Where do you hit the CB to get the most spin in a draw shot?

[fish2]

Where do you hit the CB to get the most spin in a draw shot?

My understanding is the lower the better, is this correct?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Where do you hit the CB to get the most spin in a draw shot?

My understanding is the lower the better, is this correct?

That's correct for most spin, but most spin doesn't always = most draw. For longer draw shots it's often better to hit slightly above maximum draw (~80% of maximum) to get more speed - the speed keeps the backspin from rubbing off as quickly so there's more left on the CB at contact (i.e., more draw).

Here's Dr. Dave's advice on the topic:

Cue Tip Height on CB - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

How high or low should you contact the CB for different types of shots? See the illustration below from “How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011). To have the CB roll immediately (e.g., for a follow shot where the OB is close to the CB), the tip contact height […]

billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

That's correct for most spin, but most spin doesn't always = most draw. For longer draw shots it's often better to hit slightly above maximum draw (~80% of maximum) to get more speed - the speed keeps the backspin from rubbing off as quickly so there's more left on the CB at contact (i.e., more draw).

Here's Dr. Dave's advice on the topic:

Cue Tip Height on CB - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

How high or low should you contact the CB for different types of shots? See the illustration below from “How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011). To have the CB roll immediately (e.g., for a follow shot where the OB is close to the CB), the tip contact height […]

billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo

Another advantage of aiming a little higher on long, fast draw shots is that if your large effort moves the tip lower than intended, you won't miscue.

Virtual Pool confirms the idea of hitting a little above max low on long draw shots.

 

[skiergd011013]

As low as I can while making sure the full tip is still hitting the cueball. The type of cueball and cloth makes a massive difference in achieving draw. For example If you can get a little draw on a heavy bar cueball with dirty cloth, you can probably draw near table length with a normal ball on clean fast cloth.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As low as I can while making sure the full tip is still hitting the cueball.

[nitpick on]

I assume you mean "the full tip is still covering the cueball" - of course the full tip can never hit the CB (not all at once).

[nitpick off]

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

That's correct for most spin, but most spin doesn't always = most draw. For longer draw shots it's often better to hit slightly above maximum draw (~80% of maximum) to get more speed - the speed keeps the backspin from rubbing off as quickly so there's more left on the CB at contact (i.e., more draw).

Here's Dr. Dave's advice on the topic:

Cue Tip Height on CB - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

How high or low should you contact the CB for different types of shots? See the illustration below from “How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011). To have the CB roll immediately (e.g., for a follow shot where the OB is close to the CB), the tip contact height […]

billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo

Why can't you hit it as low as possible and just move your arm faster?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Why can't you hit it as low as possible and just move your arm faster?

At some point you can't move your arm any faster. A typical shot that this idea applies to is with the cue ball behind line, the object ball near the side cushion and the foot pocket and the goal is to draw back to the head cushion. For an arm speed in that range, and for typical clean but used cloth, and for a given stick speed, you get more draw to the cue ball by hitting slightly above max low.

The important point here is that for a given stick speed and a long way to the object ball, as low as possible does not give you the most draw.

For a given stick speed, hitting farther off center reduces the speed of the cue ball leaving the tip. A slower ball has more time to lose its draw.

 

[FranCrimi]

At some point you can't move your arm any faster. A typical shot that this idea applies to is with the cue ball behind line, the object ball near the side cushion and the foot pocket and the goal is to draw back to the head cushion. For an arm speed in that range, and for typical clean but used cloth, and for a given stick speed, you get more draw to the cue ball by hitting slightly above max low.

The important point here is that for a given stick speed and a long way to the object ball, as low as possible does not give you the most draw.

For a given stick speed, hitting farther off center reduces the speed of the cue ball leaving the tip. A slower ball has more time to lose its draw.

I understand the logic. So then it all comes down to how far the player can get the cb to slide, correct?

OK, so let's put a little reverse (pardon the pun) on this concept. If I can get the cb to slide the same distance on two identical shots, except on one shot I strike the cb the at the lowest point possible and on the other shot I strike it above the lowest point possible, will one shot draw the the cb back farther?

Because if it's about sliding, I know I can get the cb to slide pretty far while still hitting the lowest point. How much more sliding does a player need?

 

[Renegade_56]

below center, results may vary

 

[Bob Jewett]

I understand the logic. So then it all comes down to how far the player can get the cb to slide, correct?
...

No, it's got nothing to do with the player. For long draw shots, if you shoot with a particular cue speed, you will draw the cue ball farther with a slightly higher hit. If you hit it harder, you will draw the cue ball farther and about that same higher hit will give you more draw than the lowest possible hit.

I was quite surprised when I discovered this during draw practice. I came up a little bit and suddenly the cue ball zipped right back. Entirely unexpected and counterintuitive. I was glad to see my observation confirmed both by equations and simulations.

 

[pagaspoling]

If you look at this study you can see that the pros hit all their draw shots with almost the same contact height on the cue ball. I think that by just hitting a ton of draw shots you will find this spot intuitively. The spot is 17.4 mm (11/16inch) from the cloth.

"A group of 20 top elite players (height: 180.2 ± 6.7 cm, mass: 80.3 ± 13.5 kg), all of them ranked under the top 80 of the Euro-tour of the European Pocket Billiard Federation, 5 of them former world champions"

Movement Variability of Professional Pool Billiards Players on Selected Tasks

Parameter values characterizing the motion of the cue during impact in pool billiards have been determined for selected shots. 20 elite players perfor…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Where do you hit the CB to get the most spin in a draw shot?

My understanding is the lower the better, is this correct?

You can also elevate the cue, while hitting at the same spot as before, to get more draw.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You can also elevate the cue, while hitting at the same spot as before, to get more draw.

Be careful about hitting “the same spot” - the miscue limit moves up as you elevate.

pj
chgo

 

[skiergd011013]

[nitpick on]

I assume you mean "the full tip is still covering the cueball" - of course the full tip can never hit the CB (not all at once).

[nitpick off]

pj
chgo

yup. Another rough way to explain where i hit a draw shot is to set
the tip on the cloth infront of the cueball, then bring it up one tip. That is roughly where i hit. Of course i dont actually do that. I just eye ball it.

 

[FranCrimi]

No, it's got nothing to do with the player. For long draw shots, if you shoot with a particular cue speed, you will draw the cue ball farther with a slightly higher hit. If you hit it harder, you will draw the cue ball farther and about that same higher hit will give you more draw than the lowest possible hit.

I was quite surprised when I discovered this during draw practice. I came up a little bit and suddenly the cue ball zipped right back. Entirely unexpected and counterintuitive. I was glad to see my observation confirmed both by equations and simulations.

So if it's not the player, and it's more of a matter of physics, then it would be helpful to be able to say, at X mph, and at X distance, requiring the cb to draw back X distance, then 1/2 or 1 tip higher than the lowest acceptable strike point on the cb would be optimal.

Otherwise, how do you teach something like this? How have you determined for yourself when to hit higher than the lowest possible point? Because, we know that there are other types of shots where the lowest possible point will yield better results, right? So in a match, for instance, how do you know when you're not about to sell yourself short by hitting higher?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... how do you teach something like this? ...

When working on long draw shots I simply say, "Try hitting a little higher than for max draw and see what happens." It's easy. The student gets a feel for it, just as I have. You can't reduce it to formulas because students don't learn by formulas. The physics part helps you understand the phenomenon but it is not required in play. It lets you know that there is something real there rather than some voodoo pool that has no basis in reality.

 

[xX-Wizard-Xx]

So if it's not the player, and it's more of a matter of physics, then it would be helpful to be able to say, at X mph, and at X distance, requiring the cb to draw back X distance, then 1/2 or 1 tip higher than the lowest acceptable strike point on the cb would be optimal.

Otherwise, how do you teach something like this? How have you determined for yourself when to hit higher than the lowest possible point? Because, we know that there are other types of shots where the lowest possible point will yield better results, right? So in a match, for instance, how do you know when you're not about to sell yourself short by hitting higher?

Just go out and ply and learn ... pool is as much about feel and experience as setting exact numbers and expecting exact results

 

[xX-Wizard-Xx]

even the tightness of the cloth and wear affects the amount of draw applied. so expecting to hit a ball at such and such speed will not be exactly reproducible on all tables

 

[Bob Jewett]

even the tightness of the cloth and wear affects the amount of draw applied. so expecting to hit a ball at such and such speed will not be exactly reproducible on all tables

I think this is a common misconception. The amount of draw applied to the cue ball is not significantly changed by the cloth. The amount of draw the cue ball has when it gets to the object ball is greatly affected by the cloth.

 

[bbb]

i am not very sophisticated so for me i figure out where i have to hit the cue ball and how hard for a stop shot
then adjust down my tip based on how far i need to draw
i will need to experiment with the idea to adjust LESS down for more draw with more distance between cue ball and object ball