What's your shot here?

[renard]

Game: 8-ball

Situation: My brother is shooting solids. His opponent only needs to make 4 balls to tie and 5 ballls to win (VNEA league rules.) My brother was shooting solids and clipped another ball on his breakout attempt on the 7 ball. (He made 2 breakouts in a row in a very clustered layout.)

He was looking this shot over when a very good pool player on another team whispered a comment to me on how to play this shot.

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[kyle]

Is there enough room to shoot the 7 into the rail and off the 13 into the top right corner.

 

[renard]

Is there enough room to shoot the 7 into the rail and off the 13 into the top right corner.

No there is not.

 

[sjm]

Unless there's a shot here on the seven that I don't see, you've lost unless opponent messes up a pretty easy layout. No tie up shot would have any value here when opponent has enough blockers to open up anything you tie up safely while snookering you. I'd open up the clustered seven ball so that if my opponent, somehow, failed to get out, I'd have a shot to win.

From my vantage point, you are in very big trouble here.

 

[Rickw]

I think I'd forget about shooting at the 7 and try to put a couple of the stripes together to form a small cluster. If you hit the 7 at all, you'll probably free up the 13 and then it is over.

 

[Rude Dog]

Rail first, thin the 7, down to the end rail and back up to freeze on the 10. Sure, no problem.

 

[sjm]

I think I'd forget about shooting at the 7 and try to put a couple of the stripes together to form a small cluster. If you hit the 7 at all, you'll probably free up the 13 and then it is over.

There is no cluster you can create that opponent can't beak out with a safety while leaving you nothing on the seven. In addition, the fact that the seven is clustered is meaningless. If you play a tie up, they can play the shot below (a very soft safety that brings the thirteen into play and makes htting the seven extremely difficult) immediately, or later in the rack if they prefer, and you're in the same boat as if you had freed the seven in the first place. Until that seven is freed up, though, if opponent happens to miss a shot, you still don't win.

 

[The Piper]

Depending on the exact layout, I would try to go into the rail to carom off the thirteen and into the corner pocket.

 

[renard]

Unless there's a shot here on the seven that I don't see, you've lost unless opponent messes up a pretty easy layout. No tie up shot would have any value here when opponent has enough blockers to open up anything you tie up safely while snookering you. I'd open up the clustered seven ball so that if my opponent, somehow, failed to get out, I'd have a shot to win.

From my vantage point, you are in very big trouble here.

At the time I would have been in total agreement with you.

As my brother was conptemplating his options, I was whispering with a very good player on the opposing team on what to do.

He whispered that an old timer had shown him this exact shot and how to make it and get position on the 8-ball.

After he described it to me, the light bulb went on! I prayed that my brother would see it as well. Needless to say we lost the match.

There was much talk from everyone on how everything should have been done. I had my brother (and his opponent) set up the shot exactly the way it was laying.

This very good shooter (Luke) said before he shot the ball, "George Rood was the old timer that taught me this shot. He called it a pinch shot. And then he slammed it home."

For those of you who haven't heard of George Rood:
http://www.professorqball.com/displaystory.php?RecordID=112

January 10 started right on schedule with Jeanette Lee playing Bob Letherby. Lee fought a determined match, but fell short of the victory, with Letherby winning 25 to 18. On table number two George Rood, a young 91 years of age, from Dayton, OH was warming up in preparation for a match against Ed Friedman from Louisville, KY. Rood performed superbly, but Friedman got hot and tallied a final score of 25 to 16. Later in the day Jeanette Lee demonstrated her love and skill for 3-Cushion Billiards by winning her match against Gary Eake from Oshkosh, WI 25 to 21. Jeanette’s win placed her in one of the top two positions for the final matches to be played on the next day. Bob Letherby, with a perfect win loss record so far, will join Jeanette in their quest for victory.

Any way this is how he shot it:

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%Vf8D0%Wf1D3%XV1G1%Yr5Z0%Zh8C3%[V5E7%\a3C3%]r8J8%^i8E0
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The seven ball caroms off the 13 ball and was at the perfect bank angle to pocket the seven. The cueball was drawn back for position. It was a pretty shot. I set it up and made it myself. Pretty neat shot to have in your arsenal!!!

 

[Rude Dog]

Very nice Renard, very nice indeed.

 

[renard]

Very nice Renard, very nice indeed.

The thirteen ball actually goes further than the black line indicates. I ran out of arrows. Don't like to use the yellow 3 dot ones.

I remember Ewa Laurance had a book signing she was doing in town. Everyone came to see her put on an exhibition and talk about her book and pool. George Rood walks in and starts talking about certain shots after the whole thing was over. I didn't know who he was and asked someone. I'd never seen his face before but I heard of his name before.

He was describing shots and I found I was listening to him talk more than the person who was the center of attention at the time, Ewa. You could tell the man knew a lot about the game. Then everyone decided to go to Airway Billiards and I figured George would show up there. Never did. He's 91 now and apparently still hitting them around

 

[sjm]

Now that's a beautiful shot. Must admit, I've never seen it. George Rood is a well known legend, and it's no shocker that he knows how to pull this rabbit out of the hat.

Like I said, I saw no tactic that would be of any value here, so looking for a shot on the seven, no matter how bizarre or difficult, is logical here.

I still have to say that, even looking at the diagram, I don't know how I'd tell whether the shot was on or not.

 

[renard]

Now that's a beautiful shot. Must admit, I've never seen it. George Rood is a well known legend, and it's no shocker that he knows how to pull this rabbit out of the hat.

Like I said, I saw no tactic that would be of any value here, so looking for a shot on the seven, no matter how bizarre or difficult, is logical here.

I still have to say that, even looking at the diagram, I don't know how I'd tell whether the shot was on or not.

I agree the Wei is hard to set up by hand to even make it look right. There is no way of telling if it's on. But I had to share this I thought it was a great shot.

Also on that very shot with 10 pretty good pool shooters only one player had the answer. That answer came down to us from George Rood. Imagine the looks on everyones faces! We all had to try it then!

I guess what I'm trying to say is even with close scrutiny by 9 players we all would have tried something different that just wouldn't have worked!

 

[Rude Dog]

I'd say it's very similar to the One-Pocket shot where you send both balls toward your hole but the 2 balls are further up the rail, closer to the side pocket. I suppose they could be anywhere on the rail, for that matter, but less risk if they're closer to the side pocket than your diagram. Thanks for sharing Renard. Peace, John.

 

[renard]

I'd say it's very similar to the One-Pocket shot where you send both balls toward your hole but the 2 balls are further up the rail, closer to the side pocket. I suppose they could be anywhere on the rail, for that matter, but less risk if they're closer to the side pocket than your diagram. Thanks for sharing Renard. Peace, John.

Your exactly right John. I think this reenforces the school of thought that players who play all the games equaly well would probably see this shot. In retrospect I was thinking along the same lines as you that this is a one hole shot.

I play one hole but the darn thing was I and others at the time had our 8-ball thinking caps on and weren't thinking outside the box.

 

[Colin Colenso]

At the time I would have been in total agreement with you.

As my brother was conptemplating his options, I was whispering with a very good player on the opposing team on what to do.

He whispered that an old timer had shown him this exact shot and how to make it and get position on the 8-ball.

After he described it to me, the light bulb went on! I prayed that my brother would see it as well. Needless to say we lost the match.

There was much talk from everyone on how everything should have been done. I had my brother (and his opponent) set up the shot exactly the way it was laying.

This very good shooter (Luke) said before he shot the ball, "George Rood was the old timer that taught me this shot. He called it a pinch shot. And then he slammed it home."

For those of you who haven't heard of George Rood:
http://www.professorqball.com/displaystory.php?RecordID=112

January 10 started right on schedule with Jeanette Lee playing Bob Letherby. Lee fought a determined match, but fell short of the victory, with Letherby winning 25 to 18. On table number two George Rood, a young 91 years of age, from Dayton, OH was warming up in preparation for a match against Ed Friedman from Louisville, KY. Rood performed superbly, but Friedman got hot and tallied a final score of 25 to 16. Later in the day Jeanette Lee demonstrated her love and skill for 3-Cushion Billiards by winning her match against Gary Eake from Oshkosh, WI 25 to 21. Jeanette’s win placed her in one of the top two positions for the final matches to be played on the next day. Bob Letherby, with a perfect win loss record so far, will join Jeanette in their quest for victory.

Any way this is how he shot it:

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%Vf8D0%Wf1D3%XV1G1%Yr5Z0%Zh8C3%[V5E7%\a3C3%]r8J8%^i8E0
)END

The seven ball caroms off the 13 ball and was at the perfect bank angle to pocket the seven. The cueball was drawn back for position. It was a pretty shot. I set it up and made it myself. Pretty neat shot to have in your arsenal!!!

That's exactly the shot I was thinking b4 I saw you posted it. It looks like a natural plant to the lower right corner. Over the pocket would probably be good enough against someone of that ranking. They are unlikely to pot 4 balls even with BIH.

 

[sjm]

That's exactly the shot I was thinking b4 I saw you posted it. It looks like a natural plant to the lower right corner. Over the pocket would probably be good enough against someone of that ranking. They are unlikely to pot 4 balls even with BIH.

Now I'm getting frustrated.

Renard says you can't tell whether the shot is on or not from the diagram. You say it's a natural plant. Even for a given hit on the seven, it seems that where the seven will go is affected by how hard you hit it, as you'll affect the extent to which the long rail compresses.

How does one look at this shot and tell whether it's on? Does it matter where you hit the seven? How do you select your speed?

Knowing that this shot exists and knowing when and how to attempt to make it are two different matters.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Now I'm getting frustrated.

Renard says you can't tell whether the shot is on or not from the diagram. You say it's a natural plant. Even for a given hit on the seven, it seems that where the seven will go is affected by how hard you hit it, as you'll affect the extent to which the long rail compresses.

How does one look at this shot and tell whether it's on? Does it matter where you hit the seven? How do you select your speed?

Knowing that this shot exists and knowing when and how to attempt to make it are two different matters.

sjm,
This shot I look at as a mirror system, tangential to the contact point.

It can be manipulated with angle, speed and spin to send it a few degrees in either direction.

eg. Draw will make the ball go further right, as will getting some anticlockwise spin via either transfered side or contact direction induced side. Speed will straighten the angle off the rail.

Several variables to work with, but should be able to get the ball within 6" of the pocket (finish spot) and makeable from almost anywhere on the table if the angle is close and you know how to manipulate the pluses and minuses which control speed and angles.

edit add: I should say not a natural, but the angle as illustrated suggested to me it is worth a shot. Would have to see it on a table in real time and make adjustments as necessary.

 

[renard]

Now I'm getting frustrated.

Renard says you can't tell whether the shot is on or not from the diagram. You say it's a natural plant. Even for a given hit on the seven, it seems that where the seven will go is affected by how hard you hit it, as you'll affect the extent to which the long rail compresses.

How does one look at this shot and tell whether it's on? Does it matter where you hit the seven? How do you select your speed?

Knowing that this shot exists and knowing when and how to attempt to make it are two different matters.

Agreed. The shot my brother had to face was tougher because the 7 & 13 ball were not frozen. Yet with it not frozen you have more leeway in adjusting the shot. On the other hand if they are frozen it is either on or off with very little you can do to adjust the shot with draw or follow.

Without the 7 and 13 frozen, I could get the 7 to cross over near the corner pocket everytime I tried the shot but not necessarlly make it. I found that the 7 ball needed to rebound off the rail it was positioned by further down towards the corner pocket. Thus setting the angle of a bank to go long.

It is really a shot you have to set up and try to get the feel for.