Who is responsible....

iconcue said:
i didnt say my example was what was responsible for secondary market pricing. i was just using it to show that i think the the wrong party is making the majority of the profit in such a situation.
i also agree barry is a great guy.
what i was pointing out is that if he were to raise his prices to market he would be considered greedy and i don't agree with this way of thinking.
i think barry szamboti should make the lions share of the profit on a cue he makes as opposed to a broker. this could be said of any cue maker whos cue can be immediately turned for a profit.
Click to expand...

Ok.. well the only way this would happen is if there was A- No infinite wait, B- a plethora of Barry cues for sale, C- No collectors paying these prices for these cue. But since you have all of the above, you now have a "market" and the market price is shown.

Forget the fact we are brokers, is it OK for a regular Joe who waited on the list to make the same profit?

Your opinion is noted, but not realistic. Just like my opinion on loyalty...

Joe
 
iconcue said:
this would mean the mark made a profit before expenses of $3350. the only expense mark needs to sell the cue if even that is a web site. my web site cost me $35 a month.
Click to expand...

This note here is also very erronious. Cues are part of Marks business. So you would have to include all Marks expenses into the calculation of his "profit". Mark has an 18 table room, kitchen, warehouse space, utilities, and everything that goes along with the business. So you cannot say 35 dollars a month, covers it. Marks expenses, could cover Barrys, Pete Tascarellas, Paul Motteys, and probably a few other cuemakers at the same time.

Joe
 
classiccues said:
Ok.. well the only way this would happen is if there was A- No infinite wait, B- a plethora of Barry cues for sale, C- No collectors paying these prices for these cue. But since you have all of the above, you now have a "market" and the market price is shown.

Forget the fact we are brokers, is it OK for a regular Joe who waited on the list to make the same profit?

Your opinion is noted, but not realistic. Just like my opinion on loyalty...

Joe
Click to expand...
no, i don't think a regular joe who waited on the list should be able to make the same profit.
i'm saying cuemakers should be able to raise their prices somewhere closer to market to keep speculators out and so THEY are the ones that make the lions share of the profit for their own skills!
of course this only applies to a handful of makers.
 
classiccues said:
This note here is also very erronious. Cues are part of Marks business. So you would have to include all Marks expenses into the calculation of his "profit". Mark has an 18 table room, kitchen, warehouse space, utilities, and everything that goes along with the business. So you cannot say 35 dollars a month, covers it. Marks expenses, could cover Barrys, Pete Tascarellas, Paul Motteys, and probably a few other cuemakers at the same time.

Joe
Click to expand...
marks pool room expenses have no bearing on cue sale expenses. they would be considered different profit centers.
 
iconcue said:
marks pool room expenses have no bearing on cue sale expenses. they would be considered different profit centers.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately they aren't.. its one business. In owning a room, you don't have "profit" centers. You could try and break down table time / liquor sales / table sales etc.. but it all falls under one roof. You think if Mark cannot pay the rent he can tell his landlord his table time was slow, he cannot pay that portion of his pro rated rent? LOL

Joe (--wants to know what they put in the grits in bama
 
classiccues said:
Unfortunately they aren't.. its one business. In owning a room, you don't have "profit" centers. You could try and break down table time / liquor sales / table sales etc.. but it all falls under one roof. You think if Mark cannot pay the rent he can tell his landlord his table time was slow, he cannot pay that portion of his pro rated rent? LOL

Joe (--wants to know what they put in the grits in bama
Click to expand...
yes, they are. otherwise one would be subsidizing the other. to properly figure the profit they would have to be seperated.
 
iconcue said:
no, i don't think a regular joe who waited on the list should be able to make the same profit.
i'm saying cuemakers should be able to raise their prices somewhere closer to market to keep speculators out and so THEY are the ones that make the lions share of the profit for their own skills!
of course this only applies to a handful of makers.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.. but they aren't doing that. Actually I know one who is damn close. I also see alot of the lists dwindling because now people who cannot afford them cannot get on the list. Oh but wait.. that wouldn't be you, would it?

Joe (---I think maybe you want to get higher on some lists :)
 
iconcue said:
yes, they are. otherwise one would be subsidizing the other. to properly figure the profit they would have to be seperated.
Click to expand...

Thats not correct. Everything has to pay for one business, PTM in this case.
He does have parts of his business subsidizing other parts. Every business does, even mine.

But lets take your scenario.. that means all the overhead would be divided among all the groups. So 35 a month, is still not accurate. Cue sales is not limited to the internet, Mark does have a showroom / proshop.

Joe
 
classiccues said:
Fair enough.. but they aren't doing that. Actually I know one who is damn close. I also see alot of the lists dwindling because now people who cannot afford them cannot get on the list. Oh but wait.. that wouldn't be you, would it?

Joe (---I think maybe you want to get higher on some lists :)
Click to expand...
i don't know what you mean? :confused:
i thought i already was high on all the lists? :p
 
an illustration ...

My cousins's daughter started buying and selling jewelry
on Ebay. She bought some jewelry for $6 and $8 respectively
under a buyer's id, and sold it on Ebay under her seller's id.
The jewelry sold for $200 and $300 respectively. Now, is it
her fault she made so much profit? Is it unfair to the jewelry
maker or the seller before her that they made so little profit?
So, who's fault is it? Yep, the buyer for being so dumb as to
pay that much. What now is the market price for the jewelry?

If you have a $2,500 cue, and someone pays $6,850 for it, who's
fault is that? Someone with all the knowledge about the cue
might just tell that seller he was crazy.

This is just an example of our society's general attitude change
from 'Let the buyer beware' to 'Let the seller be responsible', so
when people don't exactly get what they thought they were,
they blame the seller instead of arming themselves with the
proper knowledge about the product before they bought it.
 
iconcue said:
i don't know what you mean? :confused:
i thought i already was high on all the lists? :p
Click to expand...

It means if SW asked 2500 for cues out of the box, people who can barely afford the 1400 would have to drop out. It also means you take away one attractive reason to buy that cue, resale. You will now lose money selling the cue.

I understand what you are saying... but do you think cuemakers are unhappy that they have a waiting list of 6-7years, constant cash flow? Why would they even care about secondary markets when they are making their money right away?

BTW I think you're high alright.. but I don't know if it contains to any list :)

Joe
 
classiccues said:
Thats not correct. Everything has to pay for one business, PTM in this case.
He does have parts of his business subsidizing other parts. Every business does, even mine.

But lets take your scenario.. that means all the overhead would be divided among all the groups. So 35 a month, is still not accurate. Cue sales is not limited to the internet, Mark does have a showroom / proshop.

Joe
Click to expand...
but it is fact that you don't even need website to be a broker, much less a showroom or a pool room. just look at the list of brokers you made. to figure a true profit for any portion of a business, and to know whether or not you should even stay in the business, it would have to be broken out and figured seperately as a profit center on it's own versus competitors.
 
classiccues said:
It means if SW asked 2500 for cues out of the box, people who can barely afford the 1400 would have to drop out. It also means you take away one attractive reason to buy that cue, resale. You will now lose money selling the cue.

I understand what you are saying... but do you think cuemakers are unhappy that they have a waiting list of 6-7years, constant cash flow? Why would they even care about secondary markets when they are making their money right away?

BTW I think you're high alright.. but I don't know if it contains to any list :)

Joe
Click to expand...
i said move closer to market value! not OVER it!
 
Snapshot9 said:
My cousins's daughter started buying and selling jewelry
on Ebay. She bought some jewelry for $6 and $8 respectively
under a buyer's id, and sold it on Ebay under her seller's id.
The jewelry sold for $200 and $300 respectively. Now, is it
her fault she made so much profit? Is it unfair to the jewelry
maker or the seller before her that they made so little profit?
So, who's fault is it? Yep, the buyer for being so dumb as to
pay that much. What now is the market price for the jewelry?

If you have a $2,500 cue, and someone pays $6,850 for it, who's
fault is that? Someone with all the knowledge about the cue
might just tell that seller he was crazy.

This is just an example of our society's general attitude change
from 'Let the buyer beware' to 'Let the seller be responsible', so
when people don't exactly get what they thought they were,
they blame the seller instead of arming themselves with the
proper knowledge about the product before they bought it.
Click to expand...

You're right. But in cues, especially this one, its about availability.

Look around the internet.. we have 2 Barry's for sale, Cueaddicts has 2, Dick has 0, Ken has 0.. I know Cueaddicts prices and they are all comperable. If our cue was played with, maybe we list it for 5.5k. Its still the market.

Joe (--I will go hit some balls with it.. and then reduce the price LOL
 
classiccues said:
OK.. here is a little poll..

Coming off of Pauly's thread on cue prices...

Ultimately who is responsible for the rise in secondary market cue prices on premium cues?

a- cuemakers and their waiting lists

b- Cuedealers

c- The people who PAY these prices and continue to drive the market up ie; collectors

d- all of the above

e - the Blue Book

Also post why you chose the answer.... if you want. I wasn't going to include pick d because its an easy way out.... Also remember this is a poll, not a flame fest (although I am sure this will go that way)

Joe (---curious to the "markets" opinion
Click to expand...


C.....you've included the "why" within your question.

If consumers were not willing to pay the prices, there would not be secondary market values higher than what the cuemakers charge. The consumer holds all of the power...plain and simple.

Sean
 
classiccues said:
You're right. But in cues, especially this one, its about availability.

Look around the internet.. we have 2 Barry's for sale, Cueaddicts has 2, Dick has 0, Ken has 0.. I know Cueaddicts prices and they are all comperable. If our cue was played with, maybe we list it for 5.5k. Its still the market.

Joe (--I will go hit some balls with it.. and then reduce the price LOL
Click to expand...
but the internet is not the only place cues are for sale
 
iconcue said:
but it is fact that you don't even need website to be a broker, much less a showroom or a pool room. just look at the list of brokers you made. to figure a true profit for any portion of a business, and to know whether or not you should even stay in the business, it would have to be broken out and figured seperately as a profit center on it's own versus competitors.
Click to expand...

But you didn't mention just ANY broker, you bought up Mark and he has expenses.

No it doesn't have to be broken out.. lets say I owned a pool hall, and I made just enough to stay open, but selling cues on the internet I made lets say theoretically $3500 a month. Should I close the pool hall? Or should I do both and enjoy both?

Joe (---keeping them both
 
classiccues said:
But you didn't mention just ANY broker, you bought up Mark and he has expenses.

No it doesn't have to be broken out.. lets say I owned a pool hall, and I made just enough to stay open, but selling cues on the internet I made lets say theoretically $3500 a month. Should I close the pool hall? Or should I do both and enjoy both?

Joe (---keeping them both
Click to expand...
you right! it doesnt HAVE to be broken out. businesses also don't HAVE to make a profit.
 
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