Which cues/cuemakers have gone down in value/quality?

[cueman]

The flood of cuemakers that are producing cues could only drive prices down some in the new cue market and create a huge used cue market. But when we talk High end cues one of the main downfalls was brought on by CNC equipment. Even with the flood of cuemakers coming in at first it did not effect the high end market so much, because they used manual equipment and had a slower learning curve to produce really high end cues. But with CNC equipment making it to where a relatively new cuemaker can make a really fancy cue. It leveled the playing field without showing true quality of craftsmanship and the normal experience that would be expected to get there. Remember when China started sending out all the decal cues that looked like $1000 cues. It hurt the American made lower end market. Now you have lower quality American made cues that look similar to other high end cues. The general public either buys a name or a look. And the collectors market is very small so only the highly collectable cues are going to bring premium $$$.

 

[bandido]

The flood of cuemakers that are producing cues could only drive prices down some in the new cue market and create a huge used cue market. But when we talk High end cues one of the main downfalls was brought on by CNC equipment. Even with the flood of cuemakers coming in at first it did not effect the high end market so much, because they used manual equipment and had a slower learning curve to produce really high end cues. But with CNC equipment making it to where a relatively new cuemaker can make a really fancy cue. It leveled the playing field without showing true quality of craftsmanship and the normal experience that would be expected to get there. Remember when China started sending out all the decal cues that looked like $1000 cues. It hurt the American made lower end market. Now you have lower quality American made cues that look similar to other high end cues. The general public either buys a name or a look. And the collectors market is very small so only the highly collectable cues are going to bring premium $$$.

Not to disagree but to add to. CNC did make it easier for most to make multi-inlayed cues and consumer response to this, at the start, somehow turned a "fad-like" following. Some CNC users did strive to push the capabilities of this technology and some just stayed. Those who stayed are the ones that were hit hard by the "sticker cues" While the ones who pushed the capabilities were rewarded the following and recognition of the consumers whose understanding, of how this new technology is best utilized in this craft, caught up.

 

[lunchmoney]

does any1 here have an opinion of rich benson I have personally owned 5 and still own 4 of them i really like them but what does every1 here think of the quality of rich's cues

macaframa,

I live on the other side of the state from you and have had the opportunity to hit with Rich's cues and talk to people who own them. I have never heard a negative comment about a Benson. Everyone I talked to liked the hit on his cues and his name is well respected as a cue maker. Do you have any of his cues for sale? I know some people that might be interested. I met Rich back in the late '80s and again in the mid '90s when I was working in the Kennewick area (Finley) and found him to be a very personable fellow. Does he still live in Kennewick?

Lunchmoney

 

[X Breaker]

The flood of cuemakers that are producing cues could only drive prices down some in the new cue market and create a huge used cue market. But when we talk High end cues one of the main downfalls was brought on by CNC equipment. Even with the flood of cuemakers coming in at first it did not effect the high end market so much, because they used manual equipment and had a slower learning curve to produce really high end cues. But with CNC equipment making it to where a relatively new cuemaker can make a really fancy cue. It leveled the playing field without showing true quality of craftsmanship and the normal experience that would be expected to get there. Remember when China started sending out all the decal cues that looked like $1000 cues. It hurt the American made lower end market. Now you have lower quality American made cues that look similar to other high end cues. The general public either buys a name or a look. And the collectors market is very small so only the highly collectable cues are going to bring premium $$$.

I believe low labor cost, CNC equipment coupled with precise machinery are what make the Chinese production plants so successful in gaining the middle price range market in recent years.

It is very sad because I think it means a price competiton will be taking place in not only the low end but also the middle range cues market in the US.

The quality of US product will have to be compromised one way or another if they want to survive. When the price of cues drops in general, the whole market will be affected. If we do not do something about this, the quality of cues made in the US will be compromised.

Pool cue has a very long history and heritage in the US. It is something all cue lovers in North America should be proud of. Lots of time and efforts have been invested by many cue makers before our time to bring us the fine cues we have today.

I know a lot of members here love cues, and I urge you to think twice when you are trying to decide buying an overseas product or a made in the USA(or Canada) product. Your action will have an impact on the cue industry in the future.

Richard

 

[BrooklynJay]

There's another thread where I see everyone praising the quality and the playability of Coker cues and the outstanding customer service provided by the cuemakers - yet on this thread it's been mentioned several times, not as a cue that's gone done in quality, but one that hasn't gone up in value or held it's value well.

This got me wondering why this might be happening and I think it's because an authorized dealer or the cuemaker offers the cue up for auction on ebay regularly.

There are two reasons to go shopping on ebay - looking for something rare, like a SW cue, or looking for a good deal.

When you can purchase a brand new Coker cue for less than retail price/suggested price then that just causes a drop in value - why would anyone pay full price? Why would the cue go up in value when you can get a new one easily at a pretty substantial discount?

I don't think the downfall of Dale Perry's cue are a drop in quality - but by him selling regularly on ebay he did devalue his cues and upset collectors who may have paid full price.

Anyway, just got thinking and was wondering what others thought on my little theory of devaluation as it relates to ebay.

 

[asiasdad]

Your Ebay Theory

There's another thread where I see everyone praising the quality and the playability of Coker cues and the outstanding customer service provided by the cuemakers - yet on this thread it's been mentioned several times, not as a cue that's gone done in quality, but one that hasn't gone up in value or held it's value well.

This got me wondering why this might be happening and I think it's because an authorized dealer or the cuemaker offers the cue up for auction on ebay regularly.

There are two reasons to go shopping on ebay - looking for something rare, like a SW cue, or looking for a good deal.

When you can purchase a brand new Coker cue for less than retail price/suggested price then that just causes a drop in value - why would anyone pay full price? Why would the cue go up in value when you can get a new one easily at a pretty substantial discount?

I don't think the downfall of Dale Perry's cue are a drop in quality - but by him selling regularly on ebay he did devalue his cues and upset collectors who may have paid full price.

Anyway, just got thinking and was wondering what others thought on my little theory of devaluation as it relates to ebay.

I would agree with your ebay theory, however take a close look at the DP cues on there and you will see a lot of mistakes in alignment on various inlays, they look a lot like ebay phillipino cues (no disrespect to Edwin)

 

[cueaddicts]

...This got me wondering why this might be happening and I think it's because an authorized dealer or the cuemaker offers the cue up for auction on ebay regularly.

There are two reasons to go shopping on ebay - looking for something rare, like a SW cue, or looking for a good deal.

When you can purchase a brand new Coker cue for less than retail price/suggested price then that just causes a drop in value - why would anyone pay full price? Why would the cue go up in value when you can get a new one easily at a pretty substantial discount?

Very good points.

For some time, we have seen an influx of "dealers" that are allowed to buy cues direct from cuemakers, then turn around and hore the cues out for 5-10% over their wholesale cost. When this happens it diminsihes a cuemaker's retail value by 10-30%. I've never understood "dealers" doing that or the cuemakers that allow it to happen. There are some very specific examples that come to mind.

Custom cuemakers that allow this to happen really have no one to blame but themselves, and the people who want to be dealers that participate in this practice obviously don't care much about the cuemakers. Right?

Simply put, some cuemakers just have poor business sense. Same is true for many other artisans, though.

Sean

 

[X Breaker]

Very good points.

For some time, we have seen an influx of "dealers" that are allowed to buy cues direct from cuemakers, then turn around and hore the cues out for 5-10% over their wholesale cost. When this happens it diminsihes a cuemaker's retail value by 10-30%. I've never understood "dealers" doing that or the cuemakers that allow it to happen. There are some very specific examples that come to mind.

Custom cuemakers that allow this to happen really have no one to blame but themselves, and the people who want to be dealers that participate in this practice obviously don't care much about the cuemakers. Right?

Simply put, some cuemakers just have poor business sense. Same is true for many other artisans, though.

Sean

Yes, I totally agree with you. Cue makers who allow that to happen make it harder for dealers to make a profit selling their cues, that would cost the cue makers business as there will be lesser dealers interested in dealing with their cues.

The dealers also need to understand, in my opinion, that they are not only protecting the interest of the cue makers, but that of the value of the cues they are selling when they stand their ground and hold on to a certain price.

It is a mutually beneficial decision which would go a long way.

The problem I think is that it takes everyone's cooperation in order for this to work. If a few dealers are selling their cues almost at cost, and the cue maker still supplies them with cues, then other dealers will feel like they have to match the price, or quit dealing with the cue maker.

Richard

 

[bandido]

I would agree with your ebay theory, however take a close look at the DP cues on there and you will see a lot of mistakes in alignment on various inlays, they look a lot like ebay phillipino cues (no disrespect to Edwin)

None taken, thank you. I chose to live a simple life thus don't have a need to compete for market share. One reason for the decline in quality is coping with the demand for increased output and lifestyle needs. I regulate both in order to keep enjoying what's important to me. My craft, my family and my responsible friends.

 

[cueman]

Not to disagree but to add to. CNC did make it easier for most to make multi-inlayed cues and consumer response to this, at the start, somehow turned a "fad-like" following. Some CNC users did strive to push the capabilities of this technology and some just stayed. Those who stayed are the ones that were hit hard by the "sticker cues" While the ones who pushed the capabilities were rewarded the following and recognition of the consumers whose understanding, of how this new technology is best utilized in this craft, caught up.

Well said!

 

[cuetechasaurus]

William Wonka's cues have gone down considerably. Ever since his oompa loompas started smoking crack.

 

[Tommy-D]

> I really think that Russ Espiritu's cues have not been undervalued,they simply have not gone thru the roof pricewise like some cuemakers have. For example,when his cues first showed up in Jackson,Tn,you could buy a totally plain birdseye cue for 300 bucks with 1 shaft. They are no more than 50 bucks higher than that now,making it not much more expensive to buy a well made cue like he makes than what he was charging 10 years ago. Look at Joe Gold,his plain cues started at 700 with 2 shafts back in the day,and are now at 1300 or so,and it wasn't too long ago they were 4-500 more than that,and triple if you bought it from Lucky. I also respectfully disagree with claims that his quality has gone down,if anything it's gone up,best I can tell. Dale Perry is another,there may be bad cues from him out there,I just haven't seen one,if anything his hurting his resale values or overall value,it's Ebay. On the other hand,maybe in his mind he is doing the game more of a service by taking a slight hit on his personal bottom line,in an effort to get more reasonably high quality cues into the hands of more and more widely varied clientele. I can't really speak for Coker,having only seen 2 cues from him. Tommy D.

 

[X Breaker]

Well, sometimes the value is not a true reflection of quality of workmanship. It may have more to do with promotion and marketing. In some cases, it is customer service, not just that offered by the cue maker but that by the dealers as well.

Richard

 

[Flex]

Yes, I totally agree with you. Cue makers who allow that to happen make it harder for dealers to make a profit selling their cues, that would cost the cue makers business as there will be lesser dealers interested in dealing with their cues.

The dealers also need to understand, in my opinion, that they are not only protecting the interest of the cue makers, but that of the value of the cues they are selling when they stand their ground and hold on to a certain price.

It is a mutually beneficial decision which would go a long way.

The problem I think is that it takes everyone's cooperation in order for this to work. If a few dealers are selling their cues almost at cost, and the cue maker still supplies them with cues, then other dealers will feel like they have to match the price, or quit dealing with the cue maker.

Richard

Sounds to me like it's really of function of supply and demand, and desirability for a specific cue, or a cuemaker's cue.

If the price put on a new cue is unreasonable, it might not sell, unless the right buyer is found.

And if a certain price is put on a used cue, why it sells or does not sell at a certain price is one of those things people can discuss endlessly.

If someone buys a cue as an investment, it seems to me it should have intrinsic worth that will justify someone paying dearly for it. In this case, perhaps gold, silver, diamonds, rubies, rare wood that is most beautiful, etc. etc.

The quality of workmanship is something that may or may not command a price. And if it looks great but hits not so well, what's going to happen with it?

I know a fellow who bought a beautiful cue, full of exquisite filigree silver inlays, paid a pretty penny for it. After a month he wanted to unload it. Why? He didn't like and was unable to get used to the way it hit, and played.

In his case, he didn't especially need the money, and I don't know if he ever sold it. But he sure didn't like the hit. Had the hit worked for him, he'd still be playing with a spectacular looking, somewhat understated cue.

Another thing. A cuemaker lives by selling cues, or repairing them, or whatever. If it is his only livelihood, and he has a family to feed, he needs to move the cues. If his price isn't right, he'll lower the price until it sells, or maybe go out of business. Just because the price drops doesn't mean the quality isn't there....

If he moves his cues by selling to dealers and they in turn hawk them for 10 or 15 percent above what they paid, that's their business too.

The really good cuemakers who put out top quality sticks don't seem to have any trouble selling their wares. Why? Quality, the name, the way their cues play.

Flex