What's the lowest cut shot angle possible??

mosconiac said:
Due to the size of the balls in play, there is no 90* cut for any practical shot on the table (non-frozen). The shallowest cut angle occurs where the cue ball would be 9' (108") away. Even so, the maximum cut angle allowed by geometry is: 88.8*. This is found from arctan(108/2.25)....

Your measuring the cut angle from the line between the centers of the balls. The convention is to measure it from the cueball's initial direction.

But if you do it your way, the distance from head rail to foot rail is actually 100", not 108", and you have to subtract both ball's radii from this. Still, your result is very close. The actual value is 88.7 degrees.

Jim
 
In my opinion (sorry guys and girls I can't provide the math to back this up) One of the links below IS cuttable the other is NOT.

This is assuming you are intending to cut the 8-ball in striaght down the rail without hitting the rail.

Notice the Headstring Line between the CB and the 8-Ball.....For my comfort zone when making my decision if I am going to attempt to cut the ball in, I look for the (Headstring) line to be about the width of the shaft on my cue....anything less than that is not cuttable (for the money)


START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hh3C9%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pf7M9
)END


START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hh3C9%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg0M9
)END


Math and Physics will probably prove me wrong all day......but logic tells me that this is WAY to low a percentage shot to attempt with money on the line....even if it IS possible.
 
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Jude Rosenstock said:
...After this collision whether the friction be collision-enduced-throw or spin-enduced-throw and assuming there is no draw or follow, the cue-ball will travel in a 90 degree path from the path of the object-ball. That is to say, if you could cut a ball 90 degrees, the cue-ball would not change course (see figure 4.2). To cut a ball sharper than 90 degrees would mean that the cue-ball would deflect on the same side of its original path as the object-ball it is colliding with.
The 90 degree rule is not an absolute. The cueball takes off at approximately 90 degrees for most shots, but not exactly. Why? Because of throw (and some inelasticity of the collision, but we won't go there).

So suppose you hit the object ball at a geometric cut angle of 87 degrees, and throw added another 5 degrees. The cueball will take off down the original tangent line of the 87 degree cut, but will be sped up a little by the throw (the friction acts equally and oppositely on the balls). In the meantime, the object ball will have been propelled backward along the tangent line by the same friction (in addition to forward along line of centers by the compression force) for an effective cut angle of 87 + 5, or 92 degrees.

Okay, a slight modification to the above. The original tangent line will also shift because of the compression of the balls, probably about a degree for a hard hit shot. This should mean, but I'm not sure, that you'll get an effective cut angle of about 93 degrees.

Jude Rosenstock said:
I would be fascinated if someone took the time to plug-in our scenario into all of the equations that apply. However, I'm reserved to believe that the results will only convey my conviction that a cut sharper than 90 degrees, even with maximum side-spin is impossible. If anything, even if mathematics could prove the possibility existed, it's practicality would justify this debate moot.
If you were masochistic enough to read my last two posts, they indicate that the 90+ shot is possible, and with an amount of spin that is quite obtainable. For a cueball speed of 12 mph and a geometric cut angle of 87 degrees, throw is predicted to be over 5 degrees when using a spin/speed ratio (RW/V) of 1.034, where maximum throw occurs. However, at a ratio of 1.01, it drops down to less than 3 degrees (actually less than 2 degrees), yielding less than a 90 degree cut. At the other end, it drops below 3 degrees at a ratio of 1.17. That's what I meant by the tolerances being very tight! But the ratios should be obtainable in that you probably can get something closer to 1.25 with maximum tip offset.

These numbers depend somewhat on knowing the precise dependence of the coefficient of friction on surface speed, which to be honest, is not that well established.

Jim
 
Jal said:
These numbers depend somewhat on knowing the precise dependence of the coefficient of friction on surface speed, which to be honest, is not that well established.

Jim


Wait, does this mean that you didn't factor in surface friction at all or you're using a number which may not be consistent with a given table?
 
Bob Jewett said:
... I think it's reasonable to restrict the discussion to shots that can be made at least 10%-20% of the time. Here's the open-table setup I tried: put the object ball on the center spot (exactly between the two side pockets, not usually marked on tables). Put the cue ball on the head string. See how close you can get the cue ball to the head spot and still cut the object ball in the side. My best for a reasonable percentage (about 15%) was 80 degrees.

If anyone wants to try this and report the result, just let us know how close the cue ball was to a ball spotted on the head spot and I'll do the geometry to find the angle... ...
Has anyone else actually tried this shot? Ten minutes on the table is worth days of arm-chair buffoonery.
 
BRKNRUN said:
Did the ball go in without touching the rail?
Was that rail first cut?

I can't imagine you just cut that straight in without either of the above taking place
I believe it skimmed the rail just out from the point...
________
 
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Jude Rosenstock said:
Wait, does this mean that you didn't factor in surface friction at all or you're using a number which may not be consistent with a given table?
Surface friction is at the heart of the matter. But it's friction between the balls, not between the balls and the cloth, which is negligible by comparison even at these cut angles. Obviously, there is going to be some variation between sets of balls, which makes getting the spin right even tougher than it already is.

I quoted figures to two and three decimal places to indicate how fast things change with a slight alteration in the spin/speed ratio. Unless something unexpected is going on, I suspect these numbers are reasonably close to their real world values, but I would hardly think that they're right on the money. In their favor is the fact that when the cueball ends up rolling across the object ball before the completion of the impact, the amount of throw does not depend on the value of the coefficient of friction. However, getting it to roll at the very end of impact (maximum throw) does. Unless the expected values for the coefficient are way off, or the physics is way off, the numbers I cited should, I think, be a fair representation.

Here is a list of predicted throw angles for geometric cuts from 85 to 90 degrees, with various spin/speed ratios (rwz/v in the headers). One set treats the coefficient of friction as constant during impact (Dr. Alciatore's version), and the other treats it as variable during impact (it changes with changes in surface speed during impact).

http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/gtech/Throw.90.txt

Jim
 
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