What's your cue's Pivot Point?

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I got my new cue today. About 19oz, 13mm tip, stiff maple shaft with Taiwan LePro tip, provided by my cue sponsor Jian Ying Cues.

First thing I wanted to check was the tip and feel on a few power low draw and extreme side english. I was very happy with the solid feel and the rip I could get on the CB with minimal vibration. A nice solid hit. Very happy considering the tip was only half shaped.

The next thing I wanted to check was the pivot point length, as I'm getting quite interested in coverting most of my side english shots to BHE.

The test I use to determine this is to aim at a block of chalk at the center of foot end rail of the table from the head spot.

I line up center ball to hit the center of the chalk. I start with bridge at about 4" from CB and turn the cue to the left about 1.5 tip widths. I hit it firm enough, and around middle ball height so that swerve won't come into play. I note that it misses just about 1/2" left of the original aim.

I move the bridge back to about 14 inches and do the same and miss about 1/2" to the right.

I go back and forth several times and it soon become clear my Pivot Point (where the CB hits my original aim) is around 7-8".

I would prefer this to be around 10", which would mean less deflection, so I'm thinking of sanding the cue down to about 12.7mm. 10" is from where the cue touches my thumb with my open bridge, so the CB is just 6" in front of my finger tips. I feel this length bridge is better for judging speed of shot and developing more power when wanted.

So, any feedback is appreciated, but I'd particularly like to know where other people's pivot points are at and what their preference is.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I got my new cue today. About 19oz, 13mm tip, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The next thing I wanted to check was the pivot point length, as I'm getting quite interested in coverting most of my side english shots to BHE.

The test I use to determine this is to aim at a block of chalk at the center of foot end rail of the table from the head spot.

I line up center ball to hit the center of the chalk. I start with bridge at about 4" from CB and turn the cue to the left about 1.5 tip widths. I hit it firm enough, and around middle ball height so that swerve won't come into play. I note that it misses just about 1/2" left of the original aim.

I move the bridge back to about 14 inches and do the same and miss about 1/2" to the right.

I,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So, any feedback is appreciated, but I'd particularly like to know where other people's pivot points are at and what their preference is.

unless you know what you're doing and know how to sand down shafts,,,you shouldn't.

i'm a bit confused. if i'm reading correctly, by changing your bridge while aiming center to the chalk, you were able to make the cb deflect from left of the chalk over to the right(in other words, deflect in a totally different direction)? how is this possible if you're still addressing the cb on the same side?
 
bruin70 said:
unless you know what you're doing and know how to sand down shafts,,,you shouldn't.

i'm a bit confused. if i'm reading correctly, by changing your bridge while aiming center to the chalk, you were able to make the cb deflect from left of the chalk over to the right(in other words, deflect in a totally different direction)? how is this possible if you're still addressing the cb on the same side?
Well that's the magic of the pivot point.

When the bridge is closer, the angle of the cue changes more, let's say 3 degrees, while squirt is 2 degrees, hence net 1 degree to the left of original center ball aim.

When the bridge is further, the angle of the cue changes less (say 1 degree) while squirt in the other direction is still 2 degrees for the same off center hit. So the CB travels to the other side.

At the pivot point, the angle change of the cue is the same as the squirt angle.

Hence, lower squirt cues have a pivot point further back such that the angle of cue change is smaller to equal out the smaller squirt angle.

[edit] - Oh, I just read your original post again, so just to clarify. On all shots I address (line up to) the center of the CB and then pivot the back hand, keeping the bridge in the same position.
 
Last edited:
bruin70 said:
i'm a bit confused. if i'm reading correctly, by changing your bridge while aiming center to the chalk, you were able to make the cb deflect from left of the chalk over to the right(in other words, deflect in a totally different direction)? how is this possible if you're still addressing the cb on the same side?


See "Squirt Measurements" on page 10 half way down...
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf
 
Billy_Bob said:
See "Squirt Measurements" on page 10 half way down...
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

Thanks for the link Billy_Bob!

I'm not sure about their opinion that high squirt cues have a pivot point at 10 inches and low squirt cues 20 to 40 inches.

As I said, mine is 7-8 " by my testing method and I've played with a lot of cues that squirt much more.

Anyway, here is a good diagram from that paper to demonstrate what I was explaining earlier.
 

Attachments

  • Pivot Point.JPG
    Pivot Point.JPG
    34 KB · Views: 988
Colin Colenso said:
...I'm not sure about their opinion that high squirt cues have a pivot point at 10 inches and low squirt cues 20 to 40 inches...

Yes, my cue with a Predator shaft and dime shaped tip has the pivot point way back where I grip it on the butt. (And my non-predator cues which are my "house cues" for my pool table have the pivot points around 10 or 11 inches back from the tip.)

So I keep my back hand where it is at, then move my front hand left/right to apply english (Using my Predator cue.)
 
Colin Colenso said:
[...]

The next thing I wanted to check was the pivot point length, as I'm getting quite interested in coverting most of my side english shots to BHE.

The test I use to determine this is to aim at a block of chalk at the center of foot end rail of the table from the head spot.
[...]

So, any feedback is appreciated, but I'd particularly like to know where other people's pivot points are at and what their preference is.

Here are the pivot points of severa of my cues:

Patrick -- 15
Sherm - 15
Pechauer - 19
Sledgehammer - 19
Layani - 23
Schon - 24
Schuler - 30
P314 on schon - >>30

My son has my Scruggs SP right now, but I think it is pretty squirty, about like the patrick and the Sherm. I also have two Diviney cues and two Joseys that are coming soon -- not yet measured.

I think if your pivot point is really as short as you say, then that's too short. It's not just a matter of a convenient bridge length for pivoting. For many shots you need to compensate for squirt *and* swerve, and aim & pivot about a convenient bridge length won't work. In those cases you're looking at a big and not-easy-to-estimate-accurately compensation.

I recommend against going to a thinner taper for the purpose of getting less squirt. You can't reduce the squirt very much that way. I took one Schuler shaft from 12.8 mm all the way down to 12.0 mm. The pivot point changed maybe from 26 to 29 inches. The actual mass in the front of the shaft goes as r**2. So bring a shaft from 13.0 mm to 12.5 mm, a pretty big change, reduced the mass near the end to 92% of what it was. That suggests a 10-inch pivot point might increase to 11 inches--not worth it, imo. Play with the shaft diameter that feels best to you.

I think you should try Bob Jewett's squirt test that's in the RSB FAQ. I think it's also at sfbilliards.com. I think it's better than the table length test you describe.

If the pp really is what you've reported, then I think you should get rid of the shaft in a hurry.

mike page
fargo
 
chefjeff said:
Welcome back to the fantasy world of pool, BB....Are you going to be playing in the Drivermaker Holiday Tourney, here on-line?


No... Since I've not been playing much at all and not practicing any during the summer (doing lots of projects around the house), I've been playing 8-ball by exclusively using defensive shots. Basically working on my defensive game.

My shot making has gone to the pits by not playing/practicing...

But I am still winning games! And I do this by leaving my opponent without a shot each time every time.

But basically I'm working on defense only at this point, and this is something new to me. I'm seeing how far I can go playing pure defense and a delayed offense until the conditions are to my liking. So I may wait until my opponent has most of his balls in before I start pocketing any of mine. And then at that point it is quite easy for me to leave the cue ball in a spot where my opponent has no shot (should I not pocket my ball - numerous shot-safeties).
 
Billy_Bob said:
No... Since I've not been playing much at all and not practicing any during the summer (doing lots of projects around the house), I've been playing 8-ball by exclusively using defensive shots. Basically working on my defensive game.

My shot making has gone to the pits by not playing/practicing...

But I am still winning games! And I do this by leaving my opponent without a shot each time every time.

But basically I'm working on defense only at this point, and this is something new to me. I'm seeing how far I can go playing pure defense and a delayed offense until the conditions are to my liking. So I may wait until my opponent has most of his balls in before I start pocketing any of mine. And then at that point it is quite easy for me to leave the cue ball in a spot where my opponent has no shot (should I not pocket my ball - numerous shot-safeties).

BBob,
Kudos on a VERY CREATIVE excuse for not participating. You are cracking me up - "working on my defense" ha, ha, ha. ChefJeff and I have heard lots of inspired excuses in the 2 years we've had this tournament; but yours is DEFINITELY one of the best so far. It is NOT, however an acceptable excuse - please see the "Official Call Out from the Director" thread on the Drivermaker Memorial Tournament sub-forum for a complete list of acceptable excuses. You are definitely the front runner for the "Creative Excuse Booby Prize and Free Cojone Transplant". Regards.
 
Williebetmore said:
BBob,
Kudos on a VERY CREATIVE excuse for not participating. You are cracking me up - "working on my defense" ha, ha, ha. ChefJeff and I have heard lots of inspired excuses in the 2 years we've had this tournament; but yours is DEFINITELY one of the best so far. It is NOT, however an acceptable excuse - please see the "Official Call Out from the Director" thread on the Drivermaker Memorial Tournament sub-forum for a complete list of acceptable excuses. You are definitely the front runner for the "Creative Excuse Booby Prize and Free Cojone Transplant". Regards.

Well geeze! I've not practiced for 5 months! (Other things have priority over pool sometimes.) I've not even had time to read the pool forums.

I've not played in any money tournaments all summer (which I dearly love!). When I begin playing these again, I'm sure I will embarrass myself until I get back into the swing of things. I expect to go two and out quite a bit for awhile.

Also I am kinda weird about doing one thing at a time. I will only eat one thing on my plate, then when that is gone, go on to the next thing.

And I do this with pool. For a while I will work on draw shots. Then maybe follow shots. Or whatever.

And this is good because I learn the high and low percentage shots. Learning what will probably not work is just as good as learning what usually will work.

The thing of the moment for me is defensive play and I would like to explore this to its full potential.

It really would distract me to suddenly switch to working on running a series of balls from the get go.

I guess I get fascinated with one thing, then want to really work on that one thing, and see what all I can do with it - what are all the possibilities.

And I guess I keep a "mental record" of what I have tried and not tried. So I think doing something else at this point would cause a mish-mash record in my brain as opposed to a clear picture of what works and what does not with defensive play.
 
Williebetmore said:
BBob,
Kudos on a VERY CREATIVE excuse for not participating. You are cracking me up - "working on my defense" ha, ha, ha. ChefJeff and I have heard lots of inspired excuses in the 2 years we've had this tournament; but yours is DEFINITELY one of the best so far. It is NOT, however an acceptable excuse - please see the "Official Call Out from the Director" thread on the Drivermaker Memorial Tournament sub-forum for a complete list of acceptable excuses. You are definitely the front runner for the "Creative Excuse Booby Prize and Free Cojone Transplant". Regards.

Ha Ha Ha, well said Willie that one takes the cake. If he's playing 8 ball he's playing a lot more than me, hell anyone here plays more than me. I'm jus gonna play for an hour to warm up then let'er rip. LOL

Besides you can learn defense anytime, especially when you make a mistake.:D Just winning games because you can duck and hide on a weak player doesn't mean didley in the real world! Com'on BB and play, otherwise your the front runner on that bobby prize, way in front. LOL

Rod
 
Billy_Bob said:
Well geeze! I've not practiced for 5 months! (Other things have priority over pool sometimes.) I've not even had time to read the pool forums.

I've not played in any money tournaments all summer (which I dearly love!). When I begin playing these again, I'm sure I will embarrass myself until I get back into the swing of things. I expect to go two and out quite a bit for awhile.

Also I am kinda weird about doing one thing at a time. I will only eat one thing on my plate, then when that is gone, go on to the next thing.

And I do this with pool. For a while I will work on draw shots. Then maybe follow shots. Or whatever.

And this is good because I learn the high and low percentage shots. Learning what will probably not work is just as good as learning what usually will work.

The thing of the moment for me is defensive play and I would like to explore this to its full potential.

It really would distract me to suddenly switch to working on running a series of balls from the get go.

I guess I get fascinated with one thing, then want to really work on that one thing, and see what all I can do with it - what are all the possibilities.

And I guess I keep a "mental record" of what I have tried and not tried. So I think doing something else at this point would cause a mish-mash record in my brain as opposed to a clear picture of what works and what does not with defensive play.

BBob,
You understand we are just kidding. Sort of. Good luck with your practicing, but please consider a little self-assessment to go along with it.
 
mikepage said:
Here are the pivot points of severa of my cues:

Patrick -- 15
Sherm - 15
Pechauer - 19
Sledgehammer - 19
Layani - 23
Schon - 24
Schuler - 30
P314 on schon - >>30

My son has my Scruggs SP right now, but I think it is pretty squirty, about like the patrick and the Sherm. I also have two Diviney cues and two Joseys that are coming soon -- not yet measured.

I think if your pivot point is really as short as you say, then that's too short. It's not just a matter of a convenient bridge length for pivoting. For many shots you need to compensate for squirt *and* swerve, and aim & pivot about a convenient bridge length won't work. In those cases you're looking at a big and not-easy-to-estimate-accurately compensation.

I recommend against going to a thinner taper for the purpose of getting less squirt. You can't reduce the squirt very much that way. I took one Schuler shaft from 12.8 mm all the way down to 12.0 mm. The pivot point changed maybe from 26 to 29 inches. The actual mass in the front of the shaft goes as r**2. So bring a shaft from 13.0 mm to 12.5 mm, a pretty big change, reduced the mass near the end to 92% of what it was. That suggests a 10-inch pivot point might increase to 11 inches--not worth it, imo. Play with the shaft diameter that feels best to you.

I think you should try Bob Jewett's squirt test that's in the RSB FAQ. I think it's also at sfbilliards.com. I think it's better than the table length test you describe.

If the pp really is what you've reported, then I think you should get rid of the shaft in a hurry.

mike page
fargo


Hi Mike ,

How are you measuring the pivot points on your cues?Go to the link below and it shows that a peachauer is listed with a 9.1" pivot point and a Schon with a 8.9" pivot point.There are many cues listed at the webisite and the range is between 7.6" and 12.8".

Your cues fall in between the range of 15" to 30"???Perhaps you are talking about balance point and not pivot point?I'm not 100% sure, however, I believe the pivot point is how far you place you bridge hand from the cue ball.

RJ

ps. The balance point of my Layani is 21.5 " from the butt inward which is somewhat simuliar to the 23" you mentioned for your layani. I think you've been calculating balance points.
Go here for pivot point numbers of various cues:
http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php
 
Last edited:
mikepage said:
Ya know, those guys seem careful and knowledgable and thoughtful, but something is fishy with those numbers, imo. I don't understand what the disconnect is, but I'm confident there's some kind of disconnect here.

Yes the Platinum numbers do not jive with the testing methods I am familiar with.

Also the shape of a tip (nickel, dime) may or change the pivot point, so best to do your own testing.
 
recoveryjones said:
Hi Mike ,

How are you measuring the pivot points on your cues?Go to the link below and it shows that a peachauer is listed with a 9.1" pivot point and a Schon with a 8.9" pivot point.There are many cues listed at the webisite and the range is between 7.6" and 12.8".

Your cues fall in between the range of 15" to 30"???Perhaps you are talking about balance point and not pivot point?I'm not 1005 sure, however, I believe the pivot point is how far you place you bridge hand from the cue ball.
[...]

I'm talking about the pivot point, not the balance point. I've never seen a cue with a pivot point below about 11 inches except for the cue for which I drilled out the first few inches and inserted a steel core. That cue has a pivot point around 7 inches, and it is basically unplayable, It's the cue equivalent of the trick cueball.

For my predator 314 shaft, pivoting about my grip hand rather than my bridge hand does a pretty good job compensating for squirt. I guess that would be FHE as opposed to BHE. My predator 314 pivot point is forty something inches.

mike page
fargo

mike page
fargo
 
I've continued the discussion of my playing in the tournament to the thread...

"I've changed my mind (sort of)..."
 
Back
Top