What's The Ruling?

[BillYards]

Jay, Bob, Group, I have been biting my tongue since I 1st read this post. I find i very interesting because I had a very similiar situation happen to myself back in 1993/4? at the BCA 8-Ball Championships.

Here is what happened.....

My opponent scratched an I received BIH. I was walking around the table trying to see my way to run out. As I was walking around the table I was sliding the CB along the top rail, when I came to the side pocket the plastic on the pocket cought the CB and it slipped out of my hand and into the pocket.


What would your ruling be on that ?

Also, would your ruling be different if in the same scenario I simply just dropped the CB on the floor ?

No shot, no foul.

My advice is: never use your stick to adjust the lie of the cueball when you get ball in hand. Never. If you can't reach it, walk around the table. Why would a person do that when placing the cueball in a tight spot (i.e. near a pocket) anyway?

I certainly see Jay's point, but under the rules, it is clearly no foul.

I also disagree about Jay's assessment of the rules. I think that MOST of the rules written by the BCA, APA, and VNEA promote fair and unencumbered play.

The problem is that it takes a lot of text to outline the rules and after you chew through it, they really are not that difficult and are actually quite straight forward (dare I say "logical"?).

 

[BillYards]

Jay, Bob, Group, I have been biting my tongue since I 1st read this post. I find i very interesting because I had a very similiar situation happen to myself back in 1993/4? at the BCA 8-Ball Championships.

Here is what happened.....

My opponent scratched an I received BIH. I was walking around the table trying to see my way to run out. As I was walking around the table I was sliding the CB along the top rail, when I came to the side pocket the plastic on the pocket cought the CB and it slipped out of my hand and into the pocket.


What would your ruling be on that ?

Also, would your ruling be different if in the same scenario I simply just dropped the CB on the floor ?

If they called a foul on you for that... then if you dropped the cueball and it just happened to pocket one of your balls, they should let you keep right on shooting! Right??

 

[fish on]

Sorry guys, been so busy at work-

The ruling is that when adjusting the cue-ball, you are acting within the entitlements of Ball-in-Hand hence the cue-ball is not live. Interestingly, the APA rulebook does not cover such a scenario.

In my opinion, interpreting a rule is similar to interpreting a document such as the Constitution. It's important to know where a set of rules derives from and to also know the meaning of given situations. The APA Rules obviously derived from the BCA Rulebook. What complicates things is that both have evolved since and have taken on lives of their own. However, this is definitely an instance where a general understanding of the BCA rules is necessary.

There was an argument in New York City involving two APA teams and it was assessed that all scenarios where the cue-ball goes in a pocket or lands on the floor is a foul which is obviously ridiculous. The rule was referencing live scenarios where the player is in the act of shooting - NOT ball-in-hand situations where the player is exercising their right to move the cue-ball.

There are fouls that CAN be called there but those fouls are specifically outlines and frequently involve disturbance of other balls. Dropping chalk on a cue-ball even if the player has ball-in-hand is a foul but since they are not in the act of placement (the cue-ball has been placed), it's considered live.

If you want the rule ,go to the APA or BCA for a ruling!!! They both are on net.

 

[Thunderball]

No way its a foul imo.

Hitting another ball with the cue ball would be a foul,but not a pocket.

Simply put it hasn't changed the game and the guy wasn't even shooting...why would it be a foul?

Is it also a foul if he drops it on the floor?

Even if there was some way to interpret the rules where I could in good faith call that foul I never would.

 

[Craig Fales]

If the cue ball is not in play when it's on the table, when is it in play?

After it's been hit with the tip in a forward stroking motion....

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, Bob, Group, I have been biting my tongue since I 1st read this post. I find i very interesting because I had a very similiar situation happen to myself back in 1993/4? at the BCA 8-Ball Championships.

Here is what happened.....

My opponent scratched an I received BIH. I was walking around the table trying to see my way to run out. As I was walking around the table I was sliding the CB along the top rail, when I came to the side pocket the plastic on the pocket cought the CB and it slipped out of my hand and into the pocket.


What would your ruling be on that ?

Repost this response.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, Bob, Group, I have been biting my tongue since I 1st read this post. I find i very interesting because I had a very similiar situation happen to myself back in 1993/4? at the BCA 8-Ball Championships.

Here is what happened.....

My opponent scratched an I received BIH. I was walking around the table trying to see my way to run out. As I was walking around the table I was sliding the CB along the top rail, when I came to the side pocket the plastic on the pocket cought the CB and it slipped out of my hand and into the pocket.


What would your ruling be on that ?

Also, would your ruling be different if in the same scenario I simply just dropped the CB on the floor ?

I would not call that a foul Mike. Or call a foul if you dropped the cue ball. It is entirely different if you touch the cue ball with your cue (even the ferrule) and knock it into a pocket or another ball. That I would call a foul. How about you?

 

[jay helfert]

No shot, no foul.

My advice is: never use your stick to adjust the lie of the cueball when you get ball in hand. Never. If you can't reach it, walk around the table. Why would a person do that when placing the cueball in a tight spot (i.e. near a pocket) anyway?

I certainly see Jay's point, but under the rules, it is clearly no foul.

I also disagree about Jay's assessment of the rules. I think that MOST of the rules written by the BCA, APA, and VNEA promote fair and unencumbered play.

The problem is that it takes a lot of text to outline the rules and after you chew through it, they really are not that difficult and are actually quite straight forward (dare I say "logical"?).

I think the BCA has butchered the rules of Eight Ball. For a zillion years, the way the game was played nearly everywhere was that if you made the eight on the break you won. And whatever you made on the break determined your choice of balls. In their infinite wisdon they chose to change these well established rules, that were actually quite good.

What could be more exciting than making the eight on the break? It is VERY hard to do and only happens rarely, so it should be rewarded. And what could be more logical than if you make a stripe ball, you have stripes. And if you break so well that you make both a stripe and a solid, the table is open. What's wrong with rewarding players who play the game well?

If anything, changing these rules, muddled the waters for eight ball players everywhere. Now all this must be discussed before a friendly game (with a wager) is made in taverns across America. There used to be agreement on these essential rules. But no more, thanks to the geniuses on the BCA rules committee.

 

[jay helfert]

If they called a foul on you for that... then if you dropped the cueball and it just happened to pocket one of your balls, they should let you keep right on shooting! Right??

If you drop the cue ball and it hits an object ball, it is a foul. Why is this so hard to understand? Maybe some people just like to argue about things.

 

[jay helfert]

After it's been hit with the tip in a forward stroking motion....

I disagree.

 

[VIProfessor]

I think the BCA has butchered the rules of Eight Ball. For a zillion years, the way the game was played nearly everywhere was that if you made the eight on the break you won. And whatever you made on the break determined your choice of balls. In their infinite wisdon they chose to change these well established rules, that were actually quite good.

What could be more exciting than making the eight on the break? It is VERY hard to do and only happens rarely, so it should be rewarded. And what could be more logical than if you make a stripe ball, you have stripes. And if you break so well that you make both a stripe and a solid, the table is open. What's wrong with rewarding players who play the game well?

If anything, changing these rules, muddled the waters for eight ball players everywhere. Now all this must be discussed before a friendly game (with a wager) is made in taverns across America. There used to be agreement on these essential rules. But no more, thanks to the geniuses on the BCA rules committee.

I think, Jay, that the BCA was trying to remove the elements of luck from the game, and the two things that you mentioned are just the things that introduce luck into eight ball. I don't have a problem with awarding a win for breaking in the eight, but I do have a problem with not having an open table after the break. Group selection based on what fell on the break turns eight ball into a game that is often determined by luck. You can make two solids on the break but the rest are tied up together, while the stripes are sitting free and clear. What's fair about that? Why should the vagaries of chance determine who has the strategic advantage to start the game?

I've played a lot of bar rules and BCA rule eight ball in my life and IMHO, there is no comparison--the BCA rules are far better.

 

[cigardave]

I've played a lot of bar rules and BCA rule eight ball in my life and IMHO, there is no comparison--the BCA rules are far better.

Personally, I favor a hybrid mix of the rules... after the break, I like the group choice aspect of the BCA rules... but I also like the (Vegas version) rule that an 8-ball on the break (w/o scratching) is win of game.

And yes, I can accept a loss of game if the 8 is made on the break and the cue ball either finds a pocket or flies off of the table.

 

[VIProfessor]

Personally, I favor a hybrid mix of the rules... after the break, I like the group choice aspect of the BCA rules... but I also like the (Vegas version) rule that an 8-ball on the break (w/o scratching) is win of game.

And yes, I can accept a loss of game if the 8 is made on the break and the cue ball either finds a pocket or flies off of the table.

That's more than fine with me!

 

[MikeJanis]

I would not call that a foul Mike. Or call a foul if you dropped the cue ball. It is entirely different if you touch the cue ball with your cue (even the ferrule) and knock it into a pocket or another ball. That I would call a foul. How about you?

Jay, unfortunately for me the BCA Ref called it a foul and gave BIH to my opponent. The only good part for me after that happened is that it put me on tilt and I whent to the casino and bet my last $800 at the Roulette table and won 28K. That helped to make the ref's decision a little more barable to me but i'm still pissed off about it 14 years later.

In the 1st scenario I would not call it a foul. It's one of those touchy scenarios that common senses tells me that the CB was not in play at the time, it did not effect the current game condition or the possible outcome of the game and it is definately not covered in the rules.

Mj

 

[cuetable]

I have a goofy situation here that happened to me. It is almost like "the opposite" situation to the shot in this thread.

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=161

A lot of people considered this a scratch in a tournament.
They think "the CB is supposed to scratch in a normal situation".
However, it didn't. And we have to worry about "double hitting" for the incoming player and so forth... (good thing this happens rarely)



Now, back to the topic...

In Jude's example, most of people think "the CB is not supposed to scratch" or "the player didn't mean it". However, his cue touched the CB and the CB did drop (whether it's caused by the cue or not)

I think this is one of the arguments in this thread:

When does the incoming player's inning actually start after given Ball-In-Hand?



IMO it's "after he has set the CB with HIS HAND", however, this is just my own opinion.

 

[DoomCue]

I disagree.

According to the BCA rules, your disagreement would result in a player being screwed.

From the BCA rules: "...it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand."

I don't think it gets any plainer than that - by BCA rules, BIH doesn't end until the tip strikes the ball. There isn't anything expressly prohibiting the CB ending up in a pocket, on the floor, or back in your hand again during BIH. Infinite adjustments can be made until the tip actually strikes the CB. You can't disturb any other balls during BIH, but other than that, it seems that anything goes, including knocking the CB into the pocket.

I understand you're arguing that the rules are wrong, but the rules are the rules. In this case, there's no foul, regardless of opinion - this seems to be black-letter and not open to interpretation.

APA rules are a little more vague, however.

-djb

 

[Tom In Cincy]

With BIH,

It is a foul to touch any object ball with the cue ball.
But, you can accidently move OBs with your fingers, hand or big belly without penalty (in a un-ref'd match) Cue ball fouls only.

When does the cue ball become 'in play' with BIH... it must be in play if it is a foul to touch an OB while placing the CB with BIH?

But, it isn't in play while you are adjusting it with your cue?
If you are able to adjust the cue ball with any and all parts of the cue stick, while you are down on the shot, why isn't that considered 'in play'?

I have a suggestion...

When a player has BIH, they can only make adjustments with their hand/finger. Any cue stick touching of the cue ball is considered a shot and must meet a legal shot requirement.

Using the hand/finger to make adjustments eliminates all of these arguments. And, isn't that making the game less complicated?

Original question:
Being stupid enough to be placing a cue ball in a corner pocket for what ever reason and then using the cue stick to adjust the position is reason enough for a foul.

Would any one replying to this post use their cue stick to adjust the cueball position, when it is this close to the edge of the corner pocket?

 

[bsmutz]

This is a tough situation that players feel very strongly about. I see arguments quite frequently, usually with one person feeling strongly that the cue shouldn't be used at all for adjusting the cue ball and several others feeling the opposite. As I see the rule applied in actual play, there's no reason why a person couldn't place the ball, get down in their stance and do some practice strokes, get back up, chalk, get down again and stroke, then get back up, move the cue ball somewhere else with their hand or the cue, get down again, etc., etc. Last Wednesday during league play one of our opponents placed the ball on the table, then adjusted it with his cue. It was one of those spots on the table where the cue ball naturally settled into a spot that was like a 1/16" off from ideal position and each time he would tap it with the cue (and he was using the very tip of the cue to nudge it), it would go right back where it was. Eventually, he ended up nudging it forward an inch or so with the tip and a foul was called. He wasn't happy about it, but it was too obvious not to call. In this instance, he didn't hit another ball, it didn't affect anything, it was just his tip caused the cue ball to move forward, so it was a hit and a foul. I felt bad for the guy and felt that someone should have told him to quit nudging the ball with his cue and use his hand. A more savvy player would have realized the situation and used his hand to move the ball up or down the line of the shot to find a place where the cue ball could be placed where it wouldn't rock back into an off line position.
Bottom line is that I think the rule should be changed to disallow moving the cue ball with the cue stick. That would eliminate more than half of the problems. Ideally, a player should leave the cue ball somewhere that clearly leaves it out of play until he has analyzed his options, makes a firm decision about where he wishes to place the ball, and then have one opportunity to position it. As it stands now, clearly making a forward stroke and having the cue tip strike the cue ball has to be the defining moment when the cue ball is in play after receiving BIH.

 

[BillYards]

If you drop the cue ball and it hits an object ball, it is a foul. Why is this so hard to understand? Maybe some people just like to argue about things.

Duh, Jay! Jeezus, I was illustrating another situation that is comparable... If they call a foul on you for dropping the cueball in the pocket, then they are basically saying that you were shooting the ball... now stick with me here...

If they said it was a foul... then I am saying "Fine." then it would not be a foul to shoot one of your balls in with a dropped cueball...

Plus... really for the sake of argument... what logical reason could there be for ruling an 8 on the break as a win? In 9-ball, you basically shoot a one-nine combination with a bunch of other balls in the middle. Whereas pocketing the 8 prematurely in 8-ball is usually a loss.

And... I like the "open table after the break" rule.

What about ball-in-hand for 8-ball? In "the old days", it was in the kitchen on all fouls, right? And didn't slop count? I don't think it was call-pocket.

IMO, the BCA rules rock and elevate 8-ball to a great level.

 

[BillYards]

I think, Jay, that the BCA was trying to remove the elements of luck from the game, and the two things that you mentioned are just the things that introduce luck into eight ball. I don't have a problem with awarding a win for breaking in the eight, but I do have a problem with not having an open table after the break. Group selection based on what fell on the break turns eight ball into a game that is often determined by luck. You can make two solids on the break but the rest are tied up together, while the stripes are sitting free and clear. What's fair about that? Why should the vagaries of chance determine who has the strategic advantage to start the game?

I've played a lot of bar rules and BCA rule eight ball in my life and IMHO, there is no comparison--the BCA rules are far better.

Exactly! Thank you!