????When the Japanese market dries up????

Tokyo-dave said:
The only guy buying cues in Japan is Lucky. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I would guess that there are close to 200 brand new Mike Sigel cues lying in storage here in Japan with no hope of ever making a return for their sorry dealers that are now stuck with them.
dave
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:):):) that's their dumb-@ssed fault for investing in sigel cues in the first place.

fortunately for cuemakers, no one will get upset(except maybe collectors) when their prices start dropping. in fact, players in the states will welcome it. i guess dp doesn't understand the law of diminishing returns:)
 
"cocobolo is pretty"

1pRoscoe said:
I disagree. I think that if everyone were as dry as half of the posters here, it would be a highly boring site.

He's not being an ass at all, he is conveying his opinion and looking for others.
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Ross
You going to Valley Forge this year? If so stop by and visit (I have some "cocobolo is pretty" stuff) - really wanted to see you again last year. And best luck on those tables.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
 
Jack Madden said:
Ross
You going to Valley Forge this year? If so stop by and visit (I have some "cocobolo is pretty" stuff) - really wanted to see you again last year. And best luck on those tables.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
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Ah, yes, I am always a sucker for nice cocobolo

Jack, I won't be able to attend this year. I had every intention, but based upon the job situation (about to get a lot better, ie-new), I won't be able to dedicate any time for that trip. I will be going to the BCA expo in Houston in April, if you plan on going....
 
1pRoscoe said:
I disagree. I think that if everyone were as dry as half of the posters here, it would be a highly boring site.

He's not being an ass at all, he is conveying his opinion and looking for others.
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Sometimes Roscoe, I think that you and I are the last of a dying breed!

That is the point of a forum! It is supposed to be a place where we can all get together and share our thoughts and opinions. Dave is entitled to share his feelings and his opinions just as others are entitled to disagree with them.

To say that he sounds like an ass when thus far he has sounded very rational and mature is just completely ridiculous.
 
pharaoh68 said:
Sometimes Roscoe, I think that you and I are the last of a dying breed!

That is the point of a forum! It is supposed to be a place where we can all get together and share our thoughts and opinions. Dave is entitled to share his feelings and his opinions just as others are entitled to disagree with them.

To say that he sounds like an ass when thus far he has sounded very rational and mature is just completely ridiculous.
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Very well said, young padawan..... :D
 
I'm not a good literature composer so all my thoughts are just thrown in. These are from my first-hand contact with the said market and are to be viewed as my opinion.

Japan true cue afficionados are still buying but with a highly refined taste and extensive knowledge of the products they purchase. Thanks to years of exposure and the internet. The consumers there have become highly knowledgeable and accepting of the quality at a price level that they are comfortable with. They'll research until they're confident that they make a good choice on a high $ cue before they upgrade.

Local Japanese production also made an impact on CNCd cues, the half-a$$ed rounded points and inlays variety. Musashi and Mezz makes cues with designs in the same lines (rounded cnc'd) but offer the ease of service, accessibility and less cost and hassle with the US Customs service.

Japanese consumers want quality and the piece of mind that they will get their cue back when sent for repair/upgrade work. This is a big contributory factor why I get a huge amount of repair/upgrade work and from these first hand contacts with the products I've made some observations. Rushed production to meet the high demand has the same result on a cuemaker's product no matter where the cuemaker is and no matter what knowledge or equipment is available to the cuemaker.
 
bruin70 said:
:):):) that's their dumb-@ssed fault for investing in sigel cues in the first place.
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I'm sure sorry I didn't pick up those DP's and Sigel cues when they were only $3K - $4K and being shipped to Japan by freight boat. Now look how much you have to pay. $6C - $8C. * Good thing I don't like rounded inlays.

Chris

* C note
 
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A little insider note

I used to work for a billiard supplies operation here, and one of my jobs was to attend all the cue conventions. One year, I was standing right next to Dan Janes whos booth was near Sigels. Dan was talking to a group of makers including Samsara, and Dishaw and they were all talking about Mikes cues. Here's what he said. "In my opinion, he's probably still the greatest player to have ever played the game. He quits cold turkey, and now he's become one of the better cue makers out there. Maybe I should go back to playing!!" After hearing what many considered a very candid endorsement for Mikes cue making abilities, I watched a guy pull out his credit card and let Mike charge his card for $10,000 on the spot to make 5 cues in designs and price ranges being left up to Mike. This guy was my boss.
The last I checked, there are still 3 cues left.
dave
 
Tokyo-dave said:
I used to work for a billiard supplies operation here, and one of my jobs was to attend all the cue conventions. One year, I was standing right next to Dan Janes whos booth was near Sigels. Dan was talking to a group of makers including Samsara, and Dishaw and they were all talking about Mikes cues. Here's what he said. "In my opinion, he's probably still the greatest player to have ever played the game. He quits cold turkey, and now he's become one of the better cue makers out there. Maybe I should go back to playing!!" After hearing what many considered a very candid endorsement for Mikes cue making abilities, I watched a guy pull out his credit card and let Mike charge his card for $10,000 on the spot to make 5 cues in designs and price ranges being left up to Mike. This guy was my boss.
The last I checked, there are still 3 cues left.
dave
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How's it going Dave? People should've listened to your assessment back then. IMO the main factor for the downslide in desirability of certain custom cue brands there in Japan is the realization of actual cue values specially after the dealers there went on a price war. Back in Tokyo 9 2001, I heard Japanese dealers complain about cuemakers who declined to exclusive distributorship agreements. Upset as they were, they had no choice but to join the bandwagon.
 
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Tokyo-dave said:
cues. Here's what he said. "In my opinion, he's probably still the greatest player to have ever played the game. He quits cold turkey, and now he's become one of the better cue makers out there. Maybe I should go back to playing!!"
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that would almost be hilarious if not for the fact that people are getting shell-shocked in their wallet. janes taught sigel, from what i heard, and they have a long history together. i wouldn't expect janes to say anything less. this is kinda like when donna summer and tony curtis sell their god awful paintings for $xx,xxx

and of course, sigel pays homage to janes by recycling those butt-ugly joss designs.
 
Upset Folks....?

bruin70 said:
:):):) that's their dumb-@ssed fault for investing in sigel cues in the first place.

fortunately for cuemakers, no one will get upset(except maybe collectors) when their prices start dropping. in fact, players in the states will welcome it. i guess dp doesn't understand the law of diminishing returns:)
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********************************************************

Clearly the collectors and the US dealers have seemed most vocal on this forum about not being able to add a Barrenbruge "feather to their bonnet."

I would bet that Dave had his eyes wide open when he made his deal with Lucky. It created a decent stable income that allowed him to work at something he loves to do. It was a personal and business decision that was made - not unlike decisions that most of us have to make from time to time.

If and when the "....Japanese market dries up" and his cues become available in the US - people are going to buy them - and they will buy them at a much higher price than if he had stayed a relatively unknown cuemaker struggling to sell his cues in the US - thanks to Lucky and that Japanese market.
 
SirBanksALot said:
***
If and when the "....Japanese market dries up" and his cues become available in the US - people are going to buy them - and they will buy them at a much higher price than if he had stayed a relatively unknown cuemaker struggling to sell his cues in the US - thanks to Lucky and that Japanese market.
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good point,,,and certainly a possibility. getting high visibility is always a good start. from then on, it's up to the cuemaker.
 
bruin70 said:
good point,,,and certainly a possibility. getting high visibility is always a good start. from then on, it's up to the cuemaker.
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Considering how short a time DB has been building cues (relative to most high end cuemakers) his name recognition is way up there. It was clearly and unequivocably a good business decision to go to market in the fashion he did!!

Now if someone could only build me some golf clubs to help me hit that ball straight - HA!!!
 
SirBanksALot said:
Clearly the collectors and the US dealers have seemed most vocal on this forum about not being able to add a Barrenbruge "feather to their bonnet.".
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Trust me, no dealer gives a crap. There are way to many good cuemakers in the USA to worry about one cuemaker, or 5-10 for that matter. As far as collectors, if they want one, they can buy from Lucky.

SirBanksALot said:
I would bet that Dave had his eyes wide open when he made his deal with Lucky. It created a decent stable income that allowed him to work at something he loves to do. It was a personal and business decision that was made - not unlike decisions that most of us have to make from time to time..
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This is very good for him. I wonder how many cuemakers rejected the offer? I know of a few.. Lucky has his own thing going, good for him. There are bad points to this, they just haven't been bought up yet, oh wait...

SirBanksALot said:
If and when the "....Japanese market dries up" and his cues become available in the US - people are going to buy them - and they will buy them at a much higher price than if he had stayed a relatively unknown cuemaker struggling to sell his cues in the US - thanks to Lucky and that Japanese market.
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Here it is.. you are being a little prophetic in your claim. How do you know the opposite won't happen? What if the Japanese market dries up and everyone says.. well our money wasn't good enough then, go screw now.
I realize you have a personal friendship stake, BUT that aside, people don't forget. Lucky can charge ridiculous prices because people pay them there, but if you think one of the DB cues that Lucky is showing for $ 6,400 or so US is going to get that here, you have NO clue to the US market. What you don't see in your theory is that some of the cuemakers Lucky had (has) locked up HAD previous US esposure. Black Boar, Scruggs, Showman, Cognoscenti all had followings here BEFORE Lucky. The problem DB will have is DB in the US will STILL be an unproven commodity, factor that in to the above problem of ditching the US market. Doesn't sound like the US market may or ever have that stability.

These are things that need to be thought out and addressed before one can make such a claim. Becuase I can guarantee that a collector, especially US, presented with a $ 6000 dollar Hercek, or Tascarella, and a $ 6000 dollar butterflycue, ain't taking the latter. Do you even think a 6400 dollar butterfly will stand up to a Gina, or a McWorter with the US dollar? So its a great thing Lucky has his market.

Now, so we are straight.. none of this is related to qulaity of product. Just business related.

Joe
 
bruin70 said:
that would almost be hilarious if not for the fact that people are getting shell-shocked in their wallet. janes taught sigel, from what i heard, and they have a long history together. i wouldn't expect janes to say anything less. this is kinda like when donna summer and tony curtis sell their god awful paintings for $xx,xxx

and of course, sigel pays homage to janes by recycling those butt-ugly joss designs.
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I think you might want to look the Bludworth direction for who taught Mike how to build cues.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
classiccues said:
Trust me, no dealer gives a crap. There are way to many good cuemakers in the USA to worry about one cuemaker, or 5-10 for that matter. As far as collectors, if they want one, they can buy from Lucky.



This is very good for him. I wonder how many cuemakers rejected the offer? I know of a few.. Lucky has his own thing going, good for him. There are bad points to this, they just haven't been bought up yet, oh wait...



Here it is.. you are being a little prophetic in your claim. How do you know the opposite won't happen? What if the Japanese market dries up and everyone says.. well our money wasn't good enough then, go screw now.
I realize you have a personal friendship stake, BUT that aside, people don't forget. Lucky can charge ridiculous prices because people pay them there, but if you think one of the DB cues that Lucky is showing for $ 6,400 or so US is going to get that here, you have NO clue to the US market. What you don't see in your theory is that some of the cuemakers Lucky had (has) locked up HAD previous US esposure. Black Boar, Scruggs, Showman, Cognoscenti all had followings here BEFORE Lucky. The problem DB will have is DB in the US will STILL be an unproven commodity, factor that in to the above problem of ditching the US market. Doesn't sound like the US market may or ever have that stability.

These are things that need to be thought out and addressed before one can make such a claim. Becuase I can guarantee that a collector, especially US, presented with a $ 6000 dollar Hercek, or Tascarella, and a $ 6000 dollar butterflycue, ain't taking the latter. Do you even think a 6400 dollar butterfly will stand up to a Gina, or a McWorter with the US dollar? So its a great thing Lucky has his market.

Now, so we are straight.. none of this is related to qulaity of product. Just business related.

Joe
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Ala Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction... "allow me to retort....":D

I would not even begin to argue with you - that's your business. And you are correct - I am not prophetic.

As an innocent but somewhat interested bystander I would only say that you can feel free to email me and remind me you were right when the "....market dries up" and DB cues are sitting idle in his shop and begging for a US home.

But, as you point out, it is business and it could be in your best business interests for DB cues not to sell if they are an entree into the US market and you don't have in your inventory. After all you do have a ton of dinero tied up in inventory - so your logic and perception could be somewhat tinted by dinero.

In a perfect world - you will continue to sell your inventory as you see fit and what price you choose and DB will do the same.

Personally - I don't necessarily care for butterfly cues and plus way out of my price range.....

But - I do have enough money to talk about that Tascarella on your website (Cue #603)-does this mean I can't hope to negotiate a better price than what your website shows?? I'll agree to whatever you say if it gets me a Tascarella without busting the budget and pissing my wife off !!!
 
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bruin70 said:
ok...then strike out the part where janes taught him,,,,the rest stays :)
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He worked for Joss in the late 1970's making cues too according to the BB.
 
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