What's the secret of the grip
- Thread starter bigskyblue
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I agree -- a "firm" grip (i.e. referring to the contact of the hand to the cue) definitely stifles a natural "flow" and tactile movement of the cue. That's why I'm very carefully pointing out not to make the mistake that just because you see someone's "fist wrapped around the cue" (i.e. or e.g. Buddy Hall and Thorsten Hohmann) that it's necessarily a firm grip. It's most certainly not.
And also, don't make the mistake that if you don't see the hand fluidly opening and closing, that the grip must therefore be "firm." Again, it most certainly needn't be the case.
In fact, I would caution new players not to get into the mode of "opening and closing the hand" during the stroke just because you see it advocated in videos, etc. One of the most deadly things to do in one's stroke are what I call the "grabby grabbies" -- where the intentional physical act of closing the hand induces yaw in the cue delivery. When you look at the physical architecture of the human hand, you can see that it is an asymmetrical device, and in this regard, closes in one physical direction advocated by the fingers. This one-directional closure pulls the cue to one side, unbeknownst to the player, but readily visible to someone behind watching down the line of the cue delivery. Additionally, besides the yaw induced in the cue delivery, the dreaded "grabby grabbies" also induce snatching in the stroke, as well as poking, lassoing, etc. The trick to the whole opening/closing the hand issue, is that it has to be natural, and advocated by the forward motion of the cue, not by the hand's opening/closing forcing the cue backward/foward. The cue leads; the hand follows. Not vice-versa. That's why I'm not a fan of the opening/closing hand delivery, even though I come from a snooker background. It's far too easy to fall prey to the "grabby grabbies," especially when under duress / in a stressful game situation.
Thanks for the video and the opportunity to clarify/add,
-Sean
This will force realizations that you won't get any other way.
Yes because of the weight of the balls and cue there's certainly a difference in the snooker and pool strokes. In pool you have to "muscle the ball" around at times and this requires the ability to generate considerable power and acceleration.
Everyone will hold their cue a different tension according to many factors and I think personality is one that isn't talked about (it's much like holding a fork or spoon different ways, with different tensions). Earl Stickland describes his pressure as a "death grip" and I'm firm, but not tight for most shots. One thing that Buddy, Earl and I all agree on is we DO hold the cue extremely firm at times (and loose sometimes as well), and I believe even if you have a naturally loose grip you should be able to hold it tight too. Playing the game with one grip pressure is limiting and would discourage this habit.
One thing I would suggest to everyone that wants to improve and doesn't mind experimenting is to take some practice time and do the OPPOSITE of what's "natural". If you hold the cue naturally firm then hold it loose (I will practice this way at times), and if you naturally hole it loose practice holding it firm for 20-30 minutes. (I show several of these drills in my video 'Billiards Inside Secrets')
This will force realizations that you won't get any other way. I practice standing very close to the cue ball AND I practice standing further away than usual, Doing the opposite of what we naturally want to do expands out experience and is the key that will unlock many stubborn doors in our stoke, our technique and our overall game.
'The Game is the Teacher'.com
Yes because of the weight of the balls and cue there's certainly a difference in the snooker and pool strokes. In pool you have to "muscle the ball" around at times and this requires the ability to generate considerable power and acceleration.
Everyone will hold their cue a different tension according to many factors and I think personality is one that isn't talked about (it's much like holding a fork or spoon different ways, with different tensions). Earl Stickland describes his pressure as a "death grip" and I'm firm, but not tight for most shots. One thing that Buddy, Earl and I all agree on is we DO hold the cue extremely firm at times (and loose sometimes as well), and I believe even if you have a naturally loose grip you should be able to hold it tight too. Playing the game with one grip pressure is limiting and would discourage this habit.
One thing I would suggest to everyone that wants to improve and doesn't mind experimenting is to take some practice time and do the OPPOSITE of what's "natural". If you hold the cue naturally firm then hold it loose (I will practice this way at times), and if you naturally hole it loose practice holding it firm for 20-30 minutes. (I show several of these drills in my video 'Billiards Inside Secrets')
This will force realizations that you won't get any other way. I practice standing very close to the cue ball AND I practice standing further away than usual, Doing the opposite of what we naturally want to do expands out experience and is the key that will unlock many stubborn doors in our stoke, our technique and our overall game.
'The Game is the Teacher'.com
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It seems to me that as grip pressure impacts the acceleration of the tip through the cue ball (a firmer grip deadens the action a bit unless you compensate through a wrist snap), then perhaps you can use varying pressure to help fine tune your touch. I was watching the Donny Mills vs. Max Eberle stream on USTREAM earlier today and it struck me that these two players had totally different types of touch. You could see it when they shot the same basic shot with the same basic English (as evident by the CB track), but the differential between the energy the OB entered the pocket and the energy the CB left the collision were very different between the two players. Donny seemed to need to work the CB harder, Max's CB seemed to move with the same energy as the OB. It was just smoother; I gotta believe grip pressure (before, during and/or after) may have had a lot to do with that. Just how, I'm not sure. Both players seemed to have loose grips (from what I could see), but there must have been a transition in somebody's grip during the stroke (or lack of transition) that accounted for the differences between their respective "touch". Plus Donny was pretty much on full tilt, so not a totally fair sample...
I'm not sure yet which player's grip was firmer (if at all) but something was different between the two.
"Pinning" the CB is part of this, but I've always noticed that some players just have a more beautiful CB, with everything in total control and some players have to work a lot harder to get the same result; and the difference between the two is very evident. Maybe a thicker hit requires a lighter grip and a thinner hit needs a firmer grip? Or vice-versa?
I'm not sure yet which player's grip was firmer (if at all) but something was different between the two."Pinning" the CB is part of this, but I've always noticed that some players just have a more beautiful CB, with everything in total control and some players have to work a lot harder to get the same result; and the difference between the two is very evident. Maybe a thicker hit requires a lighter grip and a thinner hit needs a firmer grip? Or vice-versa?
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"The player with the most flexibility in their stroke will have the most control
Yes, I think the grip is just part of the personality of the player. It's like eating with a fork, we all are trying to accomplish the same thing we just do it in different ways, and styles. There's "give and take" in all styles and that's probably how your game develops.
I strive to control the top of my cue more than any other part, because I'm "Pinning" the cue ball with the top of my tip targeting the cue ball below center most of the time.
Buddy Hall told me one time "you gotta play the game with the top of your tip" and he was right {for me anyway}, and this develops the style of "Pinning Shots" and you can hear when a player does it, the sound is different and more "penetrating". Players like myself that do this hit the cue ball firmer than normal, this prevents balls from "rolling off" and also prevents skids on dirty equipment.
I do think it's good to practice with different grip tensions to develop your hand's touch and feel for shots that may not be in your current "tool box". I also advice holding the cue up at the front of the wrap, and also all the way at the back of the cue for the same reasons. "The player with the most flexibility in their stroke will have the most control over every situation"
It seems to me that as grip pressure impacts the acceleration of the tip through the cue ball (a firmer grip deadens the action a bit unless you compensate through a wrist snap), then perhaps you can use varying pressure to help fine tune your touch. I was watching the Donny Mills vs. Max Eberle stream on USTREAM earlier today and it struck me that these two players had totally different types of touch. You could see it when they shot the same basic shot with the same basic English (as evident by the CB track), but the differential between the energy the OB entered the pocket and the energy the CB left the collision were very different between the two players. Donny seemed to need to work the CB harder, Max's CB seemed to move with the same energy as the OB. It was just smoother; I gotta believe grip pressure (before, during and/or after) may have had a lot to do with that. Just how, I'm not sure. Both players seemed to have loose grips (from what I could see), but there must have been a transition in somebody's grip during the stroke (or lack of transition) that accounted for the differences between their respective "touch". Plus Donny was pretty much on full tilt, so not a totally fair sample...
"Pinning" the CB is part of this, but I've always noticed that some players just have a more beautiful CB, with everything in total control and some players have to work a lot harder to get the same result; and the difference between the two is very evident. Maybe a thicker hit requires a lighter grip and a thinner hit needs a firmer grip? Or vice-versa?
Yes, I think the grip is just part of the personality of the player. It's like eating with a fork, we all are trying to accomplish the same thing we just do it in different ways, and styles. There's "give and take" in all styles and that's probably how your game develops.
I strive to control the top of my cue more than any other part, because I'm "Pinning" the cue ball with the top of my tip targeting the cue ball below center most of the time.
Buddy Hall told me one time "you gotta play the game with the top of your tip" and he was right {for me anyway}, and this develops the style of "Pinning Shots" and you can hear when a player does it, the sound is different and more "penetrating". Players like myself that do this hit the cue ball firmer than normal, this prevents balls from "rolling off" and also prevents skids on dirty equipment.
I do think it's good to practice with different grip tensions to develop your hand's touch and feel for shots that may not be in your current "tool box". I also advice holding the cue up at the front of the wrap, and also all the way at the back of the cue for the same reasons. "The player with the most flexibility in their stroke will have the most control over every situation"
it can have a critical positive OR negative role in your pool stroke.
It may sound strange to some, but I feel the cue ball in my hand much more than the cue....my feel for the cue ball is in my hand, not my feel for the cue stick. I'm not talking in a literal sense, I'm talking in terms of sensitivity, which is closely linked to creativity in pool. There are many different ways to hold the pool cue and I'd guess only .001% of the players hold it in the best way possible.
I believe it would be virtually impossible for someone to just "stumble" on the ideal pool grip. I know it took me years and I'm still refining it, as is many other champion level players. "The Grip is a journey, not a destination," and it can have a critical positive OR negative role in your pool stroke.
'The Game is the Teacher'
Wouldn't that be a foul
It may sound strange to some, but I feel the cue ball in my hand much more than the cue....my feel for the cue ball is in my hand, not my feel for the cue stick. I'm not talking in a literal sense, I'm talking in terms of sensitivity, which is closely linked to creativity in pool. There are many different ways to hold the pool cue and I'd guess only .001% of the players hold it in the best way possible.
I believe it would be virtually impossible for someone to just "stumble" on the ideal pool grip. I know it took me years and I'm still refining it, as is many other champion level players. "The Grip is a journey, not a destination," and it can have a critical positive OR negative role in your pool stroke.
'The Game is the Teacher'
CJ,
What was that Corey and Hunter showed you after your match? Can you share the insights with us?
What was that Corey and Hunter showed you after your match? Can you share the insights with us?
"the difference that makes the difference" in winning and losing
The main thing was my arm/forearm/wrist alignment and how it was connected to my visual positioning. I had gained weight and my grip had to accommodate the altered body position - it was slightly off to the left of "center". (Hunter said I needed to get into a more "Medieval" position, and he was right on target making a very advanced observation.
This hand position caused my cue to come through inside the "shot line" with my forearm and my shoulder was compensating. This required a change in position and I couldn't see it's root cause immediately - in video I could see my shoulder moving inappropriately, but had trouble identifying what was effecting my "slot/groove" of my visual set-up.
In other words "I wasn't seeing what I was hitting, and wasn't hitting what I was seeing"......this leads to a micro chain of effects that serve to compensate, and that kept the shot from "locking in". Without this connection it's not possible to have true confidence.....the is "the difference that makes the difference" in winning and losing. 'The Game is the Teacher'
The main thing was my arm/forearm/wrist alignment and how it was connected to my visual positioning. I had gained weight and my grip had to accommodate the altered body position - it was slightly off to the left of "center". (Hunter said I needed to get into a more "Medieval" position, and he was right on target making a very advanced observation.
This hand position caused my cue to come through inside the "shot line" with my forearm and my shoulder was compensating. This required a change in position and I couldn't see it's root cause immediately - in video I could see my shoulder moving inappropriately, but had trouble identifying what was effecting my "slot/groove" of my visual set-up.
In other words "I wasn't seeing what I was hitting, and wasn't hitting what I was seeing"......this leads to a micro chain of effects that serve to compensate, and that kept the shot from "locking in". Without this connection it's not possible to have true confidence.....the is "the difference that makes the difference" in winning and losing. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Hunter is the bomb! Have worked with him 3 times now, and look forward to the next.
I struggle with this same thing. Having played tennis and golf (and bowling) at a high level, that hand/eye connection is very important. I play pool very well when my grip feels good and everything feels like it's "in the slot". When it doesn't feel that way, which is a lot of the time these days, I still play well, can win matches in tournaments, etc., but it's not the same, and I find myself making dumb execution mistakes.
When everything feels aligned, I feel it frees my mind to focus on other things, so not only do I not miss makeable balls because of stroke or confidence issues but I also think and plan better since I have more attention on that. Just like with golf, I play better overall when I'm hitting the ball well since I can forget about that and focus on strategy, course management, etc.
One of these days I'll nail down some more checkpoints on my grip and figure out how to get that feeling more often. Hunter and I worked on different things that last few times, and somewhat on the grip, but I'm at the point where that continues to be a game changer for me, so more attention on this in the future for sure.
Scott
I struggle with this same thing. Having played tennis and golf (and bowling) at a high level, that hand/eye connection is very important. I play pool very well when my grip feels good and everything feels like it's "in the slot". When it doesn't feel that way, which is a lot of the time these days, I still play well, can win matches in tournaments, etc., but it's not the same, and I find myself making dumb execution mistakes.
When everything feels aligned, I feel it frees my mind to focus on other things, so not only do I not miss makeable balls because of stroke or confidence issues but I also think and plan better since I have more attention on that. Just like with golf, I play better overall when I'm hitting the ball well since I can forget about that and focus on strategy, course management, etc.
One of these days I'll nail down some more checkpoints on my grip and figure out how to get that feeling more often. Hunter and I worked on different things that last few times, and somewhat on the grip, but I'm at the point where that continues to be a game changer for me, so more attention on this in the future for sure.
Scott
less words on the cause and more on the cure please. <medieval covers about 10 centuries>
i need to correct a similar alignment issue.
The stroke of the samurai
You may want to experiment with controlling different sides of the cue with your hand. Try putting pressure and feeling control on the left and right sides of the cue, THEN when you get in position change the grip pressure to the up and down sides of the cue.
This will give you a sensation that you may not have had in the past. Then, do what I suggested, the other way around, switching as directed, "just for the sake of science".
A lot of finding the perfect grip is experimentation, and I"d also advice hammering some nails and notice the grip you use and the wrist motion you are using....try to incorporate this into your pool stroke/grip.
There are other ways to do this with a sword, and other hand strengthening exercises that I use and teach to create a more powerful stroke.....THE STROKE OF THE SAMURAI.....'The Game is the Teacher'
You may want to experiment with controlling different sides of the cue with your hand. Try putting pressure and feeling control on the left and right sides of the cue, THEN when you get in position change the grip pressure to the up and down sides of the cue.
This will give you a sensation that you may not have had in the past. Then, do what I suggested, the other way around, switching as directed, "just for the sake of science".
A lot of finding the perfect grip is experimentation, and I"d also advice hammering some nails and notice the grip you use and the wrist motion you are using....try to incorporate this into your pool stroke/grip.
There are other ways to do this with a sword, and other hand strengthening exercises that I use and teach to create a more powerful stroke.....THE STROKE OF THE SAMURAI.....'The Game is the Teacher'
Until you just mentioned this, I never really thought about using my hammer grip as a cue grip. I tried many different grips, but never thought about it. I assumed they were the same. I did try the hammer motion and the idea of using the sword from my MA training.
I grabbed a hammer and compared it to my pool grip. The hammer grip after many years of swinging one at a "pro" level, was different. The hammer is out of my palm and sitting in my fingers. This is similar to what you said the grip should do and what I was trying to integrate into my game. I was doing it all along, but didn't make the connection.
I'll try my hammer grip with a pool cue, but I wonder how accurate my cue grip would be for hammering nails? Probably not too good. This might reinforce getting rid of it. :wink:
Best,
Mike
Hi Mike,
When I tried CJ's tennis/hammer grip/action a while back I had trouble & could not get the cue into the slot/channel. It was not good...but I believed. I kept toying with it & figured out that by turning my hand a bit clockwise it fell into place, the slot/channel.
However it is very different than mine, so I put it aside & forgot about it. Now, that I have been using the TOI method so much, my grip has 'gravitated' more toward the tennis/hammer.
This seems like Deja Vu. Did we discuss this already? Oh well. If we did, maybe it will help some one else.
All the Best,
Rick
Hey Mike,
I have been using the Hammer Grip since CJ first introduced it back in November (I think)
I have a small tack hammer that I exercise with daily.
You are going to have to take it slow. The thumb will be pointed straight down by rotating the wrist. This puts the cue butt inline with your front arm bone.
When you pull the cue back, from QB address, the cue will leave the palm and be resting on your fingers. The reason why you will practice the forward push of the cue is to allow all of your fingers to feel the cue, one by one. When the cue finally makes contact with the QB you will feel a slight pressure on the part of the hand (back) that is inline with the little finger. This, for me, has allowed me to really feel the cue ball. I forgot the name of that part of the hand.
The opening and closing of the hand is very small on most shots. Think of it this way, the thumb and index finger are the steering wheel and the fingers are the engine (from Lee Brett).
CJ also compares the action of the grip/stoke to using a casting rod when fishing.
When holding the cue I use the inside of my thumb to line the cue up with the shot line. This worked for me, others may want to use the "V" that is formed on the hand when holding the cue. I can't feel the "V" so I use the inside of my thumb.
The most important thing to remember, until it happens automatically, is to keep the thumb pointed straight down. :wink:
Have fun man.
John
We probably discussed it a while back. There's been a lot of info on this the past year.
I turned my hand counter clockwise bringing my wrist towards my hip. It seemed to lock in place like your slot analogy. Now I'll try my hammer grip and see what happens.
Best,
Mike
Hey Mike,
I have been using the Hammer Grip since CJ first introduced it back in November (I think)
I have a small tack hammer that I exercise with daily.
You are going to have to take it slow. The thumb will be pointed straight down by rotating the wrist. This puts the cue butt inline with your front arm bone.
When you pull the cue back, from QB address, the cue will leave the palm and be resting on your fingers. The reason why you will practice the forward push of the cue is to allow all of your fingers to feel the cue, one by one. When the cue finally makes contact with the QB you will feel a slight pressure on the part of the hand (back) that is inline with the little finger. This, for me, has allowed me to really feel the cue ball. I forgot the name of that part of the hand.
The opening and closing of the hand is very small on most shots. Think of it this way, the thumb and index finger are the steering wheel and the fingers are the engine (from Lee Brett).
CJ also compares the action of the grip/stoke to using a casting rod when fishing.
When holding the cue I use the inside of my thumb to line the cue up with the shot line. This worked for me, others may want to use the "V" that is formed on the hand when holding the cue. I can't feel the "V" so I use the inside of my thumb.
The most important thing to remember, until it happens automatically, is to keep the thumb pointed straight down. :wink:
Have fun man.
John
Being no stranger to a hammer, I understood the motion when CJ first talked about it. I applied it to my present stroke to try to get it to work for me.
My thumb did point down and the cue moved out of my palm. But this was only close to my hammer grip. I never looked at the grip differences which are fairly subtle.
The biggest change for me is that rather than cocking my wrist in towards my hip to point my thumb to the floor, I turn my wrist over like a tennis grip. Since I've rarely played tennis, it's weird to see my hand in this position. It really keeps my stroke on a straight line, so I'll run with it.
This small change feels comfortable, but it in a bad way...somehow it feels like I'm still at work! :grin-square:
Best,
Mike
Yeah, instead of the wrist breaking downward to drive a nail, the wrist is breaking forward.
I use to be a baseball bat gripper. So I can understand how weird this new grip may feel.
Think of the contact on the OB as the nail. Maybe that may help.
Anyway, any kind of ball game is an adventure.
John
I use to be a baseball bat gripper. So I can understand how weird this new grip may feel.
Think of the contact on the OB as the nail. Maybe that may help.
Anyway, any kind of ball game is an adventure.
John