but are/were able to enter a full field tournament and win it?
Who are some players who were/are not naturally gifted
- Thread starter Positively Ralf
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And the conversation immediately shifts to a discussion on the definition of “naturally gifted”
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This has been discussed quite a few times.
Ansewr- past a certain pointt, natural ability and learned ability become blended.
Nobody who hasn't learned how to play well enough to win a tournament has ever win a tournament.
On what level are you referring to? IMO, nobody gets to the pro level without having a healthy amount of natural pool talent - at least compared to the average amateur player. Some may have started playing seriously later in their life than others, but all of them have a natural gift for the game - granted, some more than others.
Kim Jong Un?
I remember an interview with the late Tony Ellin, or so I think it was Tony Ellin. He said he always felt like most pro players were born with a natural ability to become great players. He then said he felt like he lacked this natural ability, and that's why he he had to constantly work on his game upbove and beyond the practice habits of a typical pro player.
As the other posts, what would be a cut off for gifted or not? Is someone gifted that started late and got to pro level in a few years? Or started when they were 10 and were at pro level at 18? I think Scott Frost started playing later than most other players his level. But then players like Shane and Neils work very hard at their game, are they not gifted but just work harder? Or are they both? Shane started early and has a family of pool players around him, I think Neils quite a few years later. There is a 16 yr old kid in my area that is an A player now but he plays a lot, is he gifted or just dedicated?
I like to think of natural ability/talent as setting the limit to how good you can become. Then how good you actually become depends on many factors, not the least of which is how much work you put into it.
I would add that IMO, players that started playing seriously later in life, like Weanie Beanie (Bill Staton) and still made it to pro level, likely posessed an even a higher level of natural talent in order to overcome their late start.
I think also a part of getting good is luck in when you start learning. One player may have found a stance and arm/eye/head, etc.. alignment that made it possible to see the aiming line better and to deliver the cue truer than another person that may have started trying out a lot of things and never got a natural stance that worked perfectly for them. The second person may even be playing for years longer but will not catch up to the person that happened to fall into his correct stance.
In pool I’m not sure natural talent ever matters. What professional exists that didn’t get there by playing 8-10 hours a day for months/years at some point in their life? Kids get there best because they have the time and learning brains. Adults usually struggle with time. Much beyond that is more about intelligent use of time, exposure to advice, and falling out of bad habits. Where one person sees natural talent, I mostly see people born into a fertile environment and a stronger drive for excellence. Ambition and luck.
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Good points. Environment plays a big part. But I believe some people are born with the ability to develop better hand-eye-coordination skills than the average person, just as some are born with a higher IQ and a greater ability to learn more than others.
It's not limited to playing pool, but wide spread across all activities or sports that require skill development. These types of people do not need to work as hard on developing the skills because their brains are wired differently, like the wiring of a genius that has the ability to learn and exceed well beyond average with minimal effort or study time.
Having given guitar lessons and drum lessons for a few years, I've seen a few students that pick it up like they practice 24-7. But they don't. They practice no more, and often less, than the average student moving at a normal learning pace. So I do believe a person can be born with a certain advantage to learning and mastering pool, or baseball, or tennis, or golf, or music, etc....
I get that. I have a feeling that can get you a head start. But you’re not going to play like Santana without putting some serious hours in at some point. And you’re not winning any notable tournaments without the same. A newbie can start day one with a smooth stroke, good follow-through and tight aim but it’ll take time before they start playing proper patterns and controlling the snowball accurately. And they’re not beating Niels Feijen without putting in some hard hours. Perhaps less hours than Niels does but the scope of what they will need to dedicate almost trivializes that difference.
"you’re not going to play like Santana without putting some serious hours in at some point"
funny that santana was brought up here. guy i knew was one of those shredder dudes that could do those al dimeola/yngwie malsteen arpeggio sweeps like it was nothing. he attended the guitar institute of technology, which is a music school a lot of shredders attended during the 80's.
anyway, we were listening to the radio and a santana song was on. dude goes, "oh just listen to santana try to play the guitar." he even said that about g.e. smith from saturday night live as well.
funny that santana was brought up here. guy i knew was one of those shredder dudes that could do those al dimeola/yngwie malsteen arpeggio sweeps like it was nothing. he attended the guitar institute of technology, which is a music school a lot of shredders attended during the 80's.
anyway, we were listening to the radio and a santana song was on. dude goes, "oh just listen to santana try to play the guitar." he even said that about g.e. smith from saturday night live as well.
All I meant is that a player can naturally be wired in a manner that makes them more likely to reach a very high degree of skill in a fraction of the time it would take the average person to reach the same skill level, if ever.
Great example: The bass player in both of the bands I'm playing with is a genius. Seriously. For several years his job entailed designing cooling systems for rockets or something like that. He lived in Ohio then. He didn't like the work and decided he wanted to be a surgeon, so he went back to school for a few years and then moved back to West Virginia where he's now an orthopedic surgeon.
Back when he was in high school he joined the marching band and wanted to play the snare drum. I was the drum instructor, and I said no. I told the band direrctor that there was no way a beginning snare drummer could play the pieces I was writing and teaching. I mean, the 3 senior snare drummers at that tiime were each All-State players with years of experience and countless hours of practice between them. But I wasn't the boss, so I had to give the kid a chance. I asked if he played any instruments and he said piano.
I gave the kid a handful of sheetmusic, showed him how to hold the sticks, and then gave him a good one hour lesson every Saturday (he lived up the street from me and was my best friend's younger brother). Within a month he could play anything the other 3 snare drummers could play. After hearing/watching him play the piano one day after our drum lesson, I wasn't too surprised at his remarkable progress with the snare. That's just how he is wired. And he's a hell of a guy and great friend.
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All I meant is that a player can naturally be wired in a manner that makes them more likely to reach a very high degree of skill in a fraction of the time it would take the average person to reach the same skill level, if ever.
Great example: The bass player in both of the bands I'm playing with is a genius. Seriously. For several years his job entailed designing cooling systems for rockets or something like that. He lived in Ohio then. He didn't like the work and decided he wanted to be a surgeon, so he went back to school for a few years and then moved back to West Virginia where he's now an orthopedic surgeon.
Back when he was in high school he joined the marching band and wanted to play the snare drum. I was the drum instructor, and I said no. I told the band direrctor that there was no way a beginning snare drummer could play the pieces I was writing and teaching. I mean, the 3 senior snare drummers at that tiime were each All-State players with years of experience and countless hours of practice between them. But I wasn't the boss, so I had to give the kid a chance. I asked if he played any instruments and he said piano.
I gave the kid a handful of sheetmusic, showed him how to hold the sticks, and then gave him a good one hour lesson every Saturday (he lived up the street from me and was my best friend's younger brother). Within a month he could play anything the other 3 snare drummers could play. After hearing/watching him play the piano one day after our drum lesson, I wasn't too surprised at his remarkable progress with the snare. That's just how he is wired.
I have a feeling we aren’t saying anything contradictory but are emphasizing different aspects. In that I do see your point and there is no doubt that some people leap into things with a crazy predilection. Stupid crazy. I don’t think that initial pace is a trajectory for their development throughout their entire career but it certainly is a wild advantage to get out the gates like that.
I think you're right. Only it doesn't take a full leap or crazy initial attack for some people to outpace the pack when it comes to learning. So we're not exactly born with any natural talents -- we are born with the ability to learn more efficiently than others, so that talents and skills come more easily. And being raised in an environment that promotes above average learning can definitely be a bonus too.
I'd like to go on record as saying I am the least naturally gifted person to ever pick up a cue and stick with it this long. No hand eye coordination, noncalculating mind, takes 100% effort every time to make a ball, no hangers for me, I can, and have, missed every possible shot on the table,lol.
Seriously. I heard someone say a local player had zero talent once and he had won DCC 9 ball at one point in his career. No talent just all work. I'm not expert but is that even possible?
Seriously. I heard someone say a local player had zero talent once and he had won DCC 9 ball at one point in his career. No talent just all work. I'm not expert but is that even possible?