Which is worse? You decide

sjm said:
Of course, it is A, and the inclusion of choice C is an insult to the intelligence of this forum.

Worse than all of these is the presence of those who a) voluntarily sign the WPA contract, which requires WADA compliance, b) have full access to and knowledge of the WADA list of banned substances, c) violate those guidelines, and d) after they break the rules, don't think those guidelines should apply to them. Anyone unprepared to comply with WADA guidelines should not sign the WPA contract.

Discussion of what WADA should test for can be very constructive. Steps can be taken to encourage WADA to change its guidelines for banned substances. It does seem likely that WADA will make some changes down the road, but until then, players must observe current rules.

A philosophy of "I'll follow the rules I agree with and violate the ones I disagree with" can have serious consequences for an athlete in any sport.

Rubber stamping behavior that might compromise the image of our sport is not just a long-term problem that has been in play for decades in pool but also a disturbing reality here on AZB. No matter how badly a player misbehaves, the apologists always come out in droves here on AZB.

Would it do our sport any good if a dozen top players played while under the influence of weed and paying attendees noticed? No, pool's image would take a small hit. In any sport, those who compete while under the influence of substances are displaying a lack of professionalism. I've seen it happen countless times in my many years around the game, and I've seen players smoking weed in the plain sight of paying customers dozens of times. Pool, a sport with an image problem that it's trying to put behind it, can do without players who play under the influence.
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No other pro sports (other than maybe FIFA in European leagues) apply WADA to their pro leagues because it leads to these types of headaches. Pro sports, including those that are in the Olympics, come up with their own testing rules for pro events because you can't apply Olympic testing protocols to routine pro events every weekend.

I also think your view of image is outdated. Pool's image today is one of grandpas playing at the VFW. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't get young people excited or bring in advertising dollars. Pretending that pool players are Olympians is like "putting whipped cream on a hot dog."
 
kling&allen said:
Pool's image today is one of grandpas playing at the VFW.
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Not with anyone I've ever met. That said, I'm dealing with the image of pro pool, which is certainly not perceived of consisting of grandpas trying to pass the time of day. It is, unfairly but undeniably, perceived as a sport consisting of people who'll try to trick you out of your last dollar.
 
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kling&allen said:
No other pro sports (other than maybe FIFA in European leagues) apply WADA to their pro leagues because it leads to these types of headaches. Pro sports, including those that are in the Olympics, come up with their own testing rules for pro events because you can't apply Olympic testing protocols to routine pro events every weekend.
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I've agreed that the steps necessary to change the rules should be discussed and taken to the extent that is deemed practical. This thread, however, does little to map out or address any of the steps that should be taken to accomplish this. This thread's tone is one of whining. In life, and especially in one's professional life, the rules are the rules, and you live by them or must face the potential consequences.

The need to test for WADA has been agreed to in advance by those who sign the WPA contract, making testing necessary as a means of ensuring compliance with rules agreed to in advance.
 
The ball colour changes bother me as an annoyance but in the grand scheme of things it is a trivial matter. If Matchroom does a good job new fans will accept the new colours and the proponents of the orange 5 will be forgotten over time.

Pool has had a seedy reputation for many decades. Cleaning up the image and presenting the players as true professionals can only help the game. No one is forcing them to do anything, they agreed to the rules whether they like them or not.

Just imagine a televised event with a player bumbling around because they got a little too high. It would be hard for the industry to recover its public image.
 
maha said:
yes agree to the rules and follow them or risk the penalty.
any pro is supposed to be someone to look up to by the general public not by his peers only.
that includes his personal life as well.
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Wrong! A "Pro" is somebody that does this for a living, if you want to worship that person that's your business, but don't expect them to live their life the way YOU think they should - they are merely doing a job.
 
sjm said:
I've agreed that the steps necessary to change the rules should be discussed and taken to the extent that is deemed practical. This thread, however, does little to map out or address any of the steps that should be taken to accomplish this. This thread's tone is one of whining. In life, and especially in one's professional life, the rules are the rules, and you live by them or must face the potential consequences.

The need to test for WADA has been agreed to in advance by those who sign the WPA contract, making testing necessary as a means of ensuring compliance with rules agreed to in advance.
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Agreed here Stu. I have no sympathy for Appleton in this situation. But something is broken in the sport if there are regular problems with losing top players to WPA suspensions (Thorpe, Darren, Gorst, Tkach, Felifova just in the last 6 months or so).
 
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sjm said:
Not with anyone I've ever met. That said, I'm dealing with the image of pro pool, which is certainly not perceived of consisting of grandpas trying to pass the time of day. It is, unfairly but undeniably, perceived as a sport consisting of people who'll try to trick you out of your last dollar.
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But Minnesota Fats was the most popular pool player (probably) ever and he increased participation in the sport. He literally defines the type of person who will try to trick you out of your last dollar. It's that image that always has lead to interest in pool and not dressing people up in tuxedos or pretending that pool will be an Olympic sport.
 
DryFlyTrout said:
I completely understand testing for performance enhancing drugs. I would not consider marijuana a PED.

Testing should be done before, during, and after the event if they are serious about preventing and detecting use. All testing prior to the event proves is everyone was clean when they were allowed to participate.
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i don't think they're testing for weed because of its perceived enhancement of ones performance. they test for booze too because you're not supposed to show up drunk to a WPA event. are these really high (no pun) requirements for a professional sport event?
 
wow really, pool players cant smoke weed?
do they realize the advertising/sponorship money they are pissing away by doing that? i think not
 
There are arguments for promoting the "seedy" side of pool as well as for trying to make pool "respectable" which are obviously opposing directions. To help settle the debate the only data we actually have on what might work best today is to look at the only billiards sport than has seen any real modern day mainstream success in the western world that I can think of which is snooker, and snooker has clearly showcased the respectable side. Another data point to consider is that if one of the goals for the sport or a promoter is to get a big piece of the biggest billiards market there is that everybody is always talking about, the huge asian market, they tend to be pretty socially conservative and would strongly favor respectable and tend to reject seedy.
 
kling&allen said:
But Minnesota Fats was the most popular pool player (probably) ever and he increased participation in the sport. He literally defines the type of person who will try to trick you out of your last dollar. It's that image that always has lead to interest in pool and not dressing people up in tuxedos or pretending that pool will be an Olympic sport.
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No doubt, Minnesota Fats embraced the seedy side of the game, and the image he projected certainly helped popularize the game with amateurs. It didn't last and pool knew both good and lean times during Minnesota Fats' reign as the poster boy for hustling. He saw serious pool as a predatory practice and many bought in but, thankfully, there aren't that many left who see things that way.

Certainly, it is pool's every right to return to the days in which the image of the serious player is that of the hustler. The Color of Money in 1986 took that route and it led to a short-lived, but demonstrable, boost in participation at amateur level. That boost didn't last. At present, nobody investing serious money in pool sees it fit to present the game that way. One can take the stance that this is a mistake, but I certainly don't.

Pro pool has made significant strides forward of late and is paying the bills for more players than ever before. In 2022, the top eighteen on the money list through end of April were all on pace to have $100,000 in prize money by end of year and pool is on a long, but measured path to reaching a new demographic. I say "stay the course" but thanks for sharing your opinion.

PS Tuxedos, with just a few exceptions, were gone from the pro pool scene by the end of the straight pool era. Formal dress hasn't really been used to promote pool for 35 years and is not relevant to this discussion.
 
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kling&allen said:
But Minnesota Fats was the most popular pool player (probably) ever and he increased participation in the sport. He literally defines the type of person who will try to trick you out of your last dollar. It's that image that always has lead to interest in pool and not dressing people up in tuxedos or pretending that pool will be an Olympic sport.
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He died in 1996, several years before the global pool boom.
 
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skogstokig said:
i don't think they're testing for weed because of its perceived enhancement of ones performance. they test for booze too because you're not supposed to show up drunk to a WPA event. are these really high (no pun) requirements for a professional sport event?
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The issue is that pool isn't just testing for drugs, it's using the WADA Olympic protocols which aggravate players because there are no limits on how or when they can be tested. All other pro sports have their own non-WADA testing rules to prevent blow ups. Like maybe a player shouldn't miss warm ups to be tested. Maybe a player shouldn't be tested twice in the same week. Maybe all players should be tested once a year. Maybe a player should have 30 minutes after an event to cool down.

WADA is intended for Olympic events that occur every 4 years and not for weekly events. It's why the NCAA doesn't even apply WADA even though it has very strict drug controls.
 
Swighey said:
He's died in 1996, several years before the global pool boom.
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If by global boom you mean the rise of players in China and the rest of Asia, I agree. Someone in another post had a good comment about marketing to that region, which is a lot different than marketing to people in the US.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
There are arguments for promoting the "seedy" side of pool as well as for trying to make pool "respectable" which are obviously opposing directions. To help settle the debate the only data we actually have on what might work best today is to look at the only billiards sport than has seen any real modern day mainstream success in the western world that I can think of which is snooker, and snooker has clearly showcased the respectable side. Another data point to consider is that if one of the goals for the sport or a promoter is to get a big piece of the biggest billiards market there is that everybody is always talking about, the huge asian market, they tend to be pretty socially conservative and would strongly favor respectable and tend to reject seedy.
Click to expand...

I'm not a snooker expert, but Ronnie was a famous bad boy and tabloid star in his early years, which seems to have helped and not hurt the sport. And snooker's big sponsors are betting sites, which I assume means people like gambling on snooker.

Great point on marketing in Asia though.
 
sjm said:
Of course, it is A, and the inclusion of choice C is an insult to the intelligence of this forum.

Worse than all of these is the presence of those who a) voluntarily sign the WPA contract, which requires WADA compliance, b) have full access to and knowledge of the WADA list of banned substances, c) violate those guidelines, and d) after they break the rules, don't think those guidelines should apply to them. Anyone unprepared to comply with WADA guidelines should not sign the WPA contract.

Discussion of what WADA should test for can be very constructive. Steps can be taken to encourage WADA to change its guidelines for banned substances. It does seem likely that WADA will make some changes down the road, but until then, players must observe current rules.

A philosophy of "I'll follow the rules I agree with and violate the ones I disagree with" can have serious consequences for an athlete in any sport.

Rubber stamping behavior that might compromise the image of our sport is not just a long-term problem that has been in play for decades in pool but also a disturbing reality here on AZB. No matter how badly a player misbehaves, the apologists always come out in droves here on AZB.

Would it do our sport any good if a dozen top players played while under the influence of weed and paying attendees noticed? No, pool's image would take a small hit. In any sport, those who compete while under the influence of substances are displaying a lack of professionalism. I've seen it happen countless times in my many years around the game, and I've seen players smoking weed in the plain sight of paying customers dozens of times. Pool, a sport with an image problem that it's trying to put behind it, can do without players who play under the influence.
Click to expand...
I have always wondered what all was in their contract. Does anyone have a contract they can post? I have wondered if at some time they had a clause stating you could not use the title world champion other than when referring to their events.
 
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