Where do you hit the CB to get the most spin in a draw shot?

[dquarasr]

If you look at this study you can see that the pros hit all their draw shots with almost the same contact height on the cue ball. I think that by just hitting a ton of draw shots you will find this spot intuitively. The spot is 17.4 mm (11/16inch) from the cloth.

"A group of 20 top elite players (height: 180.2 ± 6.7 cm, mass: 80.3 ± 13.5 kg), all of them ranked under the top 80 of the Euro-tour of the European Pocket Billiard Federation, 5 of them former world champions"


View attachment 672012

Movement Variability of Professional Pool Billiards Players on Selected Tasks

Parameter values characterizing the motion of the cue during impact in pool billiards have been determined for selected shots. 20 elite players perfor…

www.sciencedirect.com

Interesting as heck. Do you know if the 11/16” quoted is the distance around the circumference of the sphere (where the CB touches the cloth) to where the cue touches the CB, or measured from the cloth directly below the CB contact point?

I would assume it’s the latter.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Interesting as heck. Do you know if the 11/16” quoted is the distance around the circumference of the sphere (where the CB touches the cloth) to where the cue touches the CB, or measured from the cloth directly below the CB contact point?

I would assume it’s the latter.

Yes, it's the height of the hit measured straight up from the cloth, not around the ball's surface. You can tell by the fact that the centerball line is 28+mm high, half of 57.15mm, the height of a ball. And 11/16" is 1/8" higher than the lower miscue limit, which is 9/16" from the cloth (+ a touch for not-quite-level cue).

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

Be careful about hitting “the same spot” - the miscue limit moves up as you elevate.

pj
chgo

I agree. I think elevating the cue should be a last resort, only when speed and tip placement aren't sufficient. I'm one of those same spot players who prefers to adjust speed rather than move the tip higher. But I'll change the tip position before I resort to changing the angle of attack.

 

[FranCrimi]

When working on long draw shots I simply say, "Try hitting a little higher than for max draw and see what happens." It's easy. The student gets a feel for it, just as I have. You can't reduce it to formulas because students don't learn by formulas. The physics part helps you understand the phenomenon but it is not required in play. It lets you know that there is something real there rather than some voodoo pool that has no basis in reality.

Yes, understood. But also, as you wrote before, it's counterintuitive. This will have to be a conscious decision, and because it counters the normal flow of a player's logic, it may have to stay as a conscious decision.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Yes, understood. But also, as you wrote before, it's counterintuitive. This will have to be a conscious decision, and because it counters the normal flow of a player's logic, it may have to stay as a conscious decision.

True, but hopefully with practice it will just be a different feel for the shot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The physics part helps you understand the phenomenon but it is not required in play. It lets you know that there is something real there rather than some voodoo pool that has no basis in reality.

I also think understanding the phenomenon can help with execution, even after you've "grooved the move".

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Be careful about hitting “the same spot” - the miscue limit moves up as you elevate.

pj
chgo

Agreed, although I'm not suggesting a semi-masse or jump shot.

 

[WobblyStroke]

You can also elevate the cue, while hitting at the same spot as before, to get more draw.

Def a last resort but this works like a charm. Just like the higher tip position with higher speed allow the high speed to minimize drag and loss of spin on the cueball due to friction, the cue elevation causes the ball to skip down the table, reducing drag even more since the ball isn't even in contact with the cloth for a good portion of its distance travelled. When Earl hits his exhibition draw shots, he usually jacks up and you can see the ball skipping down the table before zipping back off the OB.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Def a last resort but this works like a charm. Just like the higher tip position with higher speed allow the high speed to minimize drag and loss of spin on the cueball due to friction, the cue elevation causes the ball to skip down the table, reducing drag even more since the ball isn't even in contact with the cloth for a good portion of its distance travelled. When Earl hits his exhibition draw shots, he usually jacks up and you can see the ball skipping down the table before zipping back off the OB.

However, it's not all gain. Hitting downward drives the CB into the table surface, increasing friction and reducing backspin in that first instant - but with less forward speed the spin-to-speed ratio is better (= steeper draw, but not necessarily "more").

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

However, it's not all gain. Hitting downward drives the CB into the table surface, increasing friction and reducing backspin in that first instant - but with less forward speed the spin-to-speed ratio is better (= steeper draw, but not necessarily "more").

pj
chgo

With all the air time, def more spin left on the ball by the time it hits the OB compared to a ball that stays in contact with the cloth on the way there. It is interesting that it starts with less due to initial increased friction as you mentioned...news to me. But def has more left when you need it.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Def a last resort but this works like a charm. Just like the higher tip position with higher speed allow the high speed to minimize drag and loss of spin on the cueball due to friction, the cue elevation causes the ball to skip down the table, reducing drag even more since the ball isn't even in contact with the cloth for a good portion of its distance travelled. When Earl hits his exhibition draw shots, he usually jacks up and you can see the ball skipping down the table before zipping back off the OB.

Try it this way also--bridge to center cue ball, but then raise the cue SLIGHTLY rather then spread your bridge hand as for regular draw.

Try to play a regular center cue ball stroke, the feel will be different now, and the ball will draw, especiallly with a soft stroke, start with the cue ball six inches off the ob to get the feel.

 

[Pin]

Yes, it's the height of the hit measured straight up from the cloth, not around the ball's surface. You can tell by the fact that the centerball line is 28+mm high, half of 57.15mm, the height of a ball. And 11/16" is 1/8" higher than the lower miscue limit, which is 9/16" from the cloth (+ a touch for not-quite-level cue).

Presumably all calculated to the point where the tip contacts the CB (rather than where the center of the tip is pointing)?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Presumably all calculated to the point where the tip contacts the CB (rather than where the center of the tip is pointing)?

Yes, of course - the only point the CB knows about.

pj
chgo

 

[Pin]

Yes, of course - the only point the CB knows about.

Thanks