Whitten cases made in china

[JB Cases]

I too would like to know the answers to both of these questions. How is it that you ended up using a Chinese factory to sell American products to American people?

Sung,

The Whittens are not using a Chinese factory to sell American products to Americans. This question of yours is very loaded.

The Long Chan factory has no right to make Whitten branded cases. That is what the Whittens are warning against.

I don't know the details of the contract but I do know that the distributor of Long Chan cases in China has a Whitten section in their catalog. When we contacted this distributor we were told point blank that the cases shown in the catalog were imported from the USA from Whitten. I am fairly sure that this is not the truth and that while they MIGHT have bought a few cases from Whitten I would say that the majority of what they sell as Whitten branded cases are not made by Whitten, nor authorized by them.

Also in the same catalog they have a Justis section. They show Jack's Florida address, his Justis logo, several of the pro-cases he has made and then several of the Justis West cases. NOWHERE in that catalog does it say that the Justis West is made in China, nor does it show the Justis West logo, nor does it outline the deal between Jack Justis and Long Chan.

So the insinuation is that the cases advertised under the Justis logo are all coming from Florida.

This is the issue - blatant counterfeiting and false advertising. Not who has done which deals. Whitten and Justis are both victims here of a corrupt family with no morals whatsoever. This same family has literally stolen around ten million as a conservative estimate from Instroke over the past 15 year since they began ripping off all of my Instroke designs.

If you go into their showroom you will see that they have copied everyone's cases.

8 years ago I threatened to burn their cases at my BCA booth if their USA distributor didn't stop advertising their vinyl Instroke copies as leather. This factory was shipping vinyl Instroke knockoffs into the USA and labeling them as leather. So I was losing sales because dealers and consumers were thinking that they were getting leather cases at half of the price of an Instroke.

Now some people say it's just business and the way the world works. This is true as well but it doesn't make it right or less painful when it happens to you.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I always do my level best not to buy anything made in China.

China is not the problem, the Members of U.S. Senate, and Members U.S. House of Representatives that allowed American Jobs to leave the USA is the problem!!!!

Products that were one made in the USA are now made in Mexico, Central America, Philippines, India, Pakistan, Jordan, and other places were the Labor is CHEEPER, and the ENVIRONMENTAL WACKO can not stop progress with non sense.

The other party to BLAME is U.S. Labor Unions who want unskilled workers paid like Physicians with 12 years of education.

 

[maha]

they have always made knockoffs. but if you sleep with the devil you get what you deserve.

if worried about knockoffs make all of the product in the USA and give a warranty and sell only through authorized dealers. have a serial number that can be verified so anyone buying your equipment should know it is real. if they buy from an unknown they do so at their own risk.

 

[hdgis1]

The real question for our country, is can the American worker find its place in a global economy? Perhaps they can, if as a country we stop demanding as a right $40 dollars an hour and 2 weeks of paid vacation.

Chris

China is not the problem, the Members of U.S. Senate, and Members U.S. House of Representatives that allowed American Jobs to leave the USA is the problem!!!!

Products that were one made in the USA are now made in Mexico, Central America, Philippines, India, Pakistan, Jordan, and other places were the Labor is CHEEPER, and the ENVIRONMENTAL WACKO can not stop progress with non sense.

The other party to BLAME is U.S. Labor Unions who want unskilled workers paid like Physicians with 12 years of education.

 

[JB Cases]

they have always made knockoffs. but if you sleep with the devil you get what you deserve.

if worried about knockoffs make all of the product in the USA and give a warranty and sell only through authorized dealers. have a serial number that can be verified so anyone buying your equipment should know it is real. if they buy from an unknown they do so at their own risk.

And this stops knockoffs from happening how exactly?

You do understand that companies EVERYWHERE, in the USA, China, Canada, etc.... buy products from their competitors to tear apart and copy what they want don't you?

You make it sound so easy. Don't you know that there are handbag forums where people are busy checking the serial numbers of handbags they bought to see if it's real. Serial numbers can be faked. Holograms can be faked, watermarks can be faked. Short of watching Gepetto make your shoes the average consumer has no real way of knowing that the product that they are getting is real - especially in an industry like ours.

How is the average consumer supposed to verify who is an authorized retailer? How is the consumer then supposed to verify that the goods being sold in the shop are all real even if it's an authorized retailer?

This is not something that is easy to fix and it's something that fortune 500 companies deal with daily.

You think that there aren't a lot of fakes making their way to store shelves? You'd be surprised.

Companies like Apple spend tens of millions policing the retail market to keep knockoffs out of it.

I find this attitude to be like saying that the girl who got raped deserved it because she wore a min-skirt.

 

[VonRhett]

how can they do this? i mean you have a copyright?

Of course they do - which only prevents a US company from making a Whitten case, or serious penalties, fines, and cease & desist orders if they do. After going to court and getting a favorable ruling and stay order issued. The entire burden of proof lies with the Copyright holder, not the copier. "Innocent until" and all that.

"Copyright" is a set of protections under US Law. China doesn't follow or adhere to our laws anymore than we do theirs.

(There are "Int'l Copyright Laws" as anyone who's watched a DVD knows. Very rare and very expensive. Basically a royalty machine for the F1000)

What Dan W can do is prevent any large quantity of the KNOCK OFFS from coming into the US. This is a relatively simple process that a Customs Broker can assist with or he could even file with his local Customs Office.

But even that only stops them if they're listed on the BOL as "Whitten", or if a Customs Inspector sees them and looks it up.

500 cases take very little room in a 40-ft container but that would be more than enough to flood the market, esp Dealers, eBay, etc.

Perhaps a COA with Serial # with each real Whitten?

-von

 

[thrash attack]

I would recomend changing the title so it doesn't sound like an announcment that you've moved operations to china. Not everyone reads the thread but will see the title and might think twice about purchasing your product.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

Fair enough..... I think I understand.... Thank you John...... There is a great deal some of us who don't deal with these kinds of operations and especially having no experience with a Chinese factory don't get.....

Sung,

The Whittens are not using a Chinese factory to sell American products to Americans. This question of yours is very loaded.

The Long Chan factory has no right to make Whitten branded cases. That is what the Whittens are warning against.

I don't know the details of the contract but I do know that the distributor of Long Chan cases in China has a Whitten section in their catalog. When we contacted this distributor we were told point blank that the cases shown in the catalog were imported from the USA from Whitten. I am fairly sure that this is not the truth and that while they MIGHT have bought a few cases from Whitten I would say that the majority of what they sell as Whitten branded cases are not made by Whitten, nor authorized by them.

Also in the same catalog they have a Justis section. They show Jack's Florida address, his Justis logo, several of the pro-cases he has made and then several of the Justis West cases. NOWHERE in that catalog does it say that the Justis West is made in China, nor does it show the Justis West logo, nor does it outline the deal between Jack Justis and Long Chan.

So the insinuation is that the cases advertised under the Justis logo are all coming from Florida.

This is the issue - blatant counterfeiting and false advertising. Not who has done which deals. Whitten and Justis are both victims here of a corrupt family with no morals whatsoever. This same family has literally stolen around ten million as a conservative estimate from Instroke over the past 15 year since they began ripping off all of my Instroke designs.

If you go into their showroom you will see that they have copied everyone's cases.

8 years ago I threatened to burn their cases at my BCA booth if their USA distributor didn't stop advertising their vinyl Instroke copies as leather. This factory was shipping vinyl Instroke knockoffs into the USA and labeling them as leather. So I was losing sales because dealers and consumers were thinking that they were getting leather cases at half of the price of an Instroke.

Now some people say it's just business and the way the world works. This is true as well but it doesn't make it right or less painful when it happens to you.

 

[JB Cases]

Of course they do - which only prevents a US company from making a Whitten case, or serious penalties, fines, and cease & desist orders if they do. After going to court and getting a favorable ruling and stay order issued. The entire burden of proof lies with the Copyright holder, not the copier. "Innocent until" and all that.

"Copyright" is a set of protections under US Law. China doesn't follow or adhere to our laws anymore than we do theirs.

(There are "Int'l Copyright Laws" as anyone who's watched a DVD knows. Very rare and very expensive. Basically a royalty machine for the F1000)

What Dan W can do is prevent any large quantity of the KNOCK OFFS from coming into the US. This is a relatively simple process that a Customs Broker can assist with or he could even file with his local Customs Office.

But even that only stops them if they're listed on the BOL as "Whitten", or if a Customs Inspector sees them and looks it up.

500 cases take very little room in a 40-ft container but that would be more than enough to flood the market, esp Dealers, eBay, etc.

Perhaps a COA with Serial # with each real Whitten?

-von

Exactly. Almost all of the burden of policing and protecting one's intellectual property, copyrights, trademarks, and patents falls on the person who owns the IP. And for the little guy it's an expensive process that often finds one chasing ghosts.

Unfortunately in most situations IP theft is not treated as a criminal offense but instead is a civil dispute. If IP theft were treated as a criminal offense then I predict that there would be a lot less of it.

We need to distinguish from knockoffs and counterfeit goods. Knockoffs are product which LOOK like other products but are not BRANDED like the official products. Counterfeits are products which are BRANDED with a trademark that does not belong to the maker of the product. A product does not have to be an exact copy to be a counterfeit. For example a case which looks like an Instroke but has the Whitten brand on it would be an Instroke knockoff and also a Whitten counterfeit.

As most of you know knockoffs are prevalent in the marketplace. On this forum several members have brazenly sold knockoffs off Whitten, Instroke and others with nearly identical designs to the originals. Neither Instroke nor Whitten can do anything about these products entering the USA.

What Whitten is warning everyone of is to beware of sellers from outside the USA who might try to sell a "Whitten" case because that case may not in fact be a real Whitten.

What's the difference you ask? And why should I care?

Well lets forget the altruistic Whitten is the little guy, family business, it's nice to support them idea....

You should care because when someone is selling a counterfeit Whitten no one knows how it was made. You don't know what sort of liner was used, what kind of tubes, how well the latches and zippers were done, whether color will bleed on your cue, whether it's too tight for your cue etc... Think about it, would you take pills from a source that you weren't sure of? So why would you pay hundreds and stick your precious cue into a hole of questionable origin?

If you want a Whitten then go to the source or make damn sure the seller can authenticate the source of his/her items.

Whitten can't really do a damn thing other than to warn people about these counterfeit cases. You consumers have a little bit more power to eradicate them from the market by making life hard on any seller found peddling them.

 

[JB Cases]

What is the difference? Can someone post pics of the real Whitten and the knock off ones, so that consumers may be aware. Thanks

This is a catch-22 because as soon as Whitten publishes details of how to spot fakes then the manufacturer will know what he is doing wrong and will correct it.

For anyone wanting to know then best is to call Whitten and ask them directly.

 

[mdavis228]

And the deals just keep coming on FleaBay! Treacherous environment for those with only enough sparsely sought knowledge to identify names, and a primary desire to get a dollar for a dime. I hear these sorts of folks (good folks - don't get me wrong) frequently around local leagues talking about "collecting" cues, and spouting names like Meucci (in the near time, off the shelf sense). They often seem ripe for these predators. One of the main reasons I tell people about AZ, and suggest that they join, is the opportunity to gain credible insight.

 

[jay helfert]

This is a catch-22 because as soon as Whitten publishes details of how to spot fakes then the manufacturer will know what he is doing wrong and will correct it.

For anyone wanting to know then best is to call Whitten and ask them directly.

Basically, this Long Chen company has become the "unauthorized" manufacturer and dealer for "Whitten" cases in Asia, and no one can do anything about it. Sounds like they just wanted to "deal" with Whitten long enough to get hold of some of their cases, the better to copy them.

I've been telling Greg Sullivan for a long time now, that if he sends any tables over there, they will be knocking them off within the year. That's how that market works. I saw knock-off Brunswick Metros (with no name on them) in a filipino pool hall on my recent trip there. They looked the same, just somehow lacking a little in quality. Probably cheaper rails/rubber and cheaper construction. I didn't really get underneath and examine them that closely. I was busy trying to make a ball and win some lunch money. :wink:

 

[Whitten]

AZ'ers,

Thank you for your replies on this issue. I would first like to make it very clear that anyone that has ever ordered a case from Whitten Cases has received an authentic Whitten Case made by the Whitten Family. We have NEVER sold a Whitten Case made by anyone other than our family.

Originally our thought was to provide a more affordable Whitten case (made in China) with our supervision and quality standards. We would at the same time continue “business as usual” in our Florida facility. As previously stated, due to quality and communication problems, our business relationship/contract ended in June of 2009. We have never sold any of our cases to Long Chen or any dealer/distributor in China.

Copy cases have been produced over the last 15 years. It is the nature of the beast. I personally look at it as a form of flattery. Although, it is a little different when they start using our name and logo.

If you have a question about the authenticity of a particular case, call and we can discuss it.

Again, I would like to make it very clear that the ONLY cases ever sold by myself or my father were made by The Whitten Family.

Thank you for listening,

Joe Whitten

 

[JB Cases]

Basically, this Long Chen company has become the "unauthorized" manufacturer and dealer for "Whitten" cases in Asia, and no one can do anything about it. Sounds like they just wanted to "deal" with Whitten long enough to get hold of some of their cases, the better to copy them.

I've been telling Greg Sullivan for a long time now, that if he sends any tables over there, they will be knocking them off within the year. That's how that market works. I saw knock-off Brunswick Metros (with no name on them) in a filipino pool hall on my recent trip there. They looked the same, just somehow lacking a little in quality. Probably cheaper rails/rubber and cheaper construction. I didn't really get underneath and examine them that closely. I was busy trying to make a ball and win some lunch money. :wink:

I hear you. I felt sorry for Brunswick at the China Billiard expo two weeks ago. They had three tables on display and a tiny booth while EVERY other booth there was at least twice as big to ten times as large and had a Brunswick knockoff on a pedestal as the flagship table. It was brutal.

In the pool rooms here most will have one or two Brunswicks that they charge $5 or more per hour to play on and the other 40 tables will be dead nuts knockoffs.

Predator really gets it here. I have seen so many cheap cues labeled as Predator that it's not even funny. In fact Karim told me he saw a BK3 on sale at the expo and Predator doesn't even make a BK3.

China has a long long way to go in this regard. Some domestic companies here seem to be successful at protecting their brands and I never see counterfeit or knockoffs of their products. I don't really want to know what measures they are taking to prevent being knocked off.

 

[nksmfamjp]

So, the issue has many fronts. One is we, as customers, will buy what we want at the lowest possible price. That used to encourage competition to produce a certain spec at the best price. Great! Now, it has progressed to cheating by retailers, distributers and even manufacturers.

As customers, we want to blame China..., but some people in China, JB and his team work hard to make a good original product. They get rewarded by being able to sell a full price product.

If China is the problem, it is the state which encourages ignoring intelectual property rights. The combined with the rest of the world not centuring the Chinese government. We need to address this ASAP as a govnmnt!

My company does business in China. We take a careful approach and make mostly local product there. Still, I hate it. We also compete there with foriegn made product, so the labor rate isn't an end all be all advantage. To do business there, painstaking effort must be made to determine how to hold your ip, but still make product there. If your ip is in the making of your product or readily visible, China is a bad place to shift production. If your ip is more hidden, internal to the product, or internal to your business process, it will be less stealable. These things must be considered.
Even America has ip theft problems...what if you steal ip with no clear owner like Apple using ip created in the Linux code?

The solution is economic punishment of government officials who allow/encourage ip theft. We continue to do business with China, so that means we as Americans have accepted some ip theft as ok.

All companies tear down competitor product. If I am tearing a competitor product down looking for something, it is that I'm looking for inspiration to design something in the spirit of my company. I hope that makes sense. We never steal others technology because you can never fully understand it. In addition, we consider other patents and avoid them as part of the process. Direct ip theft is always done with lack of full knowledge and usually creates crap, like trenchcoat Rolexes!

So, again I ask, what is the contract deal? If you try to give your ip to a cheap labor source to make discount product to be sold at a high margin, you kind of get what you deserve. I've been around long enough to know it probably is more complicated than that.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

The real question for our country, is can the American worker find its place in a global economy? Perhaps they can, if as a country we stop demanding as a right $40 dollars an hour and 2 weeks of paid vacation.

Chris

Well my other half has been a NURSE since 68, she is not making $40.00/Hour! If she was $40.00/Hour would be a cost to the employeer of $55.00-$60.00/Hour BENEFITS.

Let take UNIONS, and Parity. You have a guy working in GM PLANT, all he does is Mounts Tire on Wheels, he gets $30.00/HR, and a Benefit Package that cost GM about $48.00/HR. Out side in Joe’s Tire Shop we got a guy mounting tires on wheels for $10.00/Hr. What is the value of the JOB REALLY.

 

[Jack Justis]

I don't know the details of the contract but I do know that the distributor of Long Chan cases in China has a Whitten section in their catalog. When we contacted this distributor we were told point blank that the cases shown in the catalog were imported from the USA from Whitten. I am fairly sure that this is not the truth and that while they MIGHT have bought a few cases from Whitten I would say that the majority of what they sell as Whitten branded cases are not made by Whitten, nor authorized by them.

Also in the same catalog they have a Justis section. They show Jack's Florida address, his Justis logo, several of the pro-cases he has made and then several of the Justis West cases. NOWHERE in that catalog does it say that the Justis West is made in China, nor does it show the Justis West logo, nor does it outline the deal between Jack Justis and Long Chan.

So the insinuation is that the cases advertised under the Justis logo are all coming from Florida.

Hi John,

You have mentioned many times about this distributor for Long Chan that has information about our cases. Would you mind giving me the name of the distributor or at least tell me when I can go and see this first hand.

Thanks

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I've been telling Greg Sullivan for a long time now, that if he sends any tables over there, they will be knocking them off within the year. That's how that market works. I saw knock-off Brunswick Metros (with no name on them) in a filipino pool hall on my recent trip there. They looked the same, just somehow lacking a little in quality. Probably cheaper rails/rubber and cheaper construction. I didn't really get underneath and examine them that closely. I was busy trying to make a ball and win some lunch money. :wink:

Jay if Greg's Table become the next target I am sure they will buy one, ship it to Asia, and they knock offs will get built.

 

[JB Cases]

Hi John,

You have mentioned many times about this distributor for Long Chan that has information about our cases. Would you mind giving me the name of the distributor or at least tell me when I can go and see this first hand.

Thanks

Sure. I thought I sent you the information last year as well. I know I sent you a couple links to a TaoBao listing where the seller was implying that the Justis "West" cases were made in the USA.

These are images taken from the dealer's catalog. The company name is JueShi. The website listed is www.jueshitq.com - I can't get it to come up under that though so I will have Karen search for it tomorrow.

P.S. I misspoke in an earlier post where I said that the catalog showed your Florida address. It doesn't but I think that the text says or implies made in Florida or made in USA. I will get Karen to translate it properly tomorrow.

 

[Da Bank]

China is not the problem, the Members of U.S. Senate, and Members U.S. House of Representatives that allowed American Jobs to leave the USA is the problem!!!!

Products that were one made in the USA are now made in Mexico, Central America, Philippines, India, Pakistan, Jordan, and other places were the Labor is CHEEPER, and the ENVIRONMENTAL WACKO can not stop progress with non sense.

The other party to BLAME is U.S. Labor Unions who want unskilled workers paid like Physicians with 12 years of education.

get a grip buddy. lol!

Most of the things you use are not made in this country... we couldn't possibly manufacture everything for ourselves. it's just not possible. The reason businesses have been able to grow and innovate is because they can outsource and they can get goods for cheaper from countries with cheaper labor. This is not the government's fault, it's no one's fault. It's called globalization and it's a GOOD THING.

Unfortunately, you will have instances like this with Whitten and it is very hard to control. It happens. It's unfortunate and it's not a good thing, the world would be better if it didn't happen. But I'd much rather these types of things happen on occasion than the US trying to keep everything we do only in the US. We'd be 20 years behind where we are now if we did that.

Use your brain. It's there for a reason. :thumbup: