What's The Ruling?

FLICKit said:
But isn't the issue being discussed between you two, that if you put the cue ball on the table and it falls into a pocket, before you take a shot, then should it be a foul or not?
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No that wasn't the issue, but nice try.
 
DoomCue said:
Yes, or so I thought.

-djb
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You guys like to change the subject to suit yourself. I never said ANYTHING about dropping the cue ball and having it fall into a pocket. My comments were in respect to the following situation: After the cue ball is placed on the table in a BIH situation, if the player is moving it around WITH HIS CUE and it is knocked into a pocket, is that a foul? And I said yes, it should be.

And then we got into the discussion as to what the "rules" said about just this scenario. So please if you want to argue with me, that's fine. Just don't misquote me or make up a scenario that I did not discuss. You guys should be on the BCA rules committee. You would fit right in with Manny and Moe.
 
DoomCue said:
Hmm. I see you can be literal when you want to, except when we're talking about rules. Nice side-step of the real question I asked.

You see a significant difference, but I don't. Either way, you're moving the ball with your hand. Whether you accidentally or purposefully move it doesn't matter. Can you cite a BCA rule concerning BIH and a player's intent?

I agree, if you drop the CB and it moves any OB, you have fouled. This is explicitly named as a foul in the BCA rules. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it here, though.

Since you've declined to post what rules you're applying, I'm going to assume, since you continue to say so, that you're going by your own opinion, which frankly, surprises the hell out of me. I know you've been around pool for a long time, and I know you are deeply entrenched and intertwined with the world of pool. I have always held you in the highest regard, and will continue to do so. Like I said though, I'm really surprised that you would approve of an interpretation of rules rather than the actual rules.

-djb
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David, I gave you a direct answer to a direct question. And you call that side stepping?

And you see no difference in picking up the cue ball from the table (scenario 1), and placing the cue ball in position on the table (scenario 2)? David, you would not do well in a court of law, but you would make an excellent BCA referee. They do vague well.

I am yet to be convinced by anything I read on here that the actual rules covering this situation have been clarified. And if in fact, the BCA rule is that moving the cue ball with the cue stick and causing it to fall into a pocket is not a foul, I think this is a bad rule. Whether you or anyone else agrees with me does not change my opinion.
 
Official WPA interpretation on this rule !

So I asked WPA officials this question by email, with 4 different scenarios I added and this is how it goes by the rulebook in WPA (also BCA):

"Situation: a player has a ball in hand, it is not speficied if he/she is
playing 9-/8-ball or 14.1.

Questions:

a) the player places the cueball on the table and accidentaly drops it
in the pocket, foul or not ?

b) the player places the cueball on the table near a pocket and uses his
cue to adjust the cueball's position and proceeds to drop it in the
pocket, foul or not ?

c) the player places the cueball on the table and accidentaly drops a
piece of chalk on top of it, foul or not ?

d) the player uses the rest/rake to shoot and before he takes the shot,
hits the cueball with the rest/rake, foul or not ?

No other balls are disturbed during the events above."

Results:
a) NO foul
b) NO foul
c) foul
d) foul

And the aftermath ? If you have a BIH, you can indeed make a foul without first making a legal attempt to shoot the cueball with a forward motion, but it's not a foul to drop the cueball into the pocket.
 
My first reaction was that any time the cueball lands in a hole, that is a scratch. But I guess the rules say it isn't.

I like modified BCA rules too. 8 ball on B is a win, 8 ball scratch is loss, choice of group after the B. The one I have a problem is, is that it's NOT loss of game to scratch on the 8 ball, UNLESS you also pocket it! :eek:

And we should definitely be able to position the cueball with our cues!! It became evident very quickly in the IPT. Being short, I have to go around the table several times to place it, then line up the shot, place it, line up the shot. A few times, the ball has almost been almost out of reach of my cuestick too! :p Very often, I can't play the correct shot, can't get the angle for a breakout with BIH, but have to change my angle or my intended pocket so that I avoid using the bridge. (But a lot of times I still go for it with the bridge anyway, lol.)
 
mjantti said:
So I asked WPA officials this question by email, with 4 different scenarios I added and this is how it goes by the rulebook in WPA (also BCA):

"Situation: a player has a ball in hand, it is not speficied if he/she is
playing 9-/8-ball or 14.1.

Questions:

a) the player places the cueball on the table and accidentaly drops it
in the pocket, foul or not ?

b) the player places the cueball on the table near a pocket and uses his
cue to adjust the cueball's position and proceeds to drop it in the
pocket, foul or not ?

c) the player places the cueball on the table and accidentaly drops a
piece of chalk on top of it, foul or not ?

d) the player uses the rest/rake to shoot and before he takes the shot,
hits the cueball with the rest/rake, foul or not ?

No other balls are disturbed during the events above."

Results:
a) NO foul
b) NO foul
c) foul
d) foul

And the aftermath ? If you have a BIH, you can indeed make a foul without first making a legal attempt to shoot the cueball with a forward motion, but it's not a foul to drop the cueball into the pocket.
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Thanks Mj. for this clarification. I think b) should be changed to a foul, if it is not already. It is a gray area that needs clarification. My feeling is that if a player is moving the cue ball with his cue, he takes responsibility for where it goes (or falls). The same would apply if he is movng the cue ball with his cue and it touches another ball. That should be a foul also. Ask the WPA official what would be the ruling in this scenario. It is very similar to b) above, in respect to the fact that it takes place while moving the cue ball with the cue in a BIH situation. I am curious to see what he says about this. Thanks.
 
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jay helfert said:
The same would apply if he is movng the cue ball with his cue and it touches another ball. That should be a foul also...It is very similar to b) above, in respect to the fact that it takes place while moving the cue ball with the cue in a BIH situation.
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With BIH moving the cue ball in any fashion that disturbs any other ball on the table is a FOUL. So in your new scenario that would clearly be a foul.

Note: The big difference from b) above is that one affects other balls on the table, while the other scenario does not.
 
FLICKit said:
With BIH moving the cue ball in any fashion that disturbs any other ball on the table is a FOUL. So in your new scenario that would clearly be a foul.

Note: The big difference from b) above is that one affects other balls on the table, while the other scenario does not.
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My point being that if this is a foul, then moving the cue ball into the pocket should be as well. Just my humble opinion.

Look, they can make any kind of rules they want. I just don't have to agree that they are good ones.

The entire billiards industry is quite fragmented anyway. It is hard to come to any agreement on anything with all the misc. "governing" bodies. Everyone wants to be in charge.

I have seen so many variations of the rules in my lifetime, you would not believe it. And they can vary from city to city, state to state and country to country. I think one must use common sense in creating rules for a pool game of any kind. And I see that lacking in many instances in rule books today. And in the way rules are enforced as well.
 
One of my favorite quotes... Rules are made for the obedience of fools... and guidance of the wise.
 
jay helfert said:
Thanks Mj. for this clarification. I think b) should be changed to a foul, if it is not already. It is a gray area that needs clarification. My feeling is that if a player is moving the cue ball with his cue, he takes responsibility for where it goes (or falls). The same would apply if he is movng the cue ball with his cue and it touches another ball. That should be a foul also. Ask the WPA official what would be the ruling in this scenario. It is very similar to b) above, in respect to the fact that it takes place while moving the cue ball with the cue in a BIH situation. I am curious to see what he says about this. Thanks.
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No need to ask, touching another ball is always a foul, no matter in what circumstances. Exception is of course if the match is played under "cueball fouls only"
 
I never knew this would be so confusing, and complex.

So, I move the cue ball around with my shaft with BIH, then I accidentally move another ball, cue ball foul only, is that a foul, or shall we move the object ball back?
 
Bob Jewett said:
If the cue ball needs to be picked up from a tight situation, the player with BIH should ask the person who is acting as the referee -- his opponent who just fouled -- to pick up the cue ball and hand it to him. In general, a player who fouls when no referee is present should acknowledge the foul by picking the cue ball up and handing it or rolling it to his opponent.

Similarly, when a ball needs to be spotted, the non-shooter should do the spotting.
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I totally agree here, interestingly enough our lovely manhattan APA league operator has decided that in these instances it is the person *with* ball in hand required to pick up the cue, even if it is sandwiched between your opponents balls in a way that makes it nearly impossible to pick up without fouling...idiotic ruling.
 
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