Who are the Best "Vertical" Players, past & presten?

[Straightpool_99]

People on the internet keep saying the name Buddy Hall when asked who stays on the vertical center or uses just a little english. Enough people say it, it must be true...

But I've watched Buddy Hall in person as much as anyone, and since I'm not staking him, betting on or against him, or playing him, I am/was always watching his stroke mechanics, his patterns, and where he hit the cueball. And I emphasize, I've watched him live countless of hours over the years at bar table tournaments in TN, the US Open 9-ball, and the Derby City Classic.

My observations are that Buddy Hall uses as much extreme english as anyone who's ever played the game. A case can be made that he is a pioneer of the use of extreme english to make his patterns simpler (yes, I said simpler).

He teaches the Clock System, a system that shows how to use every part of the cueball.

He was on ESPN (it's on Youtube) where the announcer remarked just how far off center he was shooting on so many shots. In his post-match interview, he said matter-of-factly that (paraphrase) you have to be able to all parts of the cueball to be able to play this game.

For me, Buddy Hall has been the icon that I first viewed as shooting as far away from center was humanly possible in order to make the position so easy.

So, my simple question is: why do so many people have a different observation. Surely, he doesn't switch to extreme english just for me (as shown on any ESPN match of his). Do you think he switched to center ball just for everyone else on the internet? Doesn't make sense.

My theory is that he always made it look so easy that players just assumed he must be hitting closer to center. He just isn't/wasn.t. That's reality by every method of real observation, including recorded actual matches (instead of some kind of teaching clinic).

Freddie <~~~ loves reality

Thank God someone on this forum has a working set of eyes. I was worried for a moment there. I agree with everything you said.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Good players would never beat anyone if they used center ball all the time.

And there it is. Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[pocketsplitter]

People on the internet keep saying the name Buddy Hall when asked who stays on the vertical center or uses just a little english. Enough people say it, it must be true...



But I've watched Buddy Hall in person as much as anyone, and since I'm not staking him, betting on or against him, or playing him, I am/was always watching his stroke mechanics, his patterns, and where he hit the cueball. And I emphasize, I've watched him live countless of hours over the years at bar table tournaments in TN, the US Open 9-ball, and the Derby City Classic.



My observations are that Buddy Hall uses as much extreme english as anyone who's ever played the game. A case can be made that he is a pioneer of the use of extreme english to make his patterns simpler (yes, I said simpler).



He teaches the Clock System, a system that shows how to use every part of the cueball.



He was on ESPN (it's on Youtube) where the announcer remarked just how far off center he was shooting on so many shots. In his post-match interview, he said matter-of-factly that (paraphrase) you have to be able to all parts of the cueball to be able to play this game.



For me, Buddy Hall has been the icon that I first viewed as shooting as far away from center was humanly possible in order to make the position so easy.



So, my simple question is: why do so many people have a different observation. Surely, he doesn't switch to extreme english just for me (as shown on any ESPN match of his). Do you think he switched to center ball just for everyone else on the internet? Doesn't make sense.



My theory is that he always made it look so easy that players just assumed he must be hitting closer to center. He just isn't/wasn.t. That's reality by every method of real observation, including recorded actual matches (instead of some kind of teaching clinic).



Freddie <~~~ loves reality

I completely agree with your observation of buddy's game even though I've never witnessed his game in person. I think a lot of ppl confuse his principle of a simple game (i.e. Don't make position if you have position) with only using center ball. These are two entirely different concepts and many times the use of English simplifies the pattern.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[chevybob20]

People on the internet keep saying the name Buddy Hall when asked who stays on the vertical center or uses just a little english. Enough people say it, it must be true...

But I've watched Buddy Hall in person as much as anyone, and since I'm not staking him, betting on or against him, or playing him, I am/was always watching his stroke mechanics, his patterns, and where he hit the cueball. And I emphasize, I've watched him live countless of hours over the years at bar table tournaments in TN, the US Open 9-ball, and the Derby City Classic.

My observations are that Buddy Hall uses as much extreme english as anyone who's ever played the game. A case can be made that he is a pioneer of the use of extreme english to make his patterns simpler (yes, I said simpler).

He teaches the Clock System, a system that shows how to use every part of the cueball.

He was on ESPN (it's on Youtube) where the announcer remarked just how far off center he was shooting on so many shots. In his post-match interview, he said matter-of-factly that (paraphrase) you have to be able to all parts of the cueball to be able to play this game.

For me, Buddy Hall has been the icon that I first viewed as shooting as far away from center was humanly possible in order to make the position so easy.

So, my simple question is: why do so many people have a different observation. Surely, he doesn't switch to extreme english just for me (as shown on any ESPN match of his). Do you think he switched to center ball just for everyone else on the internet? Doesn't make sense.

My theory is that he always made it look so easy that players just assumed he must be hitting closer to center. He just isn't/wasn.t. That's reality by every method of real observation, including recorded actual matches (instead of some kind of teaching clinic).

Freddie <~~~ loves reality

Thanks Freddie. I thought that I was stuck in the twilight zone for a moment.

To answer the OP's questions, nobody shoots center ball only unless they aspire to top out at APA 3 :wink: and definitely no champion ever.

You've got to spin it to win it.

 

[pt109]

thats most snooker pros

Eddy Charlton, one of Australia's best all-round athletes, played almost exclusively
center ball.
Joe Davis felt that he never won a world snooker title because of his reluctance to use
side spin.

Side spin complicates a shot....but it allows you to run a table without making a hard shot.
...snooker used to be played on very heavy cloth, so side spin was used more sparingly...
...but it was used.....now they are playing at the highest level on much faster cloth...
....and they are using more spin....and running many more centuries.

If you can't spin, you can't win.

 

[Cornerman]

Eddy Charlton, one of Australia's best all-round athletes, played almost exclusively
center ball.
Joe Davis felt that he never won a world snooker title because of his reluctance to use
side spin.

Side spin complicates a shot....but it allows you to run a table without making a hard shot.
...snooker used to be played on very heavy cloth, so side spin was used more sparingly...
...but it was used.....now they are playing at the highest level on much faster cloth...
....and they are using more spin....and running many more centuries.

If you can't spin, you can't win.

Thanks again for the touch of reality, PT.

Just in watching this year's World Championship, I noted and snapshot(ted?) a few obvious times when Mark Selby used a good about of outside english even on a slight cut shot. No cushions were involved, so he was just doing the ol' helping english approach that many of us pool players group up doing.

I'm wondering if I increased my use of english when I realized how much easier it makes the game, or did I increase it when the big switch from Mali and other weighted cloth made way for Simonis and fast, worsted cloth.

Freddie <~~~ didn't win a world championship because of english...

 

[GideonF]

Watching Morra, I notice the cue is almost under his left ear. Strange way to play.

His vision centre is under his left eye (or maybe even ear - look where Earl's cue is when he shoots). When John shoots left-handed, he looks like a conventional player with the cue under his left eye (or so).

Someone mentioned on here that the Miz and Mike S (the two greatest "lefties" in our sport, IMO) were actually right-handed in their normal lives and just shot left. I have often wondered whether their vision centres were under their left eye and that's why they ended up playing with their "wrong" hand.

 

[pt109]

His vision centre is under his left eye (or maybe even ear - look where Earl's cue is when he shoots). When John shoots left-handed, he looks like a conventional player with the cue under his left eye (or so).

Someone mentioned on here that the Miz and Mike S (the two greatest "lefties" in our sport, IMO) were actually right-handed in their normal lives and just shot left. I have often wondered whether their vision centres were under their left eye and that's why they ended up playing with their "wrong" hand.

I think it's time to remind all you AZers that opposite eye is NOT a handicap...
...Joe Davis, Willie Mosconi, and Canada's George Chenier were opposite eyed.
....they all seemed to play pretty well.

It's John Morra's habit of being very low on the cue that is giving him problems...
....neck and shoulder pain.
..told him to take a page out of his fathere's book...raise his head off the cue....
...John's father still plays excellent for his age.

It's a big change for John....may take some time to adjust...but it's worth it...
...I feel there's a world title waiting.......

 

[HawaiianEye]

If you are using TOI, you are rarely hitting center ball.

 

[Ekojasiloop]

People on the internet keep saying the name Buddy Hall when asked who stays on the vertical center or uses just a little english. Enough people say it, it must be true...

But I've watched Buddy Hall in person as much as anyone, and since I'm not staking him, betting on or against him, or playing him, I am/was always watching his stroke mechanics, his patterns, and where he hit the cueball. And I emphasize, I've watched him live countless of hours over the years at bar table tournaments in TN, the US Open 9-ball, and the Derby City Classic.

My observations are that Buddy Hall uses as much extreme english as anyone who's ever played the game. A case can be made that he is a pioneer of the use of extreme english to make his patterns simpler (yes, I said simpler).

He teaches the Clock System, a system that shows how to use every part of the cueball.

He was on ESPN (it's on Youtube) where the announcer remarked just how far off center he was shooting on so many shots. In his post-match interview, he said matter-of-factly that (paraphrase) you have to be able to all parts of the cueball to be able to play this game.

For me, Buddy Hall has been the icon that I first viewed as shooting as far away from center was humanly possible in order to make the position so easy.

So, my simple question is: why do so many people have a different observation. Surely, he doesn't switch to extreme english just for me (as shown on any ESPN match of his). Do you think he switched to center ball just for everyone else on the internet? Doesn't make sense.

My theory is that he always made it look so easy that players just assumed he must be hitting closer to center. He just isn't/wasn.t. That's reality by every method of real observation, including recorded actual matches (instead of some kind of teaching clinic).

Freddie <~~~ loves reality

He calls English "helping English" sometimes, referring to the fact that the English itself helps make the ball. So yeah I'd agree.

 

[chevybob20]

I think it's time to remind all you AZers that opposite eye is NOT a handicap...
...Joe Davis, Willie Mosconi, and Canada's George Chenier were opposite eyed.
....they all seemed to play pretty well.

It's John Morra's habit of being very low on the cue that is giving him problems...
....neck and shoulder pain.
..told him to take a page out of his fathere's book...raise his head off the cue....
...John's father still plays excellent for his age.

It's a big change for John....may take some time to adjust...but it's worth it...
...I feel there's a world title waiting.......

Thanks for that info. I noticed the change but didn't know why. The first time that I watched him shoot was at the DCC. He would lift his head up a little before he shot because he was too low to stroke through the shot. Stan Shuffett was the one who pointed it out after I made the comment about him lifting up.

 

[Cornerman]

His vision centre is under his left eye (or maybe even ear - look where Earl's cue is when he shoots). When John shoots left-handed, he looks like a conventional player with the cue under his left eye (or so).

Someone mentioned on here that the Miz and Mike S (the two greatest "lefties" in our sport, IMO) were actually right-handed in their normal lives and just shot left. I have often wondered whether their vision centres were under their left eye and that's why they ended up playing with their "wrong" hand.

It seems like more players are cross dominant.

Mosconi
Ciseero
Buddy
On and on....

 

[johnnysd]

One player that has not been mentioned that did use primarily center axis shots, so center ball, center top and center bottom, was Jay Swanson. When I was learning from him, he would always admonish me to not spin the ball around the table so much. He certainly used English when needed, but he relied on angles and not using english as much as any player I have personally known. Not sure how much video there even is of Jay. I couldn't find any on YouTube.

 

[maha]

top players can use whatever is needed to get the best results. weaker players should and need to get their position more often by using little english or none and finding the best pattern. this will also improve their game as they wont be missing so often, and will learn how the cue ball really works.

old time pool players used as little as they could. but often had to use outside to combat the throw of the balls on cut shots as balls were never polished or cleaned well like in todays games and tournaments.