lunch the day before lol.

bcapl was the 1st league i joined a few years ago. played for one year and then quit for personal reasons. i enjoyed it very much. iirc our handicap format was determined exactly like yours except we played 5 man teams.

under bcapl rules you are credited with all balls down ( whether you pocketed them or not ). it is very possible over a 5 game match to be credited for 4 or 5 balls you did not pocket.

under that scenario do you think being given credit for balls you did not make is an accurate reflection of how well you played or your true handicap ?

whats every bodys opinion on this ?
 
I see no need in changing the formats,way start jocking around a leauge format to suit a few,when there are so many that play an except the rules the way they are?
 
scratchs said:
I see no need in changing the formats,way start jocking around a leauge format to suit a few,when there are so many that play an except the rules the way they are?
Click to expand...

wanting to change it never crossed my mind. not even playing bcapl right now . just looking for peoples opinion on it versus apa 9 ball rules.

btw , whatever rules any league has is fine by me. i can play bar rules, bcapl, apa , napa, whatever they are. i know my opponent has to play by the same ones i do and thats fine by me.

i have never come on here *****ing about any rules except one time over the apa handicapping system. now that i understand how it works i am fine with it .

to clarify my posts, i was merely asking opinion and stating mine.
 
lorider said:
thanks for replying again drew. this time i think you are off base a little. the question was how do you determine handicaps in bcapl. sorry if i didnt make it clear.

and you are wrong in your last sentence, that format applies to apa 8 ball.
Click to expand...

I thought we were talking APA 8ball vs. BCA 8ball...my bad.

I've never thought about it before but I guess APA 9ball and BCA 8ball are very similar. Hmm...interesting.

To answer your other question: different leagues determine handicaps differently (I think). Around here, it's a moving average of your previous performance.
 
lorider said:
thanks maniac, your very informative reply is the one i was looking for.

they say as you get older your memory starts to fade. there are time i cant remember what i had for lunch the day before lol.

bcapl was the 1st league i joined a few years ago. played for one year and then quit for personal reasons. i enjoyed it very much. iirc our handicap format was determined exactly like yours except we played 5 man teams.

under bcapl rules you are credited with all balls down ( whether you pocketed them or not ). it is very possible over a 5 game match to be credited for 4 or 5 balls you did not pocket.

under that scenario do you think being given credit for balls you did not make is an accurate reflection of how well you played or your true handicap ?

whats every bodys opinion on this ?
Click to expand...

I will weigh in on this.

I agree that the balls made by an opponent can skew a handicap a bit, but I don't think it makes that big a difference. I would think that 4 or 5 balls a night would not happen that much. It is most likely 1 or 2 balls.
I think that all hanicap systems (including APA) should have some kind of cacluation in the formula to accomodate for ball in hand. I thnk whether a player has 0 or 2 or 4 balls in hand in a match can mean a great deal in skill level.

Maniac is right in that the BCA system is the hardest to cheat. Although, I did see a lot of teams win the first 3 rounds and then dump a few matches or win the first 3 matches in a round and then dump the next 2 in that round but still win the round.

The issue I have with the BCAPL system is that it is not enough of a handicap to stop the stacked team from dominating. I played on a team that would typically take 22 or 23 of the 25 individual matches (a good number of them with Break and Runs and so you have a 10-0 or a 10-1 score being posted repeatedly and the lesser skilled teams (even good ones) could not make up the ground. My team won 4 sessions straight, which should not happen in a handicap league that works.

The best system I have seen is the APA 9-ball and that is because your dominance in the overall match is determined by every player and every ball they make. All points made in the session count in the final standings and if you have a close division (which I do play in) the separation can be as little as 5 or 10 points heading into the final week. I do think they could make it beter by adding a ball in hand component.

Just my opinion

Leagueguy
 
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LeagueGuy said:
I will weigh in on this.

I agree that the balls made by an opponent can skew a handicap a bit, but I don't think it makes that big a difference. I would think that 4 or 5 balls a night would not happen that much. It is most likely 1 or 2 balls.
I think that all hanicap systems (including APA) should have some kind of cacluation in the formula to accomodate for ball in hand. I thnk whether a player has 0 or 2 or 4 balls in hand in a match can mean a great deal in skill level.

Maniac is right in that the BCA system is the hardest to cheat. Although, I did see a lot of teams win the first 3 rounds and then dump a few matches or win the first 3 matches in a round and then dump the next 2 in that round but still win the round.

The issue I have with the BCAPL system is that it is not enough of a handicap to stop the stacked team from dominating. I played on a team that would typically take 22 or 23 of the 25 individual matches (a good number of them with Break and Runs and so you have a 10-0 or a 10-1 score being posted repeatedly and the lesser skilled teams (even good ones) could not make up the ground. My team won 4 sessions straight, which should not happen in a handicap league that works.

The best system I have seen is the APA 9-ball and that is because your dominance in the overall match is determined by every player and every ball they make. All points made in the session count in the final standings and if you have a close division (which I do play in) the separation can be as little as 5 or 10 points heading into the final week. I do think they could make it beter by adding a ball in hand component.

Just my opinion

Leagueguy
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thanks for the reply leagueguy. i agree with your opinion whole heartedly.
 
I think the major difference between BCA 8 Ball and APA 9 Ball is that the BCA handicap is on the team as a whole, and the APA handicap is on the individual shooters. BCA uses the team's total score to decide the win, and APA uses the players' handicaps to decide the teams' points.

That's another difference I just thought of, though. In BCA each ball you make counts as a point towards the team's total. In APA, your points in the match and your "match score" are related but not 1 for 1. Let's say I'm an APA 7 playing an APA 6. I have to get to 55; my opponent needs 46. If the final score is 55 to 45, I win the match with a score of 12 to 8. If the final score is 55 to 3, i win with a match score of 20-0.

It makes more sense if you're playing it.
 
lorider said:
wanting to change it never crossed my mind. not even playing bcapl right now . just looking for peoples opinion on it versus apa 9 ball rules.

btw , whatever rules any league has is fine by me. i can play bar rules, bcapl, apa , napa, whatever they are. i know my opponent has to play by the same ones i do and thats fine by me.

i have never come on here *****ing about any rules except one time over the apa handicapping system. now that i understand how it works i am fine with it .

to clarify my posts, i was merely asking opinion and stating mine.
Click to expand...

I didn't think you where,the guestion mark was a mistake..I was just throughing my opinion out there.more like a statement I guess..I've never seen you post up anything I would concender garbage..
You have a good evening.
 
scratchs said:
I didn't think you where,the guestion mark was a mistake..I was just throughing my opinion out there.more like a statement I guess..I've never seen you post up anything I would concender garbage..
You have a good evening.
Click to expand...

thanks scratchs. i hope you didnt take my post wrong. i agree with your opinion. maybe i worded my reply wrong, i was in a hurry to get to work for half a day then go shoot league. just got home.

you have a good evening also.:smile:
 
Drew said:
I thought we were talking APA 8ball vs. BCA 8ball...my bad.

I've never thought about it before but I guess APA 9ball and BCA 8ball are very similar. Hmm...interesting.

To answer your other question: different leagues determine handicaps differently (I think). Around here, it's a moving average of your previous performance.
Click to expand...

yes i agree it is interesting that both game formats are similar. the goal of both games is to get to a predetermined number of points before the opposing team does.

another interesting thing is i brought up what is usually a pretty controversial subject in this forum and have had over 300 views and about a dozen posts so far. all the posts have been civil and very informative . i guess its all about what words you use to approach a subject.

i think in this thread that we have surmised that both games are similar which is what i thought when i started this thread.

if i had worded this thread as there was no difference between the 2 games i would have had over 100 posts by now and 90 % of them would be of the negative variety concerning the apa . lol
 
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