Which game is the best measure of greatness?
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
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most difficult games
I would agree with Jay that the two most difficult games to play are rotation,and one pocket.Reyes is unbeatable at both games,but is vulnerable in all other games. Rotation is the most demanding game ,constantly challenging you to free up clusters,and at the same time playing position on the next ball with the correct angle for the next shot. Plus you have to be an excellent shot maker ,not to mention all the differen't strokes that you need to develope. Straight pool is not nearly as complex mainly because of all the options that are readily available. One pocket is another difficult game to play world class,because it requires skills in every facet of pool, shot making,position play,kicking,ball running,managing,creativity,and you must have defensive skills. I remember Reyes spotting Hopkins the 15 ball playing rotation, and Reyes won. I also remember in Portland Maine when Reyes,Wiley,and Strickland entered a straight pool tounament with a quality field and finished 1st.2nd.and 3rd.
Shawn Armstrong said:
I would agree with Jay that the two most difficult games to play are rotation,and one pocket.Reyes is unbeatable at both games,but is vulnerable in all other games. Rotation is the most demanding game ,constantly challenging you to free up clusters,and at the same time playing position on the next ball with the correct angle for the next shot. Plus you have to be an excellent shot maker ,not to mention all the differen't strokes that you need to develope. Straight pool is not nearly as complex mainly because of all the options that are readily available. One pocket is another difficult game to play world class,because it requires skills in every facet of pool, shot making,position play,kicking,ball running,managing,creativity,and you must have defensive skills. I remember Reyes spotting Hopkins the 15 ball playing rotation, and Reyes won. I also remember in Portland Maine when Reyes,Wiley,and Strickland entered a straight pool tounament with a quality field and finished 1st.2nd.and 3rd.
Blackjack said:
I feel you said it well David. Buddy was IMO the best at 9-ball, so why wasnt he the best at 14.1? Same could be said of Mosconi and 14.1 vs 1-pocket or 9-ball. Who says that they couldn't have been. They all had their game of choice and obviously enjoyed them more than other games.
Myself, I would like to haven taken Worst, Ron Allen Moscconi, Buddy, Crane and Lassiter and locked them all in the pool hall for about 1 week, and well, just see what may have happened.
wincardona said:
Although Rotation and 1-Pocket are the toughest games, is it the best measure of greatness? Saying that Efren would be vulnerable in the other games, makes me wonder.
I believe 14.1 is the best measure. I think of all the straight pool players that easily crossed over to the other games - Nick Varner, Steve Mizerak, Jim Rempe, Mike Sigel; there are many examples.
Everyone is leaving out 3-Cushion Billiards
You're asking which game measures pool greatness.... One Pocket.
Who wins the big 9-ball tournaments EVERY year?... Who wins (won) the big time 14.1 tournaments EVERY year?... There are obviously players who are better than others, but it's not a big shock when these 'better' players aren't the ones winning the tournaments...
Who wins the big one-pocket tournaments EVERY year.... Efren.. He is the greatest one pocket player, and he wins... in my opinion, that shows that One Pocket is a game designed the let the 'GREATEST' player win more frequently. So it is obviously the game which is best at measuring skills.
Make sense?
I've not seen enough rotation to give my thoughts on it, but if Jay says it than I'd give it thought.
Who wins the big 9-ball tournaments EVERY year?... Who wins (won) the big time 14.1 tournaments EVERY year?... There are obviously players who are better than others, but it's not a big shock when these 'better' players aren't the ones winning the tournaments...
Who wins the big one-pocket tournaments EVERY year.... Efren.. He is the greatest one pocket player, and he wins... in my opinion, that shows that One Pocket is a game designed the let the 'GREATEST' player win more frequently. So it is obviously the game which is best at measuring skills.
Make sense?
I've not seen enough rotation to give my thoughts on it, but if Jay says it than I'd give it thought.
Thought I'd leave that game out of this one.dirtybobjr said:
Many people feel 3C is the hardest game of all billiards games. I really don't like the argument. All the games are hard to play at a high level. Whenever I'm asked one of these questions I think of how few players there are at the top of the world for any game. They're all tough otherwise the games would be worthless. In 3C at a world class level there is OB control but not to the extent for pocket games. Balkline or Straight Rail is probably harder than 3C because of the precision required for OB & CB control plus the high runs required to win a championship. That was Welker Cochren's opinion
It's my humble opinion that it takes knowledge of all the games including 3C to play 1 pocket at a world class level. Balkline may help with 1P as well.
wincardona said:
Billy,
Thank you very much for that line that I've put in blue and bold.
I know a fellow in the Chicago area whose name is Phil, or at least he goes by that name, who told me you showed him many different safeties, and he in turn showed me a few of those too.
Very helpful stuff.
Now, in this post, you've mentioned about developing "all the different strokes." Would you care to elaborate a bit on that?
Most appreciative.
Flex
I don't know, but what I know without a shadow of a doubt is that if the races are long enough, the game itself doesn't much matter and the cream will rise to the top
if they played 4-6 hr matches like in snooker, you could play three ball for all I care
nine ball imo is just as tough as straights and one pocket but with slop
and short races, you often see top players losing so it doesn't get the respect it deserves
today's nine ball races are a joke
if they played 4-6 hr matches like in snooker, you could play three ball for all I care
nine ball imo is just as tough as straights and one pocket but with slop
and short races, you often see top players losing so it doesn't get the respect it deserves
today's nine ball races are a joke
The Woim
Banned
3 Cushions should not be included in this list
No disrespect to the great game of 3 Cushions - it's a great game. And a very classy game played by gentlemen but we're talking pocket billiards here.
Whereas 1P is the most difficult because it entails all the skills, it does contain a road map. Even the dimmest pool player can identify his pocket whereas in 14.1 shot selection is what separates the 13 ball runners from the 100 ball runners.
Let's give three cheers for 14.1! Hip hip hooray...
Why do all the 1P greats look like homeless men?
The Woim
No disrespect to the great game of 3 Cushions - it's a great game. And a very classy game played by gentlemen but we're talking pocket billiards here.
Whereas 1P is the most difficult because it entails all the skills, it does contain a road map. Even the dimmest pool player can identify his pocket whereas in 14.1 shot selection is what separates the 13 ball runners from the 100 ball runners.
Let's give three cheers for 14.1! Hip hip hooray...
Why do all the 1P greats look like homeless men?
The Woim
Lol
Well, I'll start a new game:
1) It is call "14 V" or "3 pocket". Each player selects a corner pocket like in 1 Pocket. He then has the opposite side pocket, and back across for the other corner pocket. His pockets form a 'v' shape. Likewise his opponent has the other 3 remaining pockets.
2) If a ball is made into your opponents pockets, it is loss of turn, and the ball is spotted up.
3) Call Pocket. Even on the break.
4) A scratch costs you a ball. If a ball is made on the scratch turn, it is spotted plus one.
5) 14.1 rules apply. When one ball remains, the other 14 are racked as in 14.1, and play continues.
6) Games are played to an agreed upon amount, i.e., to 50, 100, 125, or 150.
There, you have a combination of 1 Pocket and 14.1, Are you happy?
Defense of the 3 opponents pockets comes into play like 1 pocket, making runs are harder than 14.1, more banking required, heck, it's a pretty good idea. I started out just to be sarcastic, but this sounds pretty interesting.... ROFL
Well, I'll start a new game:
1) It is call "14 V" or "3 pocket". Each player selects a corner pocket like in 1 Pocket. He then has the opposite side pocket, and back across for the other corner pocket. His pockets form a 'v' shape. Likewise his opponent has the other 3 remaining pockets.
2) If a ball is made into your opponents pockets, it is loss of turn, and the ball is spotted up.
3) Call Pocket. Even on the break.
4) A scratch costs you a ball. If a ball is made on the scratch turn, it is spotted plus one.
5) 14.1 rules apply. When one ball remains, the other 14 are racked as in 14.1, and play continues.
6) Games are played to an agreed upon amount, i.e., to 50, 100, 125, or 150.
There, you have a combination of 1 Pocket and 14.1, Are you happy?
Defense of the 3 opponents pockets comes into play like 1 pocket, making runs are harder than 14.1, more banking required, heck, it's a pretty good idea. I started out just to be sarcastic, but this sounds pretty interesting.... ROFL
The Woim
Banned
Straight Pool
14.1 is the game of champions because it's much more intellectual than 1P. Also, 1P is a cheap hustler's gimmicky game full of tricks and nonsense. Sure, it's the toughest game, but does tough mean champion? Does tough define class? No way, no how!
My 9 year old son devised a game where you put a piece of chalk in front of each pocket. Six balls are racked and the balls are pocketed in rotation. The 1 ball must be pocketed in the left corner pocket at the foot of the table. If the chalk stays on top of the table, the 1 ball is spotted. Here's another catch. The two ball must be pocketed in the right corner pocket at the foot of the table. Each ball follows... 3 ball in the side pocket, etc. etc... It's a tough game.
Of course, what's more ridiculous than two homeless looking men trying to protect their assigned corner pocket? I mean no disrespect to the greats of 1 pocket. No disrespect whatsoever.
1P lacks the elegance and disgnity of 14.1.
1P is technically more difficult than 14.1 but so is the game my son invented.
People hate 9 ball because it will show up a lousy shotmaker as the poser he is.
Straight pool is the greatest of games.
Enough on this subject.
I would play 1P but I still like to shower everyday and I have a strange fondness for wearing clean clothes!
The Woim
14.1 is the game of champions because it's much more intellectual than 1P. Also, 1P is a cheap hustler's gimmicky game full of tricks and nonsense. Sure, it's the toughest game, but does tough mean champion? Does tough define class? No way, no how!
My 9 year old son devised a game where you put a piece of chalk in front of each pocket. Six balls are racked and the balls are pocketed in rotation. The 1 ball must be pocketed in the left corner pocket at the foot of the table. If the chalk stays on top of the table, the 1 ball is spotted. Here's another catch. The two ball must be pocketed in the right corner pocket at the foot of the table. Each ball follows... 3 ball in the side pocket, etc. etc... It's a tough game.
Of course, what's more ridiculous than two homeless looking men trying to protect their assigned corner pocket? I mean no disrespect to the greats of 1 pocket. No disrespect whatsoever.
1P lacks the elegance and disgnity of 14.1.
1P is technically more difficult than 14.1 but so is the game my son invented.
People hate 9 ball because it will show up a lousy shotmaker as the poser he is.
Straight pool is the greatest of games.
Enough on this subject.
I would play 1P but I still like to shower everyday and I have a strange fondness for wearing clean clothes!
The Woim
The Woim said:I would play 1P but I still like to shower everyday and I have a strange fondness for wearing clean clothes!
The Woim
Maybe you should play somewhere besides Cahokia and East St. Louis. Some of us dress nicely.
One Pocket is my choice just because of the strategy and knowledge required. You have to study the game to become good at it, it's not enough to just be a straight shooter. Straight pool is a great game of course but it's kind of one dimensional. Maybe if I played it more I'd have a different opinion.
Agreed. We have another area for 3C discussions.The Woim said:No disrespect to the great game of 3 Cushions - it's a great game. And a very classy game played by gentlemen but we're talking pocket billiards here.
Whereas 1P is the most difficult because it entails all the skills, it does contain a road map. Even the dimmest pool player can identify his pocket whereas in 14.1 shot selection is what separates the 13 ball runners from the 100 ball runners.
Let's give three cheers for 14.1! Hip hip hooray...
Why do all the 1P greats look like homeless men?
The Woim
I'm sure I'm biased since it has become my favorite game (obsession, maybe?) in the last couple years, but I would have to answer that question with "straight pool". I do admit, however, that it isn't much of a measure of banking ability, but that's about the only skill that I see being untested in the game of straight pool. Well, that and smashing into the balls really hard (i.e., the break in other games).
Shawn Armstrong said:
You really are clueless. The only games Mike could beat Efren playing was 9-ball and 14.1. Mike Sigel was a great bank pool player, but he couldn't beat Efren playing banks. He couldn't beat Efren playing 8-ball. He couldn't beat Efren playing 1pocket. He couldn't beat Efren playing rotation. With the break neutralized in 10ball, Mike probably couldn't beat Efren playing that game either. Do you live under a rock?
Mike had Efren's number in 9-ball tournaments during the 80's when Efren first came here. In the 90's, Efren had surpassed Mike in 9-ball.
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