Whiteball - damage?

Poke N Hope

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
The rule (equipment specification, actually) was written wrong. It should have set a particular maximum hardness. I suppose whoever wrote the specification either was trying to let the phenolic tip people still sell their product or didn't understand what he was doing.

I believe that the IPT did not allow phenolic tips in their tournaments.

If in fact the OP is correct and phenolic tips on break sticks damage the cue ball, it is time to revise the equipment specifications and enforce them.

As for rules being malleable, it is important to distinguish between the rules and the regulations (and the equipment specifications). I think that the particular case of tapped racks is not a real deviation from the rules. The rules/regulations intend that all the balls should be touching in the rack. Tapping is the best way known to ensure that quickly and repeatably.

So far as I know, the nine ball was never racked on the spot in an official championship competition.

I have only seen one tournament that the nine ball was racked on the spot and that was at the US Open 4 years ago when Sardo was the rack sponsor and any player making the nine on the break was givien $100.
 

no-sho

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have seen this damage before and the person " people " swore up and down that it was from their Sledgehammer, I told that it wasn't and told them to look for a loose screw or bolt holding the rubber pockets in the corners. Sure enough, 2 loose screws and if you look at the other balls you will probably find the same marks on them too!!!!

no-sho
 

ukpooladdict

JMW
Silver Member
Poke N Hope said:
I have only seen one tournament that the nine ball was racked on the spot and that was at the US Open 4 years ago when Sardo was the rack sponsor and any player making the nine on the break was givien $100.

The Eurotour now play with 9-ball on the spot.

I have owned about 6 measle balls over the last 3-4 years, every single one of them have had the half moon cracks covered in them...the table i play on has no nails showing. I have owned and used a X-breaker, Sledgehammer and BK2 over the last 3-4years.
 

genesis

Salucs pain in the ass
Silver Member
No-SHO

genesis said:
... And also yes, this can come from nails in the pockets, but you could believe me, not in my case. A brand new out of the Box Whiteball, never gone in a pocket, never gone of table, had those dents. So it is ABSOLUTELY sure, that my Phenolic Tip has made those Dents. ( my pockets are screwed with hidden screws)
Well my Tip is normaly rounded, nothin special on my Gulyassy break cue. ...

May you read all that stuff, i know its a lot.

ShootingArts said:
I agree if I understand you correctly. We shouldn't be able to routinely damage cue balls with legal tips.

Hu

Make equipment instead of tips. ,-)
 

Paul Mon

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have the exact same thing happening to my red circle ball. Here's a cut & copy from another thread here about phenolic tips

I use a red circle cue ball at home and when breaking I align the circle so that it is my target point on the cueball. I've been doing this for a long time to try and see where I'm actually striking it on my break shot. I've filled in one half of the red circle with a sharpie so I know by looking at the chalk mark where the cue ball was struck.

Here's the interesting conclusion. I tend to strike the cue ball above center. Additionally, my cue ball has numerous (6 or 7) half circular cracks on its surface. Kind of shaped like this (. They are all the same shape and size, about 2 mm. These crack are only in the vicinity of the red circle. It must be from the phenolic tip.
 

genesis

Salucs pain in the ass
Silver Member
There is no doubt about it, it is coming from the phenolics.
 
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genesis

Salucs pain in the ass
Silver Member
Well today i call the guy in Belgium.

They did not know that Pool-Players are using Phenolic Tipps. :confused: So they discover the sent Whiteball.


...to be continued
 

gulyassy

Custom Cues Since 1986
Silver Member
my phenolic

The phenolic I use is absolutely softer than the cue ball or balls. I have done tests on all the phenolics that are used for the break jumps. There are plenty of harder phenolics that are being used like G 10 that is harder than the cue ball. Most of the copiers of my patented ferrule/tip are using other materials that I would not recommend. I use the softest of the phenolics that are being used, and always have. I know for a fact that many cues coming out of Taiwan are not using my material because it breaks. Most of the cue stick people in the US also use harder material because of the breaking factor. If any banning of the ferrule/tip occurs I must insist that the tests be done and my material must be recognized as a safe material for the equipment. Many of the Sledgehammers in Germany are not mine. I do not know if yours is or not but I have not sent any cues to Germany for the last 3 or 4 years. Many copies are not of my design. I keep a close control on my product and I would never use a material that would damage the equipment.
Mike Gulyassy
 

RoyL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Genesis, be glad you even got a reply from Aramith. I sent them an email months ago, and never heard back.
 

genesis

Salucs pain in the ass
Silver Member
Royl: Sorry, if you send it again, i will also check my Spam Filter. I would reply to every Email.

Mike: Well you can also grind diamond. So you can also defekt a hard Material with a Softer. It is possible that i have not a original gulyassy Tip/Ferule. But i think i also can damage a Whiteball with a original gulyassy. I will try that and inform you, i hope i found a original Tip around my common playfields ,-) . I Have a Original Breakstick and i am quite happy with it. But the dents were discovered around the world so i think it is a basic Problem of EACH Phenolic. What exactly have you tested?
 

gulyassy

Custom Cues Since 1986
Silver Member
genesis said:
Royl: Sorry, if you send it again, i will also check my Spam Filter. I would reply to every Email.

Mike: Well you can also grind diamond. So you can also defekt a hard Material with a Softer. It is possible that i have not a original gulyassy Tip/Ferule. But i think i also can damage a Whiteball with a original gulyassy. I will try that and inform you, i hope i found a original Tip around my common playfields ,-) . I Have a Original Breakstick and i am quite happy with it. But the dents were discovered around the world so i think it is a basic Problem of EACH Phenolic. What exactly have you tested?
I have tested cue balls and all the phenolics that are used for the ferrule/tip. My ferrule/tip is and always was softer than the cue ball. All the phenolics have a hardness including the cue ball. G10 is the hardest phenolic used, harder than the cue ball and mine is softer than the cue ball, as a matter of fact it is several steps softer than the cue ball.
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
genesis said:
There is no doubt about it, it is coming from the phenolics.


I have a old blue circle CB just like you have in the picture with half-moon cracks on it, I never hit it with a phenolic tip, the CB looks horrible, It was made about 10 years ago that's when I bought it and with in a month it had the same dents as your picture some are bigger and deeper some are smaller, I used that CB at home the whole time on a brand new Gold Crown 4. I have also seen some blue circle CB's newer get those marks.

I think they good and bad batches of them, probably when they <cant remember the word> the balls they are different from batch to batch. Look at your 1 ball and see if it has marks, mine does from breaking and some of the stipes do too, on that one set of balls I had this was a terrible problem, I still have that set in storage not mixed up with other balls, I have a set of Arimeth balls that are a year old I bought in Munich-they are well used and the CB only has 2 or 3 half moons in it.

This is why I believe it changes from batch to batch and the newer balls seem harder to me as well to damage. I dont think the tip has anything to do with it at all.
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
gulyassy said:
I have tested cue balls and all the phenolics that are used for the ferrule/tip. My ferrule/tip is and always was softer than the cue ball. All the phenolics have a hardness including the cue ball. G10 is the hardest phenolic used, harder than the cue ball and mine is softer than the cue ball, as a matter of fact it is several steps softer than the cue ball.


I was going to say that too, but I didnt have the facts infront of me but phenolics seem softer than ball resins 8 days a week. That was my instinct telling me that, not scienetifically proven-and by the looks of my spelling who the hell will listen to me.:cool:
 

gulyassy

Custom Cues Since 1986
Silver Member
Fatboy said:
I was going to say that too, but I didnt have the facts infront of me but phenolics seem softer than ball resins 8 days a week. That was my instinct telling me that, not scienetifically proven-and by the looks of my spelling who the hell will listen to me.:cool:[/
You are exactly right. I had the stuff checked out at a lab.
 

genesis

Salucs pain in the ass
Silver Member
So i tried with several Ferules.

Gulyassy phenolic Original Sledgehammer ( "Softer than Std. Phenolic")
Eurowest Advanced power ferule ("more softer than Std. Phenolic")
Aska Black Ferule (phenolic?)
Noname Breaker with Brown ?Phenolic?

I have done it with every Stick. I am able to make dents. So my Theory becomes real. Have you/someone tried it? Still waiting on Saluc - they "discover" ...
 
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Dawgie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Yes. Phenolic tips are illegal and the ban should be enforced.

Banned where, why, and by whom?

I don't see the correlation btw the pheno. tip and the cue ball denting. Think about how hard the cb slams into the head ball in the rack. Let's say the one ball gets hit like crazy over and over again. Does it get damaged? Of course not. How about those extra hard hits sometimes when we're playing around while practicing.

I think something is wrong in the manuf. process of the cue ball.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dawgie said:
Banned where, why, and by whom? ...
By the BCA/WPA at about the time that jump rods started appearing, which was before the current style of jump stick. Here is the current WPA wording:

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..
 

genesis

Salucs pain in the ass
Silver Member
Short update.

The first thing that were discovered: " Normal Ball absolutely - normal manufacturng process "

After several mails and tcalls, i sent a breaktip from a cooperating German manufactor to saluc. More material to discover... :boring2:
But the next right step...

So this incident is present nearly half a year at AZ. Did some "meaningchange" happen? More guys discover those halfmoon dents and mentioned that the Phenolic and co's did that?
 
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